Fluid, precisely, it is the complete system that matters in the end. If it is a two way speaker I'd integrate the waveguide into the baffle to get the woofer on better place inside the enclosure (midway) to cancel the lowest mode, have more volume, better aesthetics etc. Big enclosures are pain in the butt to build so I'd more likely build a three way, relax the bass requirement from the woofer below a freestanding waveguide and put it into a minimal (cardiod) enclosure. Anyway, million ways to skin the cat.
All interesting points fellas.
I was thinking in terms of a waveguide with a mouth width more or less a match to a larger woofer ... 2 way.
A waveguide buried in a wall won't diffract. As the wall area around the waveguide shrinks at some point diffraction will begin to show up in response measurements. Taking into consideration the mouth size and dispersion angle at a particular Fc, can that region of frequency response, where diffraction might become audible, be identified w/simulation?
I'm not so sure.
I was thinking in terms of a waveguide with a mouth width more or less a match to a larger woofer ... 2 way.
A waveguide buried in a wall won't diffract. As the wall area around the waveguide shrinks at some point diffraction will begin to show up in response measurements. Taking into consideration the mouth size and dispersion angle at a particular Fc, can that region of frequency response, where diffraction might become audible, be identified w/simulation?
I'm not so sure.
I have done some experiments with taping sharp cardboard edges around my well rounded cabinets, and then measured and listened to the effects.
If the hard edges result in measurable peaks and dips that are large, +/- 3 dB, it is easy to hear the effect. I had to make the edges pretty large to get an effect this big.
If the hard edges were smaller (closer to the radiused edge), the result was measurable peaks and dips which were small, +/- 1.5 dB. It was very hard to hear the effect on most program material. Pop, rock, electronic music, movie soundtracks... this small diffraction effect was of little consequence.
However, with naturally mic'd live performances, I could hear the difference, and it was not subtle. The three dimensional aspects of the sound field were damaged by even a small amount of diffraction.
So my conclusion, for my system and my ears, is that cabinet edge diffraction has an effect that goes beyond its impact on frequency response. Yes, If the frequency response is impacted enough, I will hear it on all program material. But if the diffraction effect on frequency response is small, it still affects the 3 dimensional quality of the music, but only with music that has preserved that aspect through the recording/reproduction process.
j.
I suspect this is varying with individuals: i've never heard anything 3d from a pair of loudspeakers ( but don't deny other could. Maybe the shape of my ears doesn't allow this to hapen? My oysters could mess HRTF?! I've heard binaural and was sensible to vertical info though... A mystery to me).
The music i listened when i discovered the 'inflating stereo width' effect i talked about previously was this:
Pole ?? CD 1 ( full album ) - YouTube
I wonder too if it's not something you need 'training' to identify too. Many subtlety in audio analysis i have acquired through experience/training and wasn't really aware of beforehand.
It took time to come from lead to tin ears! I hope i could end with silver ears but... geting older each days doesn't help.
The music i listened when i discovered the 'inflating stereo width' effect i talked about previously was this:
Pole ?? CD 1 ( full album ) - YouTube
I wonder too if it's not something you need 'training' to identify too. Many subtlety in audio analysis i have acquired through experience/training and wasn't really aware of beforehand.
It took time to come from lead to tin ears! I hope i could end with silver ears but... geting older each days doesn't help.
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Agree with most of this...imaging and sense of space is improved when baffle edge diffraction is minimized.
I think that depth perception from stereo recordings is vastly overrated. I don't tend to perceive depth differences across instruments within a mix.
What I can tell you I perceive is the overall depth between one piece and another. Or just one pieces depth in general. Sometimes I spook myself a little, where I've been listening with my eyes closed and sitting about 2 meters away. Yet the sound itself my brain perceives as coming from further than that. In the moment of the music it sounds like I'm in a bigger room than I am and when I open my eyes *bam* I'm brought back to reality.
I mean it's not much of a shock but if I've been heavily immersed in the music the realisation always takes me by surprise.
It's never specific instruments though it's the entire piece and the way the recording engineer mixed it. Some tracks/albums sit further back than others to me.
Have you ever experienced this?
I experience both - and I'm particularly interested in how you achieve better results in this area.
Different acoustics (real or virtual - and most are virtual with the music I listen to) and sound source(s) forward or set-back as a "whole", as well as *different placement of sound sources within the recording and relative to each other. I find it particularly vexing when I hear mixes with the drums in front of everything else.
On thing I've VERY RARELY heard is that sort of "halo" surrounding a sound source(s)/images that reviewers often describe. I once heard a pair of Apogee Scintillas (with early Krell amps) produce this effect. Still, with particular amps and drivers I can get a more "meaty" 3D image (..but again: rare to hear it when that image has a sort of hollow structure with sound surrounding it).
*this is a good track for gauging results among different loudspeakers and equipment in this respect:
Rod Stewart - You're In My Heart (The Final Acclaim) (Official Video) - YouTube
Different acoustics (real or virtual - and most are virtual with the music I listen to) and sound source(s) forward or set-back as a "whole", as well as *different placement of sound sources within the recording and relative to each other. I find it particularly vexing when I hear mixes with the drums in front of everything else.
On thing I've VERY RARELY heard is that sort of "halo" surrounding a sound source(s)/images that reviewers often describe. I once heard a pair of Apogee Scintillas (with early Krell amps) produce this effect. Still, with particular amps and drivers I can get a more "meaty" 3D image (..but again: rare to hear it when that image has a sort of hollow structure with sound surrounding it).
*this is a good track for gauging results among different loudspeakers and equipment in this respect:
Rod Stewart - You're In My Heart (The Final Acclaim) (Official Video) - YouTube
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Dipole speakers give range outside their boundaries. You would probably like some of the Linkwitz speakers. Driver selection for the high frequencies and speaker placement in the room would be important.