X-10 : High Resolution Linear Control Room Monitor
Meyer should have the most advanced mf loop in audio, at least by reputation and hard data.
They claim that of the advantages of adding their double 18's to go with the x-10 is headroom, and more distortion, which the x-10 doesn't have. The lack of MFB on the double 18s make the low end sound more like regular speakers.
"Also, because the
X-800's dual 18-inch drivers are
not tightly controlled by PSAC, they
retain the subtle timbral cues of
traditional subwoofers–a subjective
characteristic that many listeners
find familiar and pleasing."
Meyer should have the most advanced mf loop in audio, at least by reputation and hard data.
They claim that of the advantages of adding their double 18's to go with the x-10 is headroom, and more distortion, which the x-10 doesn't have. The lack of MFB on the double 18s make the low end sound more like regular speakers.
"Also, because the
X-800's dual 18-inch drivers are
not tightly controlled by PSAC, they
retain the subtle timbral cues of
traditional subwoofers–a subjective
characteristic that many listeners
find familiar and pleasing."
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Impressive work!!
David, would your DSP have enough horsepower to run a convolution along with the MF (by turning off the EQ section for example)? What sampling frequency is it running at?
David, would your DSP have enough horsepower to run a convolution along with the MF (by turning off the EQ section for example)? What sampling frequency is it running at?
Are they saying that adding the non-servo 18-inch units to their "servo" speakers gives you that homey old bass sound folks love... because of the distortion, boom, coloration, etc.?
Sounds to me like the same point of view as the folks who love triode amps and vinyl records - adds "warmth" they say. While others say it is their shortcomings that produce a sound that delights the adherents.
Ben
Sounds to me like the same point of view as the folks who love triode amps and vinyl records - adds "warmth" they say. While others say it is their shortcomings that produce a sound that delights the adherents.
Ben
This may well indeed happen but if matching is within +/-10% then distortion reduction should still occur because the devices are still very similar to each other. However their maybe a point where increasing the loop gain no longer shows the same reduction in distortion due to mismatch but if you can get 20 dB loop gain then you are still in business 😉
regards
david
The DSP has a built in FIR hardware accelerator with up to 32K taps and which runs independently of the dsp core. You could implement one 32K tap FIR or two 16K FIR's which gives plenty of resolution at the bottom end. I'm not sure what the limit is on the tap rate but hopefully it should be able to handle 48KHz which is the sampling rate of the servo engine.
regards
david
That is great! Will the user be able to load its FIR coefficient to the unit? What format will it need to be?
Using rePhase to implement EQ, linear-phase filters, and phase linearization using those 32k taps will be interesting 🙂
MF and convolution in the same unit, this is really neat!
Using rePhase to implement EQ, linear-phase filters, and phase linearization using those 32k taps will be interesting 🙂
MF and convolution in the same unit, this is really neat!
Could this system also be used for a midbass driver, for example in the 100Hz-1kHz range?
I have had good results with current drive in this range, with notable reduction in harmonic distortion, but your feedback system would probably do better in this regard, and bring other improvements...
I have had good results with current drive in this range, with notable reduction in harmonic distortion, but your feedback system would probably do better in this regard, and bring other improvements...
Well, when you buy a x-10 its presumed that your are making decisions on them. And some producers and clients, would like to hear cues similar to what they have been using for their entire career.
The fact is that they will not be boomy, they will I'm sure, still measure better than 99% of monitors/speakers.
I object to that kind of commercial double-talk on this forum.... not that it is the first such occurrence in this thread. In fact, my nose is starting to pick up a lot of commercial scent here.
If the add-on dual 18-inch drivers are giving old down-home love-that-bass "cues," it is because they are more distorted (AKA less accurate) than the MF bass they are meant to augment. Simple as that. Some electric guitarist love over-driving tube amps to get a sound they just looooove.
In the recording world you are talking about, some recording producers will do any kind of mischief to create sound they like (AKA as selling more copies). So I don't fault them for prefering worser speakers... even using car speakers, as the old urban myth has it. But posters here have purer motivations....... usually.
I have no commercial motivations of any sort in audio.
Ben
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Ben, you seem to be responding to something I didn't say. Boomy, means resonance when used to describe bass. I only said that it would measure better than almost all speakers, which is true.
There's no reason to think that they would be boomy. They will be less linear than the MF controlled 15" at high volumes, that's obvious from their copy.
13 years ago, Meyer claims to have also solved the problem of MF applied to a vented box, as well.
There's no reason to think that they would be boomy. They will be less linear than the MF controlled 15" at high volumes, that's obvious from their copy.
13 years ago, Meyer claims to have also solved the problem of MF applied to a vented box, as well.
Now THAT'S again what I meant by "commercial double-talk."
To me, "less linear" is sanitized double-talk for "boomy" and otherwise lousier.
Granted as a practical matter, a component can add certain benefits while subtracting other benefits. Moreover, some of these benefits are matters of taste or choice. But in assessing what are enforced trade-offs, let's stay clear on which is which and why. Don't think I'd boast about the wonders of less linear speakers as if they added a certain ineffable charm.
Ben
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It is traditional in past MF research is steer clear of the range north of very roughly 200 Hz. That is because the sound leaving the cone (let alone the mix of sound reaching your ears) is a complex mix of motions and phases from different parts of the cone. So precise control of the dust cap, as per most of these methods, will not closely track the driver's true output.
Any way, woofers are a bundle of compromises and art. But higher freq drivers not as much.
Maybe with new technology more piston-like cones and smaller sensors are available and so the historic enlargement of the feedback loop around the speakers can extend to 20 kHz.
Of course, I don't care about that myself since I use electrostatic panels from 110 Hz. They have the weight of air bearing on them to help their linearization.
Ben
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You describe a speaker you've never heard and don't seem to have any data on as boomy. Do you honestly think huge expensive drivers in a huge box and and full of custom electronics and amps from Meyer sound are going to be lousier and boomy compared to the best of whats out there now?
The point of MF is to linearize the output of a cone. All speakers suffer from non-linearity when driven closer to xmax. If you say all speakers are boomy and lousy, then that's your opinion, but there's not really a basis for it, IMO.
At low to moderate volumes, piston speakers are operating in a linear range, as they get louder they are less linear.
The point of MF is to linearize the output of a cone. All speakers suffer from non-linearity when driven closer to xmax. If you say all speakers are boomy and lousy, then that's your opinion, but there's not really a basis for it, IMO.
At low to moderate volumes, piston speakers are operating in a linear range, as they get louder they are less linear.
The Meyers X-10 is a full range 2 way ported studio monitor enclosure using PSAC (Pressure Sensing Active Control), though it has good output for a 15" woofer (probably around 125 dB peak at one meter) and better transient response than an electrostatic speaker, that output may not be enough to impress clients used to 140+ dB level in their cars, especially considering that clean bass does not sound as loud as distorted bass.
For those clients (not for critical monitoring) adding the X-800's dual 18" "traditional subwoofers" will simply add some ("at least 5 dB") of the gut rumbling experience they have grown used too.
Meyers understands there is no reason to add the expense of PSAC when you are basically looking for a bludgeon, but the copy writers would prefer you infer that fact rather than state it outright 😀.
I have a pair of 12" TAD TM1201H here that would probably fill the bill with its heavy polymer graphite cone, with no breakup sign that I could measure CSDs in the intended frequency range (and well past 1kHz).
Smaller 6" or 8" paper mix cones usually used in this frequency range would also probably work, albeit the weight of the accelerometer could become significant...
How did you measure different movement around parts of the cone?
And the way sound from different parts of the cone meet and add or interfere with one another, different at each wave-length?
Accurate to the degree you'd need to be able to say there's no confusion on the cone?
Long ago (and still today), we had a thing called lycopodium powder and I'd flash my semi-synchronized StroboTac* at it in a dark room watching the super-fine grains dancing on a cone. Fascinating.
MF makes the motion of the dust cap more closely correspond to the music signal. That's what it does whether VC-bridge, accelerometer, or capacitative.
Ben
*I still use that StroboTac for timing my motorcycle ignition. Great tool.
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I'll be Happy when I see it and it is some thing that all of us can use!
This seems to be one of those threads as to, Hey look what I have but i can't show you!
I think what you are doing is great, But,
This is DIY, I would like to do it too!
I have the ability to TI's greatest DSP's also.
I understand as to what work you have put in to your project, But one of the firist thing you said was,
"Yes it's aimed at diyers or OEMs etc who want to build high quality servo controlled (sub)woofers without requiring a PhD in electronics or electro-acoustics "
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...controlled-woofer-controller.html#post3529247
And then it went in to a discusion as to what has already been done.
How long is this going to go on!!!
Get With it Moderators!!!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...controlled-woofer-controller.html#post3530343
Many of us here has put 1000's amongst's 1000's hours in trying to figure out stuff, every thing I know that I have learned from this website I give back!
This seems to be one of those threads as to, Hey look what I have but i can't show you!
I think what you are doing is great, But,
This is DIY, I would like to do it too!
I have the ability to TI's greatest DSP's also.
I understand as to what work you have put in to your project, But one of the firist thing you said was,
"Yes it's aimed at diyers or OEMs etc who want to build high quality servo controlled (sub)woofers without requiring a PhD in electronics or electro-acoustics "
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...controlled-woofer-controller.html#post3529247
And then it went in to a discusion as to what has already been done.
How long is this going to go on!!!
Get With it Moderators!!!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...controlled-woofer-controller.html#post3530343
Many of us here has put 1000's amongst's 1000's hours in trying to figure out stuff, every thing I know that I have learned from this website I give back!
And it is no secret that I also stated the following right from the start !!
"This is a work in progress based on an initial prototype (REV:A) and nothing is set in concrete yet so I’d thought I’d share some of the preliminary results I have achieved thus far which look very promising."
And let me state from the outset that most of the ideas embodied in this invention has not been learned from this website or any other website for that matter. It is the culmination of many years research and in a lot of cases I have had to figure it out for myself because there has been so little written about it. Now I am in a position to unify this work into a single design which should be easy to use by most people.
Currently I am writing the DSP code and Windows app code because it is still not finished just like a lot of other projects you see on this forum which are a work in progress. I started this thread to get some feedback from others so that I can incorporate other ideas before I go to the next revision board and some of the feedback has been very useful.
If you want finished stuff to work with then maybe you should go to the Vendors Bazaar or commercial sections.
regards
david
"This is a work in progress based on an initial prototype (REV:A) and nothing is set in concrete yet so I’d thought I’d share some of the preliminary results I have achieved thus far which look very promising."
And let me state from the outset that most of the ideas embodied in this invention has not been learned from this website or any other website for that matter. It is the culmination of many years research and in a lot of cases I have had to figure it out for myself because there has been so little written about it. Now I am in a position to unify this work into a single design which should be easy to use by most people.
Currently I am writing the DSP code and Windows app code because it is still not finished just like a lot of other projects you see on this forum which are a work in progress. I started this thread to get some feedback from others so that I can incorporate other ideas before I go to the next revision board and some of the feedback has been very useful.
If you want finished stuff to work with then maybe you should go to the Vendors Bazaar or commercial sections.
regards
david
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