Yes, they will.
Primarily large format compression drivers are discussed in this thread.
From my experience, differences between such drivers can be obvious and substantial, even if they are produced by the same manufacturer.
RCF ND840/850s are fine from about 700-800Hz, but the ND940/950 are better if you want to cross lower.
Moreover, the Faital Pro Titanium drivers sound different from their Ketone Polymer brothers.
Agreed, still the sound (signature) of a Faital HF201 shall be clearly distinguishable from a BMS or B&C coaxial.
Surprisingly enough, the HF201 is discernible from the RCF ND950, even if both are optizimed for the horns used (JABO vs 2380a).
I think domestic conditions are better suited to discerning (subtle) differences than PA environments.
Last edited:
Camplo, thank you. This article is very interesting for me since I have been switching back and forth between linear phase and minimal phase FIR. I kind of agree with Bruno's comment, but what I actually have found is pre-echo is audible even if the FIR step is extremely long. The problem of the pre-echo is it is utterly inaudible until we happen to realize it, and it took several years for me to realize it. The truth is, there is nothing free in audio world.
Bruno Putzeys
Linear phase is indeed of tertiary importance at best. With passive filters any attempt to design a speaker with "better" phase response is misguided because in a passive design this tiny improvement comes at a heavy cost in terms of compromised off axis behaviour, distortion, power handling, or more likely, all three. It's simply not a good trade. But if you're asking "should we reopen this question now we have DSP" I'd say yes, because all of a sudden the downside has become exactly zero. Even if the audible improvement is quite small, it is not zero. When there's no cost, even a small improvement is worth throwing in.
Last edited:
Camplo, thank you. This article is very interesting for me since I have been switching back and forth between linear phase and minimal phase FIR. I kind of agree with Bruno's comment, but what I actually have found is pre-echo is audible even if the FIR step is extremely long. The problem of the pre-echo is it is utterly inaudible until we happen to realize it, and it took several years for me to realize it. The truth is, there is nothing free in audio world.
[/I]
Hi plasnu,
My experience fwiw...I've only heard pre-ringing when the filter is very long.
And I agree, once heard, it's audible, particulary when there is silence right before a big transient...almost like a pre-echo.
But i never hear it with shorter filters...by that i mean anything less than say about 4k taps at 48kHz.
And really, the only reason we would ever want more taps than that is for work under well under 100Hz....sub range.
What i've learned to do for sub range, is go ahead and use however many taps it takes, but only when the sub is driven by its own output channel, and is truly a sub only..not like a 15" for example, being used in a 2 or 3 way..
Then cut back on the other channels' taps, getting down below 4k taps, and use delay on those channels to get timing back in line with the sub channel.
I was using the same high number of taps on all output channels, 16-65k, simply to keep time alignments easy. = pre-ringing.
But taking the time to use delay to keep tap count down in higher frequency passbands has = no pre-ringing.
Sub alone just doesn't have enough spectral content to hear any I guess.
Camplo, thank you. This article is very interesting for me since I have been switching back and forth between linear phase and minimal phase FIR. I kind of agree with Bruno's comment, but what I actually have found is pre-echo is audible even if the FIR step is extremely long. The problem of the pre-echo is it is utterly inaudible until we happen to realize it, and it took several years for me to realize it. The truth is, there is nothing free in audio world.
Bruno Putzeys
Linear phase is indeed of tertiary importance at best. With passive filters any attempt to design a speaker with "better" phase response is misguided because in a passive design this tiny improvement comes at a heavy cost in terms of compromised off axis behaviour, distortion, power handling, or more likely, all three. It's simply not a good trade. But if you're asking "should we reopen this question now we have DSP" I'd say yes, because all of a sudden the downside has become exactly zero. Even if the audible improvement is quite small, it is not zero. When there's no cost, even a small improvement is worth throwing in.
Yes, the article is pretty clear and should form the basis of discussions (and decisions) on loudspeakers and EQ.
The 5MR450 has a breakup at 7.7khz that is slightly annoying and noticeable. Mounted in small sealed boxes, a simple passive filter can fix this to a large extent, and in this setup it doesn't need any other EQ
Mounted in large horns changes things, and I haven't had the time to work out a passive solution, so i am using DSP for now
PRV 5MR450-NDY for FAST/WAW applications
PRV 5MR450-NDY for FAST/WAW applications
Mounted in large horns changes things, and I haven't had the time to work out a passive solution, so i am using DSP for now
PRV 5MR450-NDY for FAST/WAW applications
PRV 5MR450-NDY for FAST/WAW applications
Attachments
The best sounding subs need a solid box... - Sand box enclosure.... I like how he did his bracing. His sand is only 3/8" thick. I think I could do something like 1/4" or 3/8" baltic birch walls with 1/2" sand and get good results. Honesly, I'm not sure if I need to go this far...I might be fine with just well braced mdf or baltic birch.
Last edited:
I didn't read the whole thread but it seems like you'd want to minimize coupling from inner to outer layers- get rid of the ribs inside the sand-cavity and it might perform better still.
How to Create Models Larger than Your 3D Printer’s Build Volume | Formlabs
=)
YouTube
I'm so excited to begin on the horns! As soon as Don K puts the finishing touches on the model and passes it to me I can begin working on the creation of the print program.
I've been studying materials and keep making no discoveries everyday. The enclosure will likely be made out of baltic birch, since the local hardware store carries it and it seems to be recommended over MDF. Its crazy how long it can take to make a single box but I'm going to do most of the work from home this time so it should go fast.
=)
YouTube
I'm so excited to begin on the horns! As soon as Don K puts the finishing touches on the model and passes it to me I can begin working on the creation of the print program.
I've been studying materials and keep making no discoveries everyday. The enclosure will likely be made out of baltic birch, since the local hardware store carries it and it seems to be recommended over MDF. Its crazy how long it can take to make a single box but I'm going to do most of the work from home this time so it should go fast.
Last edited:
@camplo - just trying to catch up. (hopefully, I won't get sent to the corner to reflect on this )
There can be refinements on this horn: Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Did you want a smaller version ? Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Then there is another two from @docali at Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way? _and_ Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
So I need some guidance on which one ? I can provide the model sim as well as a finer mesh for printing it.
If you need to experiment with printing a horn why not start will a small one and save some PLA?
)There can be refinements on this horn: Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Did you want a smaller version ? Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Then there is another two from @docali at Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way? _and_ Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
So I need some guidance on which one ? I can provide the model sim as well as a finer mesh for printing it.
If you need to experiment with printing a horn why not start will a small one and save some PLA?
Desktop, i7-2700K (8 threads, 3.5Ghz) with 16GB RAM and SSD. It is sufficient for most sims until they get very large like these last horns which would benefit from a PC upgrade. My PC is still fine for everything else I do.
The system needs sufficient cooling to run at 100% load for several hours otherwise the CPU will throttle back as it heats up.
P.S. Many thanks for posting all the related material. Very interesting reading.
I mean, you are running the show at this point. My life is sort of not on the same page as everyone else, I do seasonal work, so right now,(not working) I stare this screen for ~23hrs a day, logging in research hours and war thunder lol.
The drba_jmlc_150_hvdiff has been seen in good light. I remember how we came to this design and I think its a good one, looking at other designs, given how big this one is, I don't know if we'd be able to have a horn that plays so low but also plays wider but without increasing the horn. Starting with a smaller size is wise but I really like the design was thinking why not print one at a smaller size for actual use, as a wide polar alternative option to the big horn. A 350hz one maybe?
I'm not rushing anything, I've been able to do a lot of research in the space between. Thank you for your help, can't say it enough =)
The drba_jmlc_150_hvdiff has been seen in good light. I remember how we came to this design and I think its a good one, looking at other designs, given how big this one is, I don't know if we'd be able to have a horn that plays so low but also plays wider but without increasing the horn. Starting with a smaller size is wise but I really like the design was thinking why not print one at a smaller size for actual use, as a wide polar alternative option to the big horn. A 350hz one maybe?
I'm not rushing anything, I've been able to do a lot of research in the space between. Thank you for your help, can't say it enough =)