What speakers are we talking about, and where are the commercial speakers going to come from, thin air? You spent $5k on your diy speakers, and you want to compare them to $25k/pair commercial speakers. So you're going to convince a dealer/manufacturer to lend you their speakers to measure?
jeff
Here in germany if you build the well designed loudspeakers from the do it yourself magazines like Klang und Ton or Hobby Hifi you can compete easily with the best commercial designs out there.
For me personally I like fullranges like Fane 15 300tc aluminize the cone and throw some dsp on it.
Thats high end, too.
For me personally I like fullranges like Fane 15 300tc aluminize the cone and throw some dsp on it.
Thats high end, too.
Measure? Speakers are made to listen to, not measure and admire colored squiggle lines. Yes, a dealer will let you listen to their speakers with your ears.
My recent project was a pair of speakers, 2-way with Piezo and 6.5", sealed. Thread is here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/trying-to-get-the-best-out-of-cheapo-piezos.409639/
I listened to them against a pair of Focal CMS 65 powered monitors. They had a MSRP of US $1900 (NLA, I think). https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/focal-cms65 This was in a dedicated room, with both absorption and diffusion, not much furniture. I have listened to the Focals against the Kef LS50 (first gen) and substantially preferred the Focals.
The piezo speakers are less tolerant of listening off axis vertically. I suspect the Focals have a lower XO and have less vertical lobing. The Piezo spkrs needed the tall stands, but the Focals were content to sit on the shorter ones. If you can place the piezos at the correct height it's not an issue.
The piezo speakers throw a wider presentation. The Focals have a little depression around the tweeter to influence dispersion, the piezos have a horn. I take the sonic width to be related to this, but can't really say much more about it, I'm not sure how the shape on the Focals functions / measures.
The piezo speakers sounded just a bit more breathy, the Focals had a bit more body. Measurements on the speakers I made showed little peaks at 1.5k and just over 3k, and another up at 11k. I think those facts lead to this impression. It sounded pretty close to me, and depending on the content one might prefer one or the other, but I think the Focals are probably more correct.
Listening friends typically had a similar reaction, that in an absolute sense the Focals probably had the edge, but that the piezo speakers were quite close. For the resources invested the Piezo speakers were regarded as a success. Everyone agreed that the piezos themselves were not screechy and awful, which was the point of the experiment.
The Focals look much fancier, but my speakers are a nice shade of red.
I probably spent about $120 or so on the pair I built (mostly XO parts), up against the MSRP $1900 Focals.
More broadly, I think DIY efforts can compete with fancy speakers, but the DIY-er must be substantially sophisticated to make it happen. Everyone has a first project, and many people don't have measurement capability, and I don't want to discourage folks in that position. I think something like the C-notes (or similar) or reasonably priced full-range designs is a sensible path for folks starting out, but thinking "I have a budget of $1500/speaker to spend on drivers for a reference level 3-way" will probably lead to dissappointment. Even if you've bought the necessary kit, taking good measurements and understanding what they're telling you takes some practice. Making something musically satisfying for cheap isn't too hard, but making a giant killer reference monster is a fair bit tougher.
DIY has the advantage that you get it exactly the way you want it. There was a discussion about the Yamaha AS701 in another forum recently. I studied the circuit diagram in detail. I wouldn't do it exactly the same in some places. But my expectations are also very high and can rarely be met by a consumer product.
It might have once but not anymore.
What was the headline question of this thread?
We are looking at the Why?
In attempt to answer your narrative:
You have to first answer who am l the diy builder ?
You can’t generalise. My made that point earlier
Back then n the 1990’s l bought several books including the Loudspeaker Cookbook ready to assist in building a diy loudspeaker. I also attended a loudspeaker builder course at the local tech college
So that was me.
A lot of people gather advice on their journey from others. Sometimes this is quality information. Other times not.
The fun parts is deciding what your going the make. The not fun part is getting stuck because you don’t understand where you went wrong?
This proves your narrative invalid.
In my experience people who are spending upwards of $4000 are building a reproduction or clone of something. Those are the equivalent of a 20,000 + system in some instances. They use the internet for obtaining information.
Generally the more you invest the more research you do around the decision before hand.
It’s the category wanting to be guided by ego, marketing and unfortunately miss information that end up not bettering a commercial system. They try too hard and screw it up.
Yes, and you are broadly superimposing yourself as some kind of universal representative of the DIY experience.
Which you are definitely not .....imo/ime.
There seem to be a sentiment of it doesn’t matter here?
Those who believe that are you saying those creations are something you would want to live with in your own home rise your right arm.
Probably not. So please channel the rhetoric to perhaps the artist merit of a diy clay vase 🏺 or something.
Those who believe that are you saying those creations are something you would want to live with in your own home rise your right arm.
Probably not. So please channel the rhetoric to perhaps the artist merit of a diy clay vase 🏺 or something.
Actually l am not saying that. But l do have the benefit of helping out a large number of diy enthusiasts who realised they didn’t know enough.
Logically l understand what happens during the journey. As l said this is about the why? If you don’t look at the why how can you post something on topic that answers the first post in this thread.
Otherwise just say it doesn’t matter.
Logically l understand what happens during the journey. As l said this is about the why? If you don’t look at the why how can you post something on topic that answers the first post in this thread.
Otherwise just say it doesn’t matter.
Hello Ian
You have said this a couple of times. Why do you think someone wouldn't figure it out and find their way? I have hit the wall, meaning a mistake, more than once and managed to figure it out.
Finn up is without a doubt the best learning tool there is. Your narrative seems to be you need a sages advice or your project will be a bust. Good advice is certainly helpful but there are a lot of people who can think for themselves.
Rob 🙂
I believe you are mis informed or your looking at what this means to you.
Don’t let it concern you.
It’s actually about what it means to the budding diy builder. You started off just like any typical diy builder didn’t you.
Great to those who figure it out themselves.
Logically if they didn’t in the end they would look for one who they know and trust
In some of those cases they found me.
I didn’t find them.
I’m not talking about the LHS either.
Incidentally Joseph Crowe’s profile has grown over the past few years to the point he is now accepting commissions to built hi end horn systems for clients.
So is he committing a cardinal crime?
Don’t let it concern you.
It’s actually about what it means to the budding diy builder. You started off just like any typical diy builder didn’t you.
Great to those who figure it out themselves.
Logically if they didn’t in the end they would look for one who they know and trust
In some of those cases they found me.
I didn’t find them.
I’m not talking about the LHS either.
Incidentally Joseph Crowe’s profile has grown over the past few years to the point he is now accepting commissions to built hi end horn systems for clients.
So is he committing a cardinal crime?
I wrote I use Mo Studio series as reference -- what did you think that meant?
I'd like to answer the initial question.
For my projects I only use chassis you find in speakers usually not called consumer class, but high end. If you are patient, you can buy occasions at ridiculous low prices. I purchase such without a specific project on my mind, sometimes they are stored for a long time until I use them. When I have time and inspiration, I combine them to something nice. What I have learned, if you want your DIYS accepted, it has to look professional. I don't put raw MDF boxes in my living room.
I have started with DIYS because I disliked the sound of "usual" commercial speakers. The ones in my financial reach sounded awful and the ones acceptable were ridiculous expensive. I talk about starting with active listening around 1975. So for me the benchmark have always been commercial speaker, today called "high end", even as this word was not invented at that time.
In the 80's, while still at school, I build two set's of PA speakers with a friend of mine. Soon we where asked to do something called "mobile discotheque". The speaker system was DIYS with pro chassis, Electro Voice, RCF, Cone. A compact, all exponential horn system. What started as a service for friends, became a weekend business soon, because the sound of our system was far better than the ones of the so called professionals. We did not openly offer our service, but people asked us, because wanted the same sound at a private party as they were used to from the night clubs they visited, not some bum, bum sound from “Cheap Joey's Party Sound”. We had a lot of fun and where paid for it quite well.
The point is that our DIYS system was better than commercial stuff, at least people interested in good sound thought so. Of course, the construction was based on commercial designs. A creative copy you could call it. Anyway, it was far better than what you could buy at a reasonable price.
Now lets skip 30 years of speaker building of all kinds.
When we moved into a larger house 10 years ago, my children got their own home cinema system in their room. Because of limited time I bought some highly recommended HECO speaker for them, front and center. I thought HIFI should have gotten much better over the years. Wrong I was.
In our living room I have a DIYS build system. The difference is huge. While the HECO, even bi-amped, sounds quite nice and pleasing, with music and movie, the DIYS system is another level. I tried both with the same AVR to stay objective.
I often thought about making some of my projects public, but because I'm used to buy chassis on sale, you can not copy them any more. Next, I prefer active today and the DIYS of mains powered amps is quite dangerous and complicated to get silent. People that are able to do such things don't need advice.
Hifi is not very fair. If you have the skills, tools, workshop, funds and a large listening room, you are privileged. If you also have the time for your hobby and decide what is making music in the listening/ living room, you are off even better. We got to keep in mind not anyone is so lucky.
For my projects I only use chassis you find in speakers usually not called consumer class, but high end. If you are patient, you can buy occasions at ridiculous low prices. I purchase such without a specific project on my mind, sometimes they are stored for a long time until I use them. When I have time and inspiration, I combine them to something nice. What I have learned, if you want your DIYS accepted, it has to look professional. I don't put raw MDF boxes in my living room.
I have started with DIYS because I disliked the sound of "usual" commercial speakers. The ones in my financial reach sounded awful and the ones acceptable were ridiculous expensive. I talk about starting with active listening around 1975. So for me the benchmark have always been commercial speaker, today called "high end", even as this word was not invented at that time.
In the 80's, while still at school, I build two set's of PA speakers with a friend of mine. Soon we where asked to do something called "mobile discotheque". The speaker system was DIYS with pro chassis, Electro Voice, RCF, Cone. A compact, all exponential horn system. What started as a service for friends, became a weekend business soon, because the sound of our system was far better than the ones of the so called professionals. We did not openly offer our service, but people asked us, because wanted the same sound at a private party as they were used to from the night clubs they visited, not some bum, bum sound from “Cheap Joey's Party Sound”. We had a lot of fun and where paid for it quite well.
The point is that our DIYS system was better than commercial stuff, at least people interested in good sound thought so. Of course, the construction was based on commercial designs. A creative copy you could call it. Anyway, it was far better than what you could buy at a reasonable price.
Now lets skip 30 years of speaker building of all kinds.
When we moved into a larger house 10 years ago, my children got their own home cinema system in their room. Because of limited time I bought some highly recommended HECO speaker for them, front and center. I thought HIFI should have gotten much better over the years. Wrong I was.
In our living room I have a DIYS build system. The difference is huge. While the HECO, even bi-amped, sounds quite nice and pleasing, with music and movie, the DIYS system is another level. I tried both with the same AVR to stay objective.
I often thought about making some of my projects public, but because I'm used to buy chassis on sale, you can not copy them any more. Next, I prefer active today and the DIYS of mains powered amps is quite dangerous and complicated to get silent. People that are able to do such things don't need advice.
Hifi is not very fair. If you have the skills, tools, workshop, funds and a large listening room, you are privileged. If you also have the time for your hobby and decide what is making music in the listening/ living room, you are off even better. We got to keep in mind not anyone is so lucky.
The only issue I have is you come off rather pessimistic. You are quick to point to people who lost their way. Any success stories in there before you came in for the rescue?
Yes I started with essentially no knowledge at all. If I waited or hesitated on my first build it probably never would have happened. I started with something simple @planet10 a pair of subwoofers. I felt confident enough I could pull it off. I think most who DIY share that confidence. Without it you would never start a single project. Can it be misplaced sure. Just keep it simple to start.
Good I am glad you were able to help. You always were helpful and willing to share your time. We have all at one time or another asked for help. These forums can be a big help but can also lead you the wrong way so yeah you need to know who to trust and who is just repeating or parroting, without enough understanding, how to answer your question in a constructive manner.
That comes with time.
A crime? What are you talking about? Good for him and anyone else who puts up a site and wins a following. Just remember it's one persons vision. Other people may or may not completely agree. The idea is to give things a look and if you share it so much the better. At the very least you can see things through another persons perspective and learn something from it.
Are you referring to Greg? Certainly helps if that's what you mean. Always remember the wrong questions won't get you the right answers.
Rob 🙂
No, of course the quality of the DIY matters.........if that is what you're referring too...(can't really tell)
I think it's fair to say most everyone aspires to the highest quality they can achieve.
The sentiment you propose makes no sense.
And I think you underestimate the percent of DIYers who don't mid learning from their mistakes, who enjoy the process of experimenting and learning.
Who don't go running looking for some self-acknowledged speaker guru to straighten them out, after a little initial disappointment.
And who eventually achieve extraordinary DIY's....
I know i fit into that category.
Since I am newbie I would like you to comment whether or not my workflow is correct. Here is what I plan to be doing.
1. I find drivers and try crossing them over in vituixcad until I can find a set that should work well together based on traced data
2. I take their impedence measurements using REW and build the box around those.
3. I build the box, drop the drivers in, wire them all up to individual posts
4. Take all of their measurement including impedence again, then on and off axis for each driver
5. I then use those measurements to design the final crossover.
6. I wire up said Xover into the box and wire everything up.
7. I take a final measurement of the entire system to see if I screwed anything up
Is this the correct workflow?
Yes and no.
I don't think that such a 1-7 list will lead to success. Even if some books, posts and whatever may say so.
One thing, you have to take the baffle size and form into account. You can ruin a project before it starts by placing the chassis in the wrong place. There are simulations for that, but you need to have perfect measurements. Garbage in = garbage out.
Many commercial speakers are about design, not acoustics. The designer is "creative" and the poor guy doing the crossover has to clean up the mess. A mess that could have been prevented!
Also, how do you "find" drivers? That is a very individual thing you can not pin down.
Also, the volume and principle of the bass driver/s count.
There are a whole basket full of educated guesses you do and can't even explain to the last bit.
If you are new to this, take advice serious. There are quite some people that can tell you straight away that some idea will not work and what seems to be a good path, worth to be followed..
You have ideas, present them and have them checked. This can help a whole lot. The final decissions are on you.
I don't think that such a 1-7 list will lead to success. Even if some books, posts and whatever may say so.
One thing, you have to take the baffle size and form into account. You can ruin a project before it starts by placing the chassis in the wrong place. There are simulations for that, but you need to have perfect measurements. Garbage in = garbage out.
Many commercial speakers are about design, not acoustics. The designer is "creative" and the poor guy doing the crossover has to clean up the mess. A mess that could have been prevented!
Also, how do you "find" drivers? That is a very individual thing you can not pin down.
Also, the volume and principle of the bass driver/s count.
There are a whole basket full of educated guesses you do and can't even explain to the last bit.
If you are new to this, take advice serious. There are quite some people that can tell you straight away that some idea will not work and what seems to be a good path, worth to be followed..
You have ideas, present them and have them checked. This can help a whole lot. The final decissions are on you.
Build something. Make some mistakes. Learn a lot.
Do it again.
7…. to see if I screwed anything up
8. Listen to it and see what it does right and what wrong for your room, your support kit, and YOUR taste.
8a. what compromises does the design have, what does it do well? Where can it be made better (for ME)? Can i tweak the XO to make things better? Will EQ help?
Measurements can inform 8a. They can help you. They can hurt you. They are a tool. And just on-axis is insufficient,
Why i often recommend tossing the XO and building a FR/1-way speaker with the idea that it won’t be the last and what you learn will greatly inform the next. Also simplifies the interpretatioon of the results with only 2 major degrees of freedom. Vrs MANY more degrees of freedom to consider as soon as a second driver and XO parts are added.
Do somethinf budget, learn a lot, save some money becasue you now know way more going ionto Project #2.
dave
Do it again.
8. Listen to it and see what it does right and what wrong for your room, your support kit, and YOUR taste.
8a. what compromises does the design have, what does it do well? Where can it be made better (for ME)? Can i tweak the XO to make things better? Will EQ help?
Measurements can inform 8a. They can help you. They can hurt you. They are a tool. And just on-axis is insufficient,
Why i often recommend tossing the XO and building a FR/1-way speaker with the idea that it won’t be the last and what you learn will greatly inform the next. Also simplifies the interpretatioon of the results with only 2 major degrees of freedom. Vrs MANY more degrees of freedom to consider as soon as a second driver and XO parts are added.
Do somethinf budget, learn a lot, save some money becasue you now know way more going ionto Project #2.
dave
It hard has any bass output below 2-300Hz IMO. But on top of a pair of smaller woofer towers, and with multiple subwoofers, it started to open up. Very low sensitivity, so everything else had to be dialed down a lot - especially because it needed some EQ to be flat. The out-of-the-box response, is not neutral to my ears.
But this is why I jumped the dedicated midrange version from the KEF R3 instead. It's way smoother and I can't hear the benefits of the Meta - even though I would like to 😀