ok then lets get this show on the road...
Due to popular demand I am going to go with the Vifa
P17WJ-00-08 6½” woofers and for my tweeters I will go with the Peerless 812978 1” shielded dome tweeter…
I think you guys will think these drivers are satisfactory…
I figure it will be a 2-way system like you guys have suggested and there will be 2 Vifas and 1 Peerless…
The enclosure will probably be a 2 + or - cu. Ft. vented design…
What do you guys think of that?
After I hear what you guys think I will start designing the enclosure out of ¾” MDF…
Well I will be sure to pickup a copy of the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook soon…
::ALSO:: i was looking at the Vifa D25AG-35-06 as a tweeter but it's normal impedence is 6 ohms...would this be a problem?
because if it isn't i would like to use the Vifa tweeters instead of the Peerless...
Thanks,
Slice
Note: do you think he will like the finished product?
Due to popular demand I am going to go with the Vifa
P17WJ-00-08 6½” woofers and for my tweeters I will go with the Peerless 812978 1” shielded dome tweeter…
I think you guys will think these drivers are satisfactory…
I figure it will be a 2-way system like you guys have suggested and there will be 2 Vifas and 1 Peerless…
The enclosure will probably be a 2 + or - cu. Ft. vented design…
What do you guys think of that?
After I hear what you guys think I will start designing the enclosure out of ¾” MDF…
Well I will be sure to pickup a copy of the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook soon…
::ALSO:: i was looking at the Vifa D25AG-35-06 as a tweeter but it's normal impedence is 6 ohms...would this be a problem?
because if it isn't i would like to use the Vifa tweeters instead of the Peerless...
Thanks,
Slice
Note: do you think he will like the finished product?
good then...
Sweet…. then we will use all Vifa drivers…
The speakers will consist of 2 Vifa P17WJ-00-08 6½” and 1 Vifa D25AG-35-06 as a tweeter…
Sound good?
As a response to griff’s question…
They are not for me...they are a present to my brother that I have not seen in 2 years...
He listens to pretty much anything but opera and rap....
He mostly listens to punk, rock, country, techno, and classical....
Pretty mixed-up kid ha...
Sweet…. then we will use all Vifa drivers…
The speakers will consist of 2 Vifa P17WJ-00-08 6½” and 1 Vifa D25AG-35-06 as a tweeter…
Sound good?
As a response to griff’s question…
They are not for me...they are a present to my brother that I have not seen in 2 years...
He listens to pretty much anything but opera and rap....
He mostly listens to punk, rock, country, techno, and classical....
Pretty mixed-up kid ha...
Slice,
cannot contribute much, but to my ears all Vifa paper cone drivers were pure music, just music. Nothing else. Recomended. Go with Vifa, they sing. Will make a gift your brother uses for years
I own a pair of 2-way vented speakers, having a 5" Vifa woofer with a Qtl of 0.4 and a Vas of 4 litres. Box volume also is 4 litres and the tiny soup brick goes down to 60Hz. Measured, not hearsay. Tweeter is a Seas thing with neodymium magnet inside the voice coil and a 1" fabric dome. These speakers replaced a Stax electrostatic earphone, outperfomring it in in most respects. I used them for years, i still love them. Reason i put them aside was i fell in love with full range speakers. But i keep the soup bricks as a reality check. I would never part with them.
cannot contribute much, but to my ears all Vifa paper cone drivers were pure music, just music. Nothing else. Recomended. Go with Vifa, they sing. Will make a gift your brother uses for years
I own a pair of 2-way vented speakers, having a 5" Vifa woofer with a Qtl of 0.4 and a Vas of 4 litres. Box volume also is 4 litres and the tiny soup brick goes down to 60Hz. Measured, not hearsay. Tweeter is a Seas thing with neodymium magnet inside the voice coil and a 1" fabric dome. These speakers replaced a Stax electrostatic earphone, outperfomring it in in most respects. I used them for years, i still love them. Reason i put them aside was i fell in love with full range speakers. But i keep the soup bricks as a reality check. I would never part with them.
The D25AG is absolutly incredible, especially for the reasonable price. Wait until you hear bells or a ride cymbal comethrough it.
2 ft3 should do it with those woofers. Your gonna have a nice set of speakers.
I recomend a 2nd order L-R filter centered at 2.5kHz. Drop the tweeter 4dB (It is much louder than specified) with a 2ohm resistor in series and a 10 ohm in parallel. I will give you xover and RC values later.
-andy
2 ft3 should do it with those woofers. Your gonna have a nice set of speakers.
I recomend a 2nd order L-R filter centered at 2.5kHz. Drop the tweeter 4dB (It is much louder than specified) with a 2ohm resistor in series and a 10 ohm in parallel. I will give you xover and RC values later.
-andy
Slicemaster....in reference to your 'main' speaker project, I would really have to second planet10's suggestion of the Ashley active crossovers.
You will have a much larger variety of drivers that you can choose from, when you are able to independantly adjust levels for each driver. Also, dynamics will be better, as well as lowered intermodular distortion.
Their are several high quality active crossovers to choose from but as far as prefabbed units, i have to suggest the Ashely snce you will be integrating drivers above 300 Hz. Unlike any other analog active xovers, the Ashley has one very important feature: Variable filter Q for each channel. A 3 way stereo ashley should prove very valuable to you. Still, you need to be certain to pick drivers that will not require noth filters, etc. in the passband to correct their natural responses.
You can also build an active unit too, of couse...but not as useful as the ininitely variable ashley since the parts(such as accurate multi-ganged high q potentiometers) are difficult to aquire to do this. However, it's pretty easy to put together a diy unit and adjust values as your fine tuning it before final assembly...but you will not save much money. A high Q 3 way diy unit, including the cost of decent components and a good case, will cost aroung $300. Twice that and you can purchase the prefab Ashley. Marchland is another option, as they will readily include custom functions in most cases to their products. You could contact them and see if they would include adjustable q control for each channel of their infinitely variable unit. Also, they can include and adjustable baffles step compensation shelf filter, instead of you having to make an external line level unit. However, it is as easy as slapping a pot, resistor and cap in a project box to make your own passive line level bsc circuits, so that should not really be an issue.
-Chris
You will have a much larger variety of drivers that you can choose from, when you are able to independantly adjust levels for each driver. Also, dynamics will be better, as well as lowered intermodular distortion.
Their are several high quality active crossovers to choose from but as far as prefabbed units, i have to suggest the Ashely snce you will be integrating drivers above 300 Hz. Unlike any other analog active xovers, the Ashley has one very important feature: Variable filter Q for each channel. A 3 way stereo ashley should prove very valuable to you. Still, you need to be certain to pick drivers that will not require noth filters, etc. in the passband to correct their natural responses.
You can also build an active unit too, of couse...but not as useful as the ininitely variable ashley since the parts(such as accurate multi-ganged high q potentiometers) are difficult to aquire to do this. However, it's pretty easy to put together a diy unit and adjust values as your fine tuning it before final assembly...but you will not save much money. A high Q 3 way diy unit, including the cost of decent components and a good case, will cost aroung $300. Twice that and you can purchase the prefab Ashley. Marchland is another option, as they will readily include custom functions in most cases to their products. You could contact them and see if they would include adjustable q control for each channel of their infinitely variable unit. Also, they can include and adjustable baffles step compensation shelf filter, instead of you having to make an external line level unit. However, it is as easy as slapping a pot, resistor and cap in a project box to make your own passive line level bsc circuits, so that should not really be an issue.
-Chris
driver configuration
Slice,
How are you going to configure the drivers? Let's discuss the pros & cons of the various possibilities.
T=tweeter, M=mid, W=woofer (same Vifa as M, but used only at lower frequencies)
MTM
or
TMW (2.5way) -- the W is the same driver as the M
The TMW can be configured a number of ways by placing the W close to, further away, or even on the back (my preference) relative to the M.
or you could so a 2 way TM isobarik (but lets discard this one right away)
dave
Slice,
How are you going to configure the drivers? Let's discuss the pros & cons of the various possibilities.
T=tweeter, M=mid, W=woofer (same Vifa as M, but used only at lower frequencies)
MTM
or
TMW (2.5way) -- the W is the same driver as the M
The TMW can be configured a number of ways by placing the W close to, further away, or even on the back (my preference) relative to the M.
or you could so a 2 way TM isobarik (but lets discard this one right away)
dave
Which is easer to implement as far as crossovers go?
Are the crossovers identical?
If so which do you suggest and why? Pros and cons…
If the crossovers are the same I could do it either way…
If the crossovers are different I would like to do it the easer way since this is the first time I have ever build a crossover…
Thanks,
Slice
Are the crossovers identical?
If so which do you suggest and why? Pros and cons…
If the crossovers are the same I could do it either way…
If the crossovers are different I would like to do it the easer way since this is the first time I have ever build a crossover…
Thanks,
Slice
Slice,
The easiest way to do the cross-over is to run across a project that has done it already and copy them :^)
With the MTM you are crossing a pr of Ms over to the T. Because of the physical spacing of the 2 Ms the XO has to be as low as you can get away with (stressing the tweeter to the max) and the XO has to be of a fairly high order -- often 4th order acoustic + baffle-step compensation.
With the TMW you treat the W as an idependent unit with a single inductor in series to roll it off 1st order at the baffle-step frequency (i use the box width as a varibale here so i can get this XO element down where i want it). This W is essentially used for brute force baffle-step compensation. The TM is then crossed over. Because you are only dealing with one M at these frequencies you have more flexibility as to the XO point, meaning more flexibility wrt the order of the XO. Perhaps as simple as a 1st order series (a single cap and an inductor) -- I know where i can go ask where someone may have tried it out already. Or maybe you will need something more complex.
All 3 versions of the TMW would use the same XO.
I'll let some of the other members get started on discussing the pros & cons of various XO topologies, and the driver arrangements.
dave
The easiest way to do the cross-over is to run across a project that has done it already and copy them :^)
With the MTM you are crossing a pr of Ms over to the T. Because of the physical spacing of the 2 Ms the XO has to be as low as you can get away with (stressing the tweeter to the max) and the XO has to be of a fairly high order -- often 4th order acoustic + baffle-step compensation.
With the TMW you treat the W as an idependent unit with a single inductor in series to roll it off 1st order at the baffle-step frequency (i use the box width as a varibale here so i can get this XO element down where i want it). This W is essentially used for brute force baffle-step compensation. The TM is then crossed over. Because you are only dealing with one M at these frequencies you have more flexibility as to the XO point, meaning more flexibility wrt the order of the XO. Perhaps as simple as a 1st order series (a single cap and an inductor) -- I know where i can go ask where someone may have tried it out already. Or maybe you will need something more complex.
All 3 versions of the TMW would use the same XO.
I'll let some of the other members get started on discussing the pros & cons of various XO topologies, and the driver arrangements.
dave
Ok...thanks...
As I have stated I am new to passive crossovers so I am going to need some help finding a proven design to work with my drivers...
Thank for the feedback and help...
I am looking forward to seeing what you can dig-up for me as far a crossover designs...
As you know I am new to working with crossovers or I would look and find a design my self, but I am not sure what to look for...
I still do not under stand crossovers but I am continuing to read and I am trying to learn...
Thanks,
Slice
As I have stated I am new to passive crossovers so I am going to need some help finding a proven design to work with my drivers...
Thank for the feedback and help...
I am looking forward to seeing what you can dig-up for me as far a crossover designs...
As you know I am new to working with crossovers or I would look and find a design my self, but I am not sure what to look for...
I still do not under stand crossovers but I am continuing to read and I am trying to learn...
Thanks,
Slice
Klaus,
Have to ask the designer, Gerald Gessner, before i give away his design.
He was working as professional speaker designer for ATL back then and he designed the speaker for his living room and personal preference. I remember him say "unsellable, sounding too linear, no the bathtub responde curve expected by the dealers and customers"
Speakers are cheap but the Seas tweeter was made from unobtainium (out of manufacturer's program). THe XO however is not cheap at all, copper foil inductors, tin foil caps shunted with micas. My XO would never have fitted into the enclosure, it had to sit on its backside.
lohk said:
Have to ask the designer, Gerald Gessner, before i give away his design.
He was working as professional speaker designer for ATL back then and he designed the speaker for his living room and personal preference. I remember him say "unsellable, sounding too linear, no the bathtub responde curve expected by the dealers and customers"
Speakers are cheap but the Seas tweeter was made from unobtainium (out of manufacturer's program). THe XO however is not cheap at all, copper foil inductors, tin foil caps shunted with micas. My XO would never have fitted into the enclosure, it had to sit on its backside.
I remember him say "unsellable, sounding too linear, no the bathtub responde curve expected by the dealers and customers
Yeah, Bernhard, that are the type of speakers we/I like !
Please open up some more info about that if your friend permits.
Klaus
ps:
I remember the years (long gone ?) where "German speakers" always meant this "loudness curve" kind of sound - they were "proud of it and called it "Taunus-Sound" regarding to the place where some of this factories were. Big boxes with unlistenable sound. Hifi was a difficult task in those days in this part of the world. Here in Austria in the late seventies they tried to sell everybody Bose als the best thing on earth, which was even worse...
Yeah, Bernhard, that are the type of speakers we/I like !
Please open up some more info about that if your friend permits.
Klaus
ps:
I remember the years (long gone ?) where "German speakers" always meant this "loudness curve" kind of sound - they were "proud of it and called it "Taunus-Sound" regarding to the place where some of this factories were. Big boxes with unlistenable sound. Hifi was a difficult task in those days in this part of the world. Here in Austria in the late seventies they tried to sell everybody Bose als the best thing on earth, which was even worse...
Andy G
Hi there, so it finally comes down to an MTM or 2.5 TMM using vifa drivers. This is GOOD !!! you are virtually guaranteed a sweet sound using the Vifa P17, its one of the best mid/woofers available for the money imo !!
Ok I think a TMM 2.5 would be the way to go, with the top woof in a sealed compartment and the bottom in an ebs compartment, but I still need to calculate volumes etc and the coils size required on the .5.
I would use a thin tower arrangement about 3.5ft tall.
The alternative is a standard MTM design of about the same size, both will work well with these drivers. your decision !!
I will run some curves and draw something up for you if you are interested. Or i could just provide you with volumes and x-o info. your call........
But before I do, I need to have some idea of your woodworking skills, because I have a tendancy to get a tad over-elaborate at times ;-))
Visit my web site at http://home.iprimus.com.au/gradds/ and you will see what I mean !!
Hi there, so it finally comes down to an MTM or 2.5 TMM using vifa drivers. This is GOOD !!! you are virtually guaranteed a sweet sound using the Vifa P17, its one of the best mid/woofers available for the money imo !!
Ok I think a TMM 2.5 would be the way to go, with the top woof in a sealed compartment and the bottom in an ebs compartment, but I still need to calculate volumes etc and the coils size required on the .5.
I would use a thin tower arrangement about 3.5ft tall.
The alternative is a standard MTM design of about the same size, both will work well with these drivers. your decision !!
I will run some curves and draw something up for you if you are interested. Or i could just provide you with volumes and x-o info. your call........
But before I do, I need to have some idea of your woodworking skills, because I have a tendancy to get a tad over-elaborate at times ;-))
Visit my web site at http://home.iprimus.com.au/gradds/ and you will see what I mean !!
ok...
Well I can do most of what is no your website…
I would like to keep the design simple…namely a rectangle enclosure…
3 ½ ‘ tall sounds good…
I you would like to design the enclosure that is fine…although I am completely capable…
Vifa recommended a vented enclosure for the P17WJ-00-08 between .35-1.00 Cubic feet internal volume. I do not have a suggested volume for the D25AG-35-06 but I am not sure that it matters…
I think we should talk more about enclosure before you get started designing one for me…
I would like to design the enclosure my self to add a personal touch but if you would help me out it with it I would be ecstatic.
Crossovers are a section of the project that I defiantly need help on because this it the first time I have ever attempted to build one…
I think we will go with the TMM 2.5 like you suggest…
We shall talk more…
Thanks,
Slice
Well I can do most of what is no your website…
I would like to keep the design simple…namely a rectangle enclosure…
3 ½ ‘ tall sounds good…
I you would like to design the enclosure that is fine…although I am completely capable…
Vifa recommended a vented enclosure for the P17WJ-00-08 between .35-1.00 Cubic feet internal volume. I do not have a suggested volume for the D25AG-35-06 but I am not sure that it matters…
I think we should talk more about enclosure before you get started designing one for me…
I would like to design the enclosure my self to add a personal touch but if you would help me out it with it I would be ecstatic.
Crossovers are a section of the project that I defiantly need help on because this it the first time I have ever attempted to build one…
I think we will go with the TMM 2.5 like you suggest…
We shall talk more…
Thanks,
Slice
I understand your approach completely
I always want to do my own thing too !! ;-))
I do recommend using the 2 woofs with different alignments though if you are doing a 2.5 tmm. a sealed one will give you better mids than a vented one, and if combined with an extended bass vented cabinet spreads the impedance peaks nicely as well as giving that extra bass response.
If you like I'll do the volume calcs for the 2 sections.
If mtm, they are usually just wired in parallel in a single compartment
When you decide on your approach, we can look at a simple series crossover to run them.
Go for it !!
I always want to do my own thing too !! ;-))
I do recommend using the 2 woofs with different alignments though if you are doing a 2.5 tmm. a sealed one will give you better mids than a vented one, and if combined with an extended bass vented cabinet spreads the impedance peaks nicely as well as giving that extra bass response.
If you like I'll do the volume calcs for the 2 sections.
If mtm, they are usually just wired in parallel in a single compartment
When you decide on your approach, we can look at a simple series crossover to run them.
Go for it !!
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