Most people buying a karousel are swapping out old bearings, I'd suggest new circus vs carousel are much closer.
Aah, how very interesting. 👍 I wonder why the Tranqu guys decided they would make it non fully floating?
To be honest,
I think Linn have a great marketing strategy.
I personally think £600 for a turntable main bearing is an outrage.
I'd rather spend my money on Lps and listen to them rather than my bearing.
Well, I already have more than 4000 LPs.
I suggest that when you got 4000 LPs, you better get a good vacuum machine and spending 1000 bucks on a turntable bearing is not out of the ordinary. Because, I don't want to be hearing the bearing.
Old bearing... maybe... my turntable although old is not used so much. Perhaps ten LPs per month. And I have it maintained every other year, so its tear and wear is minimal.
Magnetic bearing... you still have lateral run on movement, right? So the shaft is going to be making lateral contact... how do you control that then?
I suggest that when you got 4000 LPs, you better get a good vacuum machine and spending 1000 bucks on a turntable bearing is not out of the ordinary. Because, I don't want to be hearing the bearing.
Old bearing... maybe... my turntable although old is not used so much. Perhaps ten LPs per month. And I have it maintained every other year, so its tear and wear is minimal.
Magnetic bearing... you still have lateral run on movement, right? So the shaft is going to be making lateral contact... how do you control that then?
I've found washing mine in the sink in luke warm water and a suitable cleaner, dabbing a very fine bristle brush round them works a treat both for static and removing dust and costs next to nothing (mainly time). I handle them by the edges so fingerprint/grease marks are negligible.
If using a vacuum cleaner is your preferred method that's great, but it's not for everyone and it's costly to initiate. I also have thousands of lps, so just do them in batches when I feel like it.
As for bearings, they work on a skin of oil, if it's the right oil it more or less negates wear. Lateral contact on Linn bearings is controlled by this skin of oil also but has a much better bearing guide length. So like you said maintenance of that bearing oil is crucial to negate lateral movement.
It's been my experience that most people upgrading their main bearings, do it not because the bearing is worn, mine have both been bought from people upgrading to the seemingly next best bearing. Their original bearings were not worn I've checked the ones I bought and there's absolutely no wear on them, and looking at the bearing design, you would have to seriously abuse it to wear it at all, if of course you have been maintaining the oil.
Spending money does not make everything work correctly, you have to be involved with your turntable and love caring for fettling it. Otherwise it's just another piece of equipment doing a job.
If using a vacuum cleaner is your preferred method that's great, but it's not for everyone and it's costly to initiate. I also have thousands of lps, so just do them in batches when I feel like it.
As for bearings, they work on a skin of oil, if it's the right oil it more or less negates wear. Lateral contact on Linn bearings is controlled by this skin of oil also but has a much better bearing guide length. So like you said maintenance of that bearing oil is crucial to negate lateral movement.
It's been my experience that most people upgrading their main bearings, do it not because the bearing is worn, mine have both been bought from people upgrading to the seemingly next best bearing. Their original bearings were not worn I've checked the ones I bought and there's absolutely no wear on them, and looking at the bearing design, you would have to seriously abuse it to wear it at all, if of course you have been maintaining the oil.
Spending money does not make everything work correctly, you have to be involved with your turntable and love caring for fettling it. Otherwise it's just another piece of equipment doing a job.
Our water here in SoCal is hard, so washing in the sink is a non starter.
Using distilled water with a bit of cleaner is the best way to do it -for us. My machine does an splendid job. I've had it for over 20 years and it's still going strong.
Currently, I'm thinking of getting an ultrasonic cleaner.
Yes, an LP12 is sort of like Grand Dad's Ax... over the years you change most everything.
Using distilled water with a bit of cleaner is the best way to do it -for us. My machine does an splendid job. I've had it for over 20 years and it's still going strong.
Currently, I'm thinking of getting an ultrasonic cleaner.
Yes, an LP12 is sort of like Grand Dad's Ax... over the years you change most everything.
Yeah, I sometimes use distilled water with cleaner if I feel like bothering (or have an ultra vigilant day) but the water here in Derbyshire is soft anyway.
I've read some very good reports about ultrasonic cleaners, but I doubt my vinyl ever gets so dirty that I need one. I hardly ever buy second hand vinyl anymore as most older bands (Pink Floyd, Beatles etc) the represses are better.
I usually work through cleaning my Lps on an on going basis and mostly they sound fine. I also stick them in decent MOFI type covers from new.
I've read some very good reports about ultrasonic cleaners, but I doubt my vinyl ever gets so dirty that I need one. I hardly ever buy second hand vinyl anymore as most older bands (Pink Floyd, Beatles etc) the represses are better.
I usually work through cleaning my Lps on an on going basis and mostly they sound fine. I also stick them in decent MOFI type covers from new.
Hi Deano,
Cheeky I know, but do you have the dimensions of where the spring hole needs to be to balance them out? I know you mentioned 20mm and I can kind of guestimate where, but would be great to get it right first time. Thanks
Hi Folks,
Can anyone explain why it's a good reason to solid fix the arm board to the sub chassis? From reading through threads it seems to be something to do with sound detail, is that correct?
My thinking is that fixing soft lets the bearing noise (if any) remain in the sub chassis and not transfer to the arm. Not sure if that's the way it works or not, can anyone clarify for me?
Thanks in advance.
Can anyone explain why it's a good reason to solid fix the arm board to the sub chassis? From reading through threads it seems to be something to do with sound detail, is that correct?
My thinking is that fixing soft lets the bearing noise (if any) remain in the sub chassis and not transfer to the arm. Not sure if that's the way it works or not, can anyone clarify for me?
Thanks in advance.
It's quite simple, Pm.
The original pressed-steel LP12 subchassis had bad 'ringing' problems - so Linn's solution was to connect the armboard to the subchassis by 3x pissy little screws ... to provide a lossy connection between the subchassis and the armboard.
This was done so that sub-chassis vibrations didn't get into the arm. Unfortunately, the result of this was that ... there wasn't a rigid connection between arm and platter - hence the LP12 didn't stack up in terms of groove detail retrieval as other, solid-plinth TTs (which had a rigid connection between arm and platter).
Then Linn introduced the Keel - which had the armboard locked to the subchassis (as it was all one piece). This (aluminium) subchassis did not have the vibration problems of the pressed-metal subchassis - and so delivered all the detail retrieval that was previously lost with the 3 pissy little screws. 🙂
Hi
Thanks for your reply.
Sorry If I sound a bit thick, but I'm using a different sub chassis 10mm alloy, with a 10mm alloy arm board.
I know Linn made the Keel out of solid billet and this is all one piece but I'm not too sure why this would make detail retrieval better?
Is it something I'm missing regarding the bearing and arm connection and the solid connection being somehow better? This is the bit I'm not really understanding
I'm currently using a lossy connection using 4mm sorbothane between the arm board and sub frame also under the bolt base washers, albeit much less lossy than Linn's screw fixings, as I'm using 5mm stainless bolts to hold it in place. Detail retrieval seems pretty good like this, but I'm still wondering if solid mounting would make it better and the reason why.
My current thinking is to isolate any vibes or resonance from the sub platter and bearing from the arm board and arm.
I'm just about to dismantle my Linn and try the new sub frame so I guess I could try either and hear for myself.
God damn! Just answered my own question!
Sorry about that. Thanks for your attention and reply, I appreciate it.
Hi again andyr,
Thanks for your reply.
Sorry If I sound a bit thick, but I'm using a different sub chassis 10mm alloy, with a 10mm alloy arm board.
I know Linn made the Keel out of solid billet and this is all one piece but I'm not too sure why this would make detail retrieval better?
Is it something I'm missing regarding the bearing and arm connection and the solid connection being somehow better? This is the bit I'm not really understanding
I'm currently using a lossy connection using 4mm sorbothane between the arm board and sub frame also under the bolt base washers, albeit much less lossy than Linn's screw fixings, as I'm using 5mm stainless bolts to hold it in place. Detail retrieval seems pretty good like this, but I'm still wondering if solid mounting would make it better and the reason why.
My current thinking is to isolate any vibes or resonance from the sub platter and bearing from the arm board and arm.
I'm just about to dismantle my Linn and try the new sub frame so I guess I could try either and hear for myself.
God damn! Just answered my own question!
Sorry about that. Thanks for your attention and reply, I appreciate it.
I coated the underside of mine with SR500 anti-vibration compound. That fixed the ringing. Also have baltic birch armboard with larger screws for my Jelco tonearm.
jeff
Interesting... I'm trying to avoid spending the money on a Keel.
My LP12 sits on Trampolin 2 feet, on a Target TT5, spiked to a the floor which is on the slab. So far I have not noticed much, if any "ringing", as the table sits on a very stable stand and vibrations seem to be "sucked" away. I can walk, jump in front of it, and the tonearm sits still. No sounds coming out of the cartridge at all.
I've been looking for a low mileage Ekos SE instead and/or a Lingo 4 ( I got a Lingo right now ). Everything bought off the used market, naturally.
I'm I doing it backwards?
My LP12 sits on Trampolin 2 feet, on a Target TT5, spiked to a the floor which is on the slab. So far I have not noticed much, if any "ringing", as the table sits on a very stable stand and vibrations seem to be "sucked" away. I can walk, jump in front of it, and the tonearm sits still. No sounds coming out of the cartridge at all.
I've been looking for a low mileage Ekos SE instead and/or a Lingo 4 ( I got a Lingo right now ). Everything bought off the used market, naturally.
I'm I doing it backwards?
Mine is on a steel shelf bolted to the wall with 6mm toughened glass. Has a 10mm acrylic baseboard with 15mm thick sorbothane feet and then on a Townsend seismic sink. No lid or anything to rattle so external vibrations are not an issue even with loud music playing as my speakers are in front of the turntable.
It's the internals I'm trying to control, it works fine with what I have at the moment, just always seems like I can get it better, and some folks reckon metal to metal connections on the arm board/subframe brings out more detail.
I'm going to try both on the new subframe while I have it on the shelf above so I can work on it more easily.
I'll post results (if anyone's interested) after I've tried both (it will be subjective as always) or (by ear) as I haven't got any electronic testing stuff. I do have a good ear for detail though, as does my musician wife, and she's brutally honest.
BTW, I got a really nice cover for my LP12 last year. No more using a towel to cover the dustcover. Which, btw, at 26 years old, still looks new.
https://www.digitaldeckcovers.com/index.php?route=product/search&search=linn lp12
https://www.digitaldeckcovers.com/index.php?route=product/search&search=linn lp12
I'm not sure there's any real run out on the lp12 bearing. We mounted a surface probe to the subchassis to check run out at the rim, there was essentially nothing on the edge of the rim and maybe only a few 100ths of a mm vertically on the top surface
When I said "better detail retrieval" - I was comparing the Keel with the pressed-steel subchassis.
I have no idea how your solid alloy subchassis & armboard compare to the Keel but I would say the one-piece nature of the Keel means there is a rigid connection between arm and platter - and this rigid connection (instead of a lossy one) means all the groove information gets into the cartridge.
Any time you have a lossy connection between arm and platter ... you lose groove information.
OK... so should I spring for the Keel before anything else? I got an Ittok (black) in very good shape and a Lingo. Since I got the Trampolin 2 and Karousel... the Keel seems to be the logic thing to do.... work on the foundation before plunking money on the foo foo stuff we can all see:
"Look! Titanium! Ooh! Aah! " vs.. "Where did all that money go? I don't see a difference!"
"Look! Titanium! Ooh! Aah! " vs.. "Where did all that money go? I don't see a difference!"
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Hi again,
Yes, people keep saying that, but to me it's a repeated cliche, evidence seems sparse to say the least.
I'm still not sure how any groove information gets lost despite soft connecting being called lossy (another cliche).
Surely all you want the arm/cartridge to pick up is the record groove. If it has more than 1.75 kg of metal connected directly to it, how can that possibly help the arm retrieve more detail. You're intruding the arm to the turntable mechanics and any noise generated from them aren't you?
I'm just curious about the reasoning and evidence to back this statement up, but like I said I'm about to try both anyway so may well be able to explain it myself when I've analysed it.
I personally think data retrieval is via the arm and cartridge and nothing to do with the mechanics excepting to keep it as far away from them as possible.
Thanks for your input though. I do appreciate ideas.