I don't.
I have a 20 year old Marantz PM 7001 KI which has a very nice phono stage. I tried an iFi Audio Zen Phono V3 Desktop Phono Stage and it was crap compared to the Marantz so I sent it back.
I have an Ortofon M2 Black moving magnet that works really very well with this set up and haven't really ever thought about moving coil carts, well I have thought about them, but I'm not shelling out for a phono stage just so so I can run one. I thought the iFi may introduce me to them but was disappointed with the result with the moving magnet. I'd rather shell out for better analogue amp like the Marantz M30 which includes a Moving coil switchable phono amp.
I din't really notice much difference with the sorbothane, under the Linn it still pretty sounded the same, but now you mention base, it maybe wasn't as tight. I'll give it try tomorrow and see if I can pinpoint what's different if anything. Thanks for the direction of where to look.
I have my Roksan radius V on oak shelves, it doesn't sound too good, especially up against the Linn. I've pretty much scrapped the Roksan except I may keep the Nima arm and try and do something similar to my AR "The turntable" as I'm doing with the Linn. Should be a better match up.
Is it being a bit cheeky to ask what those dimensions are?
Mainly the spring holes as you've altered them for the weight distribution and bearing hole. I Could probably work the rest out for myself as I'll only be using one arm, one motor.
I know you've put shedloads of work into the design so won't be disappointed if you tell me to F--- O-- ha ha. Just that I'm looking at a Cirkus with inner platter to try my own DIY build.
NP, Pm - I'll send you a PM, later.
Only too happy to share the design ... so that there will be more siblings on the planet! 🙂 Currently, apart from mine - only v1 is alive ... at a friend of mine's. I did send the design off to a couple of people in the USofA ... but I don't think they ever bothered to go ahead. 🙁
Your dimensions will be quite a bit different to mine, given:
* just one arm
* and (probably) a 9" arm - so you don't have to cantilever the arm-mounting, like I had to.
Note, the motor is off-board ... so it adds no 'weight' to the chassis.
The vital piece of IP is an Excel spreadsheet I created, in order to be able to equalise the weight resting on each spring. So I think you'd better send me a PM ... with your email address - so I can send it to you. 🙂
Obviously not - just like my LP12, supplied with a DV505 arm (in 1979) wasn't a DV TT ... it was an LP12! 🙄
And fitting a Benz LP to the arm ... still didn't change the fact that it was an LP12.
To go further - I would suggest that:
* given an LP12 with a Radikal DC motor fitted - instead of the original Premotec - is still "an LP12"
*.using 3rd party plinths/top-plate/bearing/inner-platter/sub-chassis and motor controller on an LP12 still makes it an LP12 - albeit one that might sound a bit different to most others.
Whereas, mounting a Linn bearing in a solid plinth - even if you used a Linn arm - would make it into a "non-LP12"!
So, as I pointed out earlier.
It's the foundation that makes the table... the chassis, the bearing and the motor.
Many would also argue that the plinth, in the case of the LP12, is the outer wood "base", but I'd argue that in the case of the LP12 it's the internal chassis. Hence your Skeletal is pushing it a bit as your chassis is not a Linn, but a variation of it.
And you have removed one (many) of the idiosyncrasies of the LP12... how did you tie the tonearm cable, huh?
That also answers a question I asked earlier... should I do the Keel or the Lingo 4 or the Ekos next. Seems to me, that after the Karousel, the next logical step is the Keel... expensive as it is, it might just be the best upgrade ( I got an Ittok -black!- and a Lingo ).
Gulp! Time to start saving.
It's the foundation that makes the table... the chassis, the bearing and the motor.
Many would also argue that the plinth, in the case of the LP12, is the outer wood "base", but I'd argue that in the case of the LP12 it's the internal chassis. Hence your Skeletal is pushing it a bit as your chassis is not a Linn, but a variation of it.
And you have removed one (many) of the idiosyncrasies of the LP12... how did you tie the tonearm cable, huh?
That also answers a question I asked earlier... should I do the Keel or the Lingo 4 or the Ekos next. Seems to me, that after the Karousel, the next logical step is the Keel... expensive as it is, it might just be the best upgrade ( I got an Ittok -black!- and a Lingo ).
Gulp! Time to start saving.
Whereas I would say it's the chassis, the bearing ... and the fact that's it's got springs and a belt drive. 🙂
Sure the 'internal chassis' (as you call it - I use the term 'sub-chassis') changes the sound - viz. Keel vs. pressed-steel ... but so does the wood used in the plinth.
I suppose my original version (because it was within the bounds of a home workshop) using aluminium C-section bought from the hardware shop - you would call closer to the spirit of an LP12? Fair enough - except the Panzerholtz (or to be exact ... the variant of it that I used) has better damping properties than aluminium.
And I note that the latest plinth which Linn has produced ... is made from their variation on Panzerholtz! 😵
One arm (the back one - a Magneplanar 'Unitrac') has a right-angled DIN plug, with the arm cable just falling down to the perspex base. With the front arm, the arm wires exit the pivot housing vertically (through a guide) - so no P-clip needed! 🙂
Given a rigid connection between arm and platter is desired ... I would suggest a Keel should be your next upgrade. (Though I have no idea how the various 3rd party offerings compare!) This will give you a major upgrade - whereas changing motor controllers will deliver a lesser improvement. And in terms of motors ... you might like to consider the 'Zeus' AC motor from the UK firm Valhalla Electronics (or something like that). This has:
1. phase control - which allows you to minimise motor vibrations
2. Hz adjustment - for speed control
3. and voltage control - which affects 'drive'.
Note: #3 is pointless without #1.
And you can keep your current motor! 🙂
When I wrote "motor" I pretty much figured out the motor/belt/spring suspension.
What's this about the Linn version of their Panzerholtz?
I read about that material and it seems quite good. No ringing at all but very stiff. So, I guess it's internally damped.
How does that help to dissipate vibrations away from the cartridge?
Perhaps a panzerholz Keel ( Panzerkeel? ) might be in the offing?
What's this about the Linn version of their Panzerholtz?
I read about that material and it seems quite good. No ringing at all but very stiff. So, I guess it's internally damped.
How does that help to dissipate vibrations away from the cartridge?
Perhaps a panzerholz Keel ( Panzerkeel? ) might be in the offing?
AIUI, they tried standard 'Panzerholtz' - which I understand is birch ply injected with resin under pressure - but de3cided they needed to "make it better". 🙄
Maybe it absorbs them, instead? You would have to ask Linn!
Hah - may well be! 😀 But it's hard to see how they would ditch the 'Keel'.
Does any of this matter? It's his own design he can call it what he likes. I'm guessing if you're idea starts with a Linn, it's a Linn.
Mine doesn't have a Linn sub chassis, arm board, tonearm cable, base board, power supply, but it's in a Linn plinth, does that make mine not a Linn? I'm not really sure whether it matters or not. It's DIY and whatever people do is of interest to me. Ideas are where it's at, questioning reasoning, getting/giving advice about modding is really the core ideals of a DIY site I thought.
Hi Andyr,
Dropped the deck down with spikes onto the seismic sink and it definitely shrinks the sound stage (I can tell I have speakers), the bass isn't as extended, separation also seems less (sound stage isn't as clear) and a bit it's a bit muddled in the mids. It definitely feels more restricted with the spikes.
I'm thinking (just theory) that the sorbothane feet being quite large 50mm round and 15mm thick, are letting the vibration/resonance from the plinth/motor dissipate into the sorbothane. That's actually what I thought sorbothane was for but will stand corrected on that.
I'm about to try out the sorbothane onto the seismic sink and I'll go from there. I recorded a couple of tracks while I had it running, so can record again and compare quite easily.
I really need two decks to do this properly ha ha.
Hi again folks,
Well with Andy R's version of his skelatilinn I was inspired, very inspired.
Firstly by the out of the box idea, getting rid of the limitations of the aesthetics of what a turntable is meant to look like, and secondly by his obvious knowledge base.
I would like to extend my thanks and appreciation to Andy R for his design and support throughout my build. We don't agree on everything which is why mine is very different in approach, but the results are pretty much the same, downright astounding.
I'm only posting the one pic as it isn't quite finished aesthetically but is finished as far as sound quality goes.
It consists of a home made alloy chassis and arm board, no suspension (ie springs), Linn Peak bearing (the older white lined one), a Tiger Paw tranquility. Vinyl passion electronics, Roksan NIma arm (Mk 1), Roksan HDC 3 tonearm cable, Ortofon black cart and stylus, Linn airpax motor (mounted separately) 10 silicone washers, a fair few stainless steel metric bolts and a few bits of carbon fibre sheet, it's mounted on a wall shelf on 6mm glass.
My background engineering is via motorbikes, hence the alloy plate fabrication and I would think anyone with engineering in their background could build something similar to this fairly easily.
In my humble opinion, the sound is 50 light years ahead of what I could produce using either the Linn LP 12 or the Roksan Radius V I started with.
My Lp 12 is now a donor for my next chassis which is already inside the Linn.
Suggestions of a name for this would be useful if anyone has any ideas?
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@Phonomod
What a superb machine... Congrats!
Good to see that you have ditched the laterally unstable LINN springs, in favour of silicone washers.
We did the same thing on our beloved LP12 a few years back - fitting two-piece, silicone mushrooms, in place of the springs - and finally managed to get rid of the LP12's constant (minor) platter-speed variation.
What a difference it made to the sound!
With the springs gone, it also got rid of IGD and allowed us to reduce VTF by an additional .5g - without compromising tracking - so our vinyl is thanking us. Our daily driver cart - the DENON DL-110 now runs very happily at just 1.4g VTF!
[Note: IMHO, if you have not heard a DL-110 through a premium MC phono stage and loaded at around1K... you haven't really heard all it...]
No two LPs sound the same, but I would encourage anyone with any level of LP12 - even an old re-button original - to ditch the springs and install the silicone mushrooms, and enjoy the best sound their iteration of the LP12 is ever going to generate. It will NOT change the present character of the sound of your LP12; you will just get more of what you really love about it.
This is a cheap, easy and totally reversible upgrade that still provides effective isolating suspension - but cures the other ills that have plagued the LP12 since its inception.
If and when you try it, do report your own findings...
What a superb machine... Congrats!
Good to see that you have ditched the laterally unstable LINN springs, in favour of silicone washers.
We did the same thing on our beloved LP12 a few years back - fitting two-piece, silicone mushrooms, in place of the springs - and finally managed to get rid of the LP12's constant (minor) platter-speed variation.
What a difference it made to the sound!
With the springs gone, it also got rid of IGD and allowed us to reduce VTF by an additional .5g - without compromising tracking - so our vinyl is thanking us. Our daily driver cart - the DENON DL-110 now runs very happily at just 1.4g VTF!
[Note: IMHO, if you have not heard a DL-110 through a premium MC phono stage and loaded at around1K... you haven't really heard all it...]
No two LPs sound the same, but I would encourage anyone with any level of LP12 - even an old re-button original - to ditch the springs and install the silicone mushrooms, and enjoy the best sound their iteration of the LP12 is ever going to generate. It will NOT change the present character of the sound of your LP12; you will just get more of what you really love about it.
This is a cheap, easy and totally reversible upgrade that still provides effective isolating suspension - but cures the other ills that have plagued the LP12 since its inception.
If and when you try it, do report your own findings...
Hi Tony,
I note the DL-110 has a coil impedance of 160 ohms. I'm sure 1K loading sounds 'more solid ' than, say, 47K ... but have you ever tried 15 or 16K loading?
Hey Andy!
Not yet. I certainly intend to. Suitable Y-connectors are still on my radar. 😊👍
Conversely, I have tried 100R - as it is a stock setting on our solid-state TRICHORD Delphini MC phono stage - and was shocked at how good it sounded, particularly in terms of navigating worn vinyl.
It sounds counterintuitive and breaks all the accepted rules - I know - but for anyone playing worn vinyl, 100R loading on the DENON DL-110 is a must try.
Not yet. I certainly intend to. Suitable Y-connectors are still on my radar. 😊👍
Conversely, I have tried 100R - as it is a stock setting on our solid-state TRICHORD Delphini MC phono stage - and was shocked at how good it sounded, particularly in terms of navigating worn vinyl.
It sounds counterintuitive and breaks all the accepted rules - I know - but for anyone playing worn vinyl, 100R loading on the DENON DL-110 is a must try.
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