Thanks ZM. I think my question may have been somewhat confusing.
I am familiar with the gate stopper anti oscillation thingie but I thought that was only applicable to the upper Jfet that uses R31-100r connected to In.
Why the R32-100r on the lower Jfet that is used to connect its Gate to Source for ccs purpose? Anti oscillation here too?
Yes on Borbely. New Frontiers article on Jfets. Figure 15c.
I am familiar with the gate stopper anti oscillation thingie but I thought that was only applicable to the upper Jfet that uses R31-100r connected to In.
Why the R32-100r on the lower Jfet that is used to connect its Gate to Source for ccs purpose? Anti oscillation here too?
Yes on Borbely. New Frontiers article on Jfets. Figure 15c.
yes
lower ones are working as CCS, which is exactly the same arrangement you're measuring them in, when matching by Idss
though, matching made with 0R/nonexistent source resistor, logically
thought - Borbely did all of his with (now) preciousssss TO92 Toshibas, while snake bit me with modern smd Toshibas
I know that I never had wakoo behavior with TO92, simply pushed in 3-pin socket for matching
Hello everyone. I have to poke at the thread a bit as I am preparing.
From a technical perspective, if each phase is on a separate toroidal core, can or will this affect the signal and channel separation in a positive manor ?
From a technical perspective, if each phase is on a separate toroidal core, can or will this affect the signal and channel separation in a positive manor ?
clarify question
by default, each channel is having fully separate PSU/shunt reg, fed with own 10-20VA xformer
straightforward secondary arrangement is 30Vac-CT (center-tapped) but you can make that also from 2*15Vac secondaries
early version of Iron Pumpkins had separate channel pcbs, current one is one big Motherboard, but still fully dual mono
by default, each channel is having fully separate PSU/shunt reg, fed with own 10-20VA xformer
straightforward secondary arrangement is 30Vac-CT (center-tapped) but you can make that also from 2*15Vac secondaries
early version of Iron Pumpkins had separate channel pcbs, current one is one big Motherboard, but still fully dual mono
Clarification - Only regarding iron:
The Turtle AVC is using a dual c-core, meaning each channel (stereo) or phase (balanced), is to a degree influenced by the other channel/phase since the two coils are sharing the cores.
My question was regarding full channel and phase separation - Meaning we would end up with 2 separate toroidal for stereo and 4 separate toroidal AVC for balanced.
Beyond time, effort and work: Would fully separated toroidal cores with only 1 coil per chn/phase, perform better than dual c-core ?
The Turtle AVC is using a dual c-core, meaning each channel (stereo) or phase (balanced), is to a degree influenced by the other channel/phase since the two coils are sharing the cores.
My question was regarding full channel and phase separation - Meaning we would end up with 2 separate toroidal for stereo and 4 separate toroidal AVC for balanced.
Beyond time, effort and work: Would fully separated toroidal cores with only 1 coil per chn/phase, perform better than dual c-core ?
well, answer is short: proper balanced signal is only when you're having both phases of signal kept in same context, thus having two coils on same core is conditio sine qua non
balanced doesn't mean that you have two different, independent things - artificially put in same context ; that only means that you have two potentials in same context, being antiphase one to other
just mentally ditch GND as concept from entire picture and you'll get it - you don't need ground for balanced circuit at all
practically:
- SE means - one circuit where one wire (called GND) fixed in space and time with anchor, and second wire (called hot) freely flapping in space and time, according to AC signal brought to circ
- Bal means - one circuit where one wire (called positive) freely flapping in space and time, and second wire (called negative) freely flapping in space and time, according to AC signal brought to circ, but they're (wires) flapping in space and time in opposite "directions"
observe - there is no anchor, and they're in same circ
so, even if there are so called Balanced AVC and TVC on market, most of them are nothing else that two SE units conveniently arranged in "balanced" configuration, two phases of signal being completely independent electrical and magnetic circuit
that's simply cheating ...... instead of developing proper product, there is used (pair of) already developed one as substitute, bad one
so, only when "positive" and "negative" are part of same system, you have proper balanced thingie
as illustration - take a look at concepts how many manufacturers are dealing with balanced signal, using OP gain blocks:
some are cheating, conditioning just one phase then producing negative one on very output, with simple inverter
some are clever, making appropriate matrix blcoks with several OP, to maintain equal and mutually interdependent conditioning of signal phases
some are even more clever, using discrete or monolithic iterations of Papa's SUSY, thus everything really happening in between opposite signal phases, is happening - without GND
I'm sure there are better and more clever explanations on-line and in books, but that's my brain today ........ maybe electron spin is easier to explain
balanced doesn't mean that you have two different, independent things - artificially put in same context ; that only means that you have two potentials in same context, being antiphase one to other
just mentally ditch GND as concept from entire picture and you'll get it - you don't need ground for balanced circuit at all
practically:
- SE means - one circuit where one wire (called GND) fixed in space and time with anchor, and second wire (called hot) freely flapping in space and time, according to AC signal brought to circ
- Bal means - one circuit where one wire (called positive) freely flapping in space and time, and second wire (called negative) freely flapping in space and time, according to AC signal brought to circ, but they're (wires) flapping in space and time in opposite "directions"
observe - there is no anchor, and they're in same circ
so, even if there are so called Balanced AVC and TVC on market, most of them are nothing else that two SE units conveniently arranged in "balanced" configuration, two phases of signal being completely independent electrical and magnetic circuit
that's simply cheating ...... instead of developing proper product, there is used (pair of) already developed one as substitute, bad one
so, only when "positive" and "negative" are part of same system, you have proper balanced thingie
as illustration - take a look at concepts how many manufacturers are dealing with balanced signal, using OP gain blocks:
some are cheating, conditioning just one phase then producing negative one on very output, with simple inverter
some are clever, making appropriate matrix blcoks with several OP, to maintain equal and mutually interdependent conditioning of signal phases
some are even more clever, using discrete or monolithic iterations of Papa's SUSY, thus everything really happening in between opposite signal phases, is happening - without GND
I'm sure there are better and more clever explanations on-line and in books, but that's my brain today ........ maybe electron spin is easier to explain
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My stupid brain.. LOL. I didn't see it that way which is obvious from my question. By keeping things on the same core, especially for balanced, the core helps in canceling noise since the cores are in antiphase with one another.
well, if you 're mentioning and thinking of noise, you didn't got it (probably my non-sense for presenting technical concepts)
so, think more
for SE, there is so many things ( one coil), that you don't have a choice than to keep them all on one core
for Bal......... well, if you want to make it proper - both coils must be on one-same core; if you want quick money ( just 10% of customers asking for Bal, so why bother) - jut make it of pair of SE ones and you're done
so, think more
for SE, there is so many things ( one coil), that you don't have a choice than to keep them all on one core
for Bal......... well, if you want to make it proper - both coils must be on one-same core; if you want quick money ( just 10% of customers asking for Bal, so why bother) - jut make it of pair of SE ones and you're done
The reason for balanced is my power amplifiers will be fully differential (SuSy) and therefore, the whole chain must be balanced 🙂
luckily, for having and enjoying SUSY, one doesn't need to understand it
it took me years to realize that every Bal in/Bal connected xformer is having inherent SUSY, from Beginning of Time
so, here it is - Pa made his electronic analog of xformer
it took me years to realize that every Bal in/Bal connected xformer is having inherent SUSY, from Beginning of Time
so, here it is - Pa made his electronic analog of xformer
he he, right.. I don't fully understand it, but I am sure you are right. And yes, differential operation of loudspeaker is the pinnacle and I want that 😉
I definitely don't want to go down this road or have a debate about it but will give an input.
Some like and support it (PASS, Yamaha, Vacuum State Electronics etc) others think its nonsense. Its like having a debate about ground flooding between the active signal traces vs non - both are used and work. Point is, if it make someone happy to have active pos & neg signal, then so be it.
I respect both sides of the argument and I support findings that claim either can be correct and both work equally well.
There are plenty of people who stand firm behind room treatment and if there is no room treatment, spending money on expensive HiFi equipment is a waste of time and money. They are ofc correct to a certain degree, like you are are correct to a certain degree. Differential operation from input to output is not a miracle cure but can be the icing on a cake.
We probably don't need balanced nor SuSy, but its a nice addition.
Some like and support it (PASS, Yamaha, Vacuum State Electronics etc) others think its nonsense. Its like having a debate about ground flooding between the active signal traces vs non - both are used and work. Point is, if it make someone happy to have active pos & neg signal, then so be it.
I respect both sides of the argument and I support findings that claim either can be correct and both work equally well.
There are plenty of people who stand firm behind room treatment and if there is no room treatment, spending money on expensive HiFi equipment is a waste of time and money. They are ofc correct to a certain degree, like you are are correct to a certain degree. Differential operation from input to output is not a miracle cure but can be the icing on a cake.
We probably don't need balanced nor SuSy, but its a nice addition.
everyone is entitled to have own poison
only I'm having them all
so, when I'm in case, there is no such thing as Bal is superior to SE, or the other way
especially when debating on level of generalization
leave that to politicians and Audiophools - we know better here - some physics, some craft, some science and some awarenes that personal taste is of substantial importance
For 25 or so years, I spent thousands of hours in production studio of radio station, where even monitoring FM tuner had proper balanced outputs ......... so, well aware of what balanced system is
I know how and why to make my gadgets SE and how and why to make my gadgets Bal/bridged/differential
so, frankly, I don't care what you or anyone else thinks, but I'm feeling sliiiiight responsibility to respond on silly generalizations, at least in threads I started
it saves me of later repetitive writing on same subject
anyhow - speakers - same as bulb making your room convenient enough to not break your little toes, speaker doesn't care nor differentiate what you did throw on it - Neutral+Phase, or Phase+Neutral, or Phase1+Phase2 ..... as long voltage is bellow squeeeeeking! point
what can be of difference (when and if you know it ) regarding speaker operation - is how you made xover in it
and even of many so called "balanced" or "symmetrical" xovers I had opportunity to see in flesh or on screen, majority are just hogwash - funny drawn and connected regular ones
only I'm having them all
so, when I'm in case, there is no such thing as Bal is superior to SE, or the other way
especially when debating on level of generalization
leave that to politicians and Audiophools - we know better here - some physics, some craft, some science and some awarenes that personal taste is of substantial importance
For 25 or so years, I spent thousands of hours in production studio of radio station, where even monitoring FM tuner had proper balanced outputs ......... so, well aware of what balanced system is
I know how and why to make my gadgets SE and how and why to make my gadgets Bal/bridged/differential
so, frankly, I don't care what you or anyone else thinks, but I'm feeling sliiiiight responsibility to respond on silly generalizations, at least in threads I started
it saves me of later repetitive writing on same subject
anyhow - speakers - same as bulb making your room convenient enough to not break your little toes, speaker doesn't care nor differentiate what you did throw on it - Neutral+Phase, or Phase+Neutral, or Phase1+Phase2 ..... as long voltage is bellow squeeeeeking! point
what can be of difference (when and if you know it ) regarding speaker operation - is how you made xover in it
and even of many so called "balanced" or "symmetrical" xovers I had opportunity to see in flesh or on screen, majority are just hogwash - funny drawn and connected regular ones
If I had not mentioned differential operation of the loudspeaker, no one would have been upset and I realize this is a touchy subject and like I said, I respect others opinion about it and I also mentioned:
You do realize that Nelson Pass designed the XA platform as fully differential because he likes it and think its superior to SE.
Yamaha talks about it as floating design with no ground reference or ground noise (Cyclotron)
Some of the reasoning behind balanced operation of the loudspeaker is to remove possible back EMF which can be generated on the negative terminal and thusly, increase the "evenness" on both voice coil connections. This then increases the transient performance - transitional correction of performance.
This can be compared to the difference between a sealed and open baffle loudspeaker: The sealed loudspeaker is exercising a pressure differential due to increase in pressure behind the driver cone - That is to say that the box have a much higher influence and generates higher inertia or unwilling to change compared to the air acting on the driver on the outside of the box.
An open baffle loudspeaker does not experience this unevenness and can therefore be a) said to have beter resetting potential or b) generate better transients.
Even if one could argue with: "It doesn't matter that the sealed loudspeaker have lower transient performance, our ears cannot hear that, they hear an average and the performance as a whole is down to the entire system." .. I believe this is how they view things.
Lots of people cannot hear beyond 10-11kHz... I can hear 17-18kHz, so what am I to do if a loudspeaker or audio gear have issues at those higher frequency's. Should I ignore it because there is a guy telling me that he cannot hear any issues and it therefore must me in my mind and I image the problems he cannot hear ? (rhetorical question)
Like I said, I do not wish to argue or have a debate, because as humans, we experience the world in different ways, we have different filters that we view it through and we value things differently. We develop a unique set of psychoacoustics and we are all flawed in our unique little ways ... even you Zen 😉
You do realize that Nelson Pass designed the XA platform as fully differential because he likes it and think its superior to SE.
Yamaha talks about it as floating design with no ground reference or ground noise (Cyclotron)
Some of the reasoning behind balanced operation of the loudspeaker is to remove possible back EMF which can be generated on the negative terminal and thusly, increase the "evenness" on both voice coil connections. This then increases the transient performance - transitional correction of performance.
This can be compared to the difference between a sealed and open baffle loudspeaker: The sealed loudspeaker is exercising a pressure differential due to increase in pressure behind the driver cone - That is to say that the box have a much higher influence and generates higher inertia or unwilling to change compared to the air acting on the driver on the outside of the box.
An open baffle loudspeaker does not experience this unevenness and can therefore be a) said to have beter resetting potential or b) generate better transients.
Even if one could argue with: "It doesn't matter that the sealed loudspeaker have lower transient performance, our ears cannot hear that, they hear an average and the performance as a whole is down to the entire system." .. I believe this is how they view things.
Lots of people cannot hear beyond 10-11kHz... I can hear 17-18kHz, so what am I to do if a loudspeaker or audio gear have issues at those higher frequency's. Should I ignore it because there is a guy telling me that he cannot hear any issues and it therefore must me in my mind and I image the problems he cannot hear ? (rhetorical question)
Like I said, I do not wish to argue or have a debate, because as humans, we experience the world in different ways, we have different filters that we view it through and we value things differently. We develop a unique set of psychoacoustics and we are all flawed in our unique little ways ... even you Zen 😉
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