Well, we all hear things a little differently. Since no sound reproduction is perfect, we all have different preferences in which aspect of imperfection is more important. In other words, which kind of reproduction imperfection does the most damage to the illusion of being there. If we all perceived sound the same way, the designs of S. Linkwitz and E. Geddes would be very much the same... they are not... There would not be a market for both ATC and JBL monitors.
I have never heard a large format 2-way compression driver system that really satisfied me. I have never heard yours, and if I did, perhaps it would change my life. Perhaps. The ones I have heard have sounded really good, but I always knew I was listening to a speaker.
What I want from a speaker system is to be able to close my eyes, and suspend disbelief. With naturally mic'ed acoustic instruments and voice, I want to feel like I am there... or they are here... I listen to a lot of opera, jazz, small classical ensembles. I have never been satisfied by a compression driver system, and I used to think it was the horn tweeter... but now I think it might be the big woofer being driven too high that reminds me I am listening to a recording rather than a real event... 700 Hz is a lot to ask of a 15 inch driver.
I am sure that by choosing a direct radiator 12 + 6 + 1 system instead of a compression driver system I give up a little dynamic compression performance, the punch and dynamic contrast that these systems do so well. But by choosing a 15” woofer + horn you are giving up some things as well.
So it is good we all have options. This hobby of ours is all about discovering what we like, and building it, and enjoying it. Best of luck to you... I always enjoy your posts and I always learn something.
j.
You came up with the resonating of horns, not me. While I agree with you about the way one can look at horns, ducts or whatever (read Olson on that 😉 ), the bass reflex resonator is the combo of the duct and the cavity. Not the duct alone.
Hi,
Did you build these speakers?..
If not, no probs.. and best of luck.
BTW passive agressiveness is abusive behaviour, just the more cowardly type.
Cheers.
Hi and thanks,
I have the transformers to build SE or PP with 2A3 or 300B in Class A or AB1, so really anything between 7 and 25 watts.
My question re push-pull was more to do with that type of amplifiers ability to deal with more complex loads and also the back EMF of the larger driver.
In your experience, should be okay?.
Regards
Good conversation as usual.
One thing I do not like is guessing. Where is our measuring tool to show compression. It is only a matter of comparison of peaks and troughs of the source signal vs received.
One thing I like to consider is that is that our systems are dynamic in that they do not measure the same at different volumes....and Q (compliance) measurements are usually at Fs...Q changes with frequency...no idea how to apply...fun to think about.
Out of the designs I spoke using a 15" woofer, the Strauss and the Altec are the ones to attempt to cross low enough to abide by the KA=2 or less rule. Crossing as high as 800hz is quite a feat for an 15" per say, Geddes did comment that he searched high and low for a driver that would be satisfied with. The Altec two way that I know of but not the name, crosses at 500hz and the Strauss crosses at 400hz. I had the chance to audition the Altec 2 way and it was magical to me. The imaging was 3d and life changing if you've never heard such a thing. Directivity is the culprit...The AMT tweeters I audition'd there after could not compete but helped show me that directivity was the driving force...Reflections blur the image, its that simple. Linkwitz approach is much different...I've never been able to audition such a system with my reference material (usually bjork) but in my brain simulator, I cannot compare for the version of "right" I am after though I am speculating. Alignment of time aspects via dsp is also apart of the recipe. My current system is the "wide open polar" approach (1"+4"+12 crossed at 2.1khz and 130hz) and I do enjoy the super wide sweet spot but could never achieve the type of imaging I am after without complete tuning of the room. Directivity helps to remove the room....Remove the room, remove distortion....an impossible feat but why not try, at least from 700hz-7000hz.
One thing I do not like is guessing. Where is our measuring tool to show compression. It is only a matter of comparison of peaks and troughs of the source signal vs received.
One thing I like to consider is that is that our systems are dynamic in that they do not measure the same at different volumes....and Q (compliance) measurements are usually at Fs...Q changes with frequency...no idea how to apply...fun to think about.
Out of the designs I spoke using a 15" woofer, the Strauss and the Altec are the ones to attempt to cross low enough to abide by the KA=2 or less rule. Crossing as high as 800hz is quite a feat for an 15" per say, Geddes did comment that he searched high and low for a driver that would be satisfied with. The Altec two way that I know of but not the name, crosses at 500hz and the Strauss crosses at 400hz. I had the chance to audition the Altec 2 way and it was magical to me. The imaging was 3d and life changing if you've never heard such a thing. Directivity is the culprit...The AMT tweeters I audition'd there after could not compete but helped show me that directivity was the driving force...Reflections blur the image, its that simple. Linkwitz approach is much different...I've never been able to audition such a system with my reference material (usually bjork) but in my brain simulator, I cannot compare for the version of "right" I am after though I am speculating. Alignment of time aspects via dsp is also apart of the recipe. My current system is the "wide open polar" approach (1"+4"+12 crossed at 2.1khz and 130hz) and I do enjoy the super wide sweet spot but could never achieve the type of imaging I am after without complete tuning of the room. Directivity helps to remove the room....Remove the room, remove distortion....an impossible feat but why not try, at least from 700hz-7000hz.
Which one Camplo, Verspertine?
Mine is Homogenic. I've other ref from Dead Can Dance ( Lisa Gehrard, 'Sanvean'), or Massive Attack ( Protection, Sly, Teardrop,...).
For male voice i've found that most male singer 'guest' on Massive Attacks are great: Horace Andy, Terry Callier ( 'Live with me'),... 'Live with me' is incredible to me as it is one of best recorded voice/mix arrangement i've heard in the style and the emotional content of his voice is very high.
I don't agree about the difficulty to make a 15" play high. In fact i listen to this since 1994 ( but i must confess i lowered the initial 750hz x over to a 4" to around 550hz, and upped 4,5khz to 6khz to tweet ( dsp Fir filter multiamp) since circa 2010 ). Technics SB-M2.
I've heard many 15" in differents control rooms, some with typical horns ( Kinoshita/Tad and variation around the concept, Altec Vot, Jbl 4430) but my most prefered one is played up to 1100hz passive ( Tannoy System 15mk2).
We recently had a discussion about 18" and Earl Geddes answered to an issue i had to play an 18" higher than 250hz than it is very driver dependent. I can add to this this is loudspeaker philosophy dependent ( eg: i can see why Earl answered this: if he decided to make an 18" OS waveguide he would had to find the matching 18" woofer... which he certainly did.).
I won't hijack the thread to much so i will just say i don't share your view on the different market for Atc or Jbl in pro world. There is more than just preference at play in proworld i was part of.
Some loudspeakers are 'better' at tracking, some at mixing others at mastering. This ask for different technology or compromise for each level of production.
Mine is Homogenic. I've other ref from Dead Can Dance ( Lisa Gehrard, 'Sanvean'), or Massive Attack ( Protection, Sly, Teardrop,...).
For male voice i've found that most male singer 'guest' on Massive Attacks are great: Horace Andy, Terry Callier ( 'Live with me'),... 'Live with me' is incredible to me as it is one of best recorded voice/mix arrangement i've heard in the style and the emotional content of his voice is very high.
I don't agree about the difficulty to make a 15" play high. In fact i listen to this since 1994 ( but i must confess i lowered the initial 750hz x over to a 4" to around 550hz, and upped 4,5khz to 6khz to tweet ( dsp Fir filter multiamp) since circa 2010 ). Technics SB-M2.
I've heard many 15" in differents control rooms, some with typical horns ( Kinoshita/Tad and variation around the concept, Altec Vot, Jbl 4430) but my most prefered one is played up to 1100hz passive ( Tannoy System 15mk2).
We recently had a discussion about 18" and Earl Geddes answered to an issue i had to play an 18" higher than 250hz than it is very driver dependent. I can add to this this is loudspeaker philosophy dependent ( eg: i can see why Earl answered this: if he decided to make an 18" OS waveguide he would had to find the matching 18" woofer... which he certainly did.).
I won't hijack the thread to much so i will just say i don't share your view on the different market for Atc or Jbl in pro world. There is more than just preference at play in proworld i was part of.
Some loudspeakers are 'better' at tracking, some at mixing others at mastering. This ask for different technology or compromise for each level of production.
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So Krivium, related to your experience with tubes,
Can a SE 7W tubes amp can handle dynamic peaks on a 15" driver with an average listening home level around 80 to 85 dB. So I assume 95 dB spl peaks at max for most playback in an home environment ?
I remember a paper from Hiraga in la NRDS saying you really need a good 30W to 50W class A for a 15" Onken : measures taken with scopes !
@AllenB : what looks like your main loudspeaker please ?
Can a SE 7W tubes amp can handle dynamic peaks on a 15" driver with an average listening home level around 80 to 85 dB. So I assume 95 dB spl peaks at max for most playback in an home environment ?
I remember a paper from Hiraga in la NRDS saying you really need a good 30W to 50W class A for a 15" Onken : measures taken with scopes !
@AllenB : what looks like your main loudspeaker please ?
Hi Diyiggy,
There is not enough information from the case you expose:
Dimension of room ( needed to know critical distance of room), directivity of loudspeakers ( idem), efficiency of loudspeaker ( i would suspect this to be around 100db), then the dynamic range of your most dynamic record within your collection.
The critical distance is needed cause past it level shelf and stay constant. This is frequency and directivity dependant. As a trend the most directive the loudspeaker the more increase the critical distance. I've seen 1khz or 2khz value used to characterize this parameter with acousticians ( that presuppose a 'coherent' behavior of room for the frequency range).
There is not enough information from the case you expose:
Dimension of room ( needed to know critical distance of room), directivity of loudspeakers ( idem), efficiency of loudspeaker ( i would suspect this to be around 100db), then the dynamic range of your most dynamic record within your collection.
The critical distance is needed cause past it level shelf and stay constant. This is frequency and directivity dependant. As a trend the most directive the loudspeaker the more increase the critical distance. I've seen 1khz or 2khz value used to characterize this parameter with acousticians ( that presuppose a 'coherent' behavior of room for the frequency range).
I prefer to control reflections Geddes style. This is not what I was talking about though. Geddes and Linkwitz may have more in common than it seems. They both consider the whole room. One wants no involvement on the first pass and diverse on the second, the other wants diverse from the start.
Maybe it is the partials that are the odd ones out, such as box speakers which have been carelessly placed without treatment.
Maybe it is the partials that are the odd ones out, such as box speakers which have been carelessly placed without treatment.
Hi,
I have said the average spl and the maximum peak, I should have said the distance indeed : let say for a classic 3 meters - though most of the 15" and horns listeners are listening at more like 6 meters because the often bad summation between the multiples horns and the main bass drivers in diy context - not all are specialist of time alignement, phase, etc-?
I'm not sure for illustration a SE 2A3 or even a PP of it can load a Mokey Coffin Open Source (92 db efficienty?) with its 12" on such dynamics peaks when present on reccordings ? But I have no experience with tubes hence the question ! A myth is often saying than a tube subjectivly is given the double of watts VS a SS...
I have said the average spl and the maximum peak, I should have said the distance indeed : let say for a classic 3 meters - though most of the 15" and horns listeners are listening at more like 6 meters because the often bad summation between the multiples horns and the main bass drivers in diy context - not all are specialist of time alignement, phase, etc-?
I'm not sure for illustration a SE 2A3 or even a PP of it can load a Mokey Coffin Open Source (92 db efficienty?) with its 12" on such dynamics peaks when present on reccordings ? But I have no experience with tubes hence the question ! A myth is often saying than a tube subjectivly is given the double of watts VS a SS...
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wow, that's your nowadays system ?
You push very far the loudspeaker and listening area integration... Seems also diy horns... angle of rooms as horn like some Klipsch systems as well !
Impressive work AllenB 🙂
You push very far the loudspeaker and listening area integration... Seems also diy horns... angle of rooms as horn like some Klipsch systems as well !
Impressive work AllenB 🙂
'Waf' ( ouaf) is the sound dogs make when barking in France! Go away nasty dog!
You now have an OS waveguide Allen?
You now have an OS waveguide Allen?
Good one mountainman bob 😀
I think we audio dudes often get WAF backwards (like so many things in audio hahaha).
The common definition of WAF, is no doubt what speakers will our wife accept into the house.
The straightforward and rarer definition of WAF, is what wife will we accept into the house 😛
* Of course just joking friends....i feel humbly blessed to have a girlfriend and partner who graciously not only allows me to pursue giant speakers, but also cheers me on because she sees it makes me happy.
I think we audio dudes often get WAF backwards (like so many things in audio hahaha).
The common definition of WAF, is no doubt what speakers will our wife accept into the house.
The straightforward and rarer definition of WAF, is what wife will we accept into the house 😛
* Of course just joking friends....i feel humbly blessed to have a girlfriend and partner who graciously not only allows me to pursue giant speakers, but also cheers me on because she sees it makes me happy.
If I were to build a dedicated listening space, I would design it for flush mounted (soffit mounted) speakers, set into the corners. Something like audiothing's post https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mul...3-sealed-studio-monitor-idea.html#post6269732
Infinite baffle is so very correct, and it sidesteps so many problems.... but it is also very difficult to retrofit into an existing room... So I really like your concept, Allen...
Infinite baffle is so very correct, and it sidesteps so many problems.... but it is also very difficult to retrofit into an existing room... So I really like your concept, Allen...
It all depends on the impedance curve, not so much on the size of the woofer. If there are any sharp peaks, you'll need an amp with low output impedance to control the speaker. There are SE amps that are very good at this, and PP amps that are not. In other words, the amplifier topology is not necessarily the first thing to consider.
That said, it is usually a good idea to avoid sharp impedance peaks in the loudspeaker in order to make life easier for the amplifier. For instance, impedance compensation networks can be useful to flatten the impedance curve.