There are several "dichotomies" that define and partition our hobby space. But "off-the-shelf" audio-chain really doesn't cover the non-mainstream. How good are our DIY units compared to off-the-shelf -- restricted to passive 2nd-or-higher-order multi-way dome-plus-cones bass-reflex for an "average" home -- I haven't been motivated to find out DIY.
Remember the Econowave. That was inspired by Zilch and had a huge following.
The same principle has applied on the Pass forum with the support of our great Nelson Pass. At the start there need to be a qualified source of know how and a starter project.
Like many l have built several Pass diy projects and Aleph diy projects.
The notion that a loudspeaker from scratch is any easier is simply not true. This is because what you don’t know you don’t know.
Sometimes people don’t want to know so they are best served with a pre thought through project.
I am only pointing this out because one post here rightfully pointed out that a first time diy builder would struggle to produce a loudspeaker that would compete with a competent budget commercial system.
Reputable brands are well versus on designing and manufacturing systems that perform better than they have any right to . The Monitor Audio Bronze in the link below.
There is absolutely no way a green diy builder could even remotely approach the performance of this from scratch. They a dreaming of they think they can….
Dream on.
System Format: 2-Way
Frequency Response (-6 dB):
52 – 25,000 Hz (Free field)
37 – 30,000 Hz (In room)
Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m): 87 dB
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Minimum Impedance: 4.5 ohms
Maximum SPL: 110 dBA (pair)
Power Handling (RMS): 100 W
Recommended Amplifier Requirements: 30 — 100 W
Bass Alignment: Bass reflex – HiVe II port system
Crossover Frequency: 2,200 Hz
Drive Unit Complement:
1 x 8″ C-CAM bass/mid-range driver
1 x 25 mm C-CAM Gold Dome tweeter with UD Waveguide
External Dimensions (Including Grille and Terminals (H x W x D)): 376 x 231 x 325 mm (1413/16 x 91/8 x 1213/16″)
External Dimensions (including Outrigger Feet and Spikes (H x W x D)): N/A
Weight (each): 7.8 kg (17 lb 3 oz)
https://eastwoodhifi.com.au/product...MIxI20iO2OhwMVOA2tBh0--gcBEAQYByABEgJKz_D_BwE
I read a few initial posts and if you guys buy KEF ls50 to check how close you can get than good luck. It's like buying a rubber doll to figure out how close you are to a real thing. It's not about the ability to build the pieces but the clear idea about what the picture will look when all the pieces are in place and you guys have no idea what to expect , what your aim is and how it supposed to sound. Also , most of the time you don't have space, hence all your "top end systems " end up being a two speakers a few feet apart, close to a back wall with TV in between.
Forget all the notions of competition with high end stuff. If you desire it and can't afford just wait for the price to come down , take overtime at work and buy the damn thing .
I think the better way is to embrace your inner redneck , fu....ck the road taken and make the contraption suiting your depraved needs. Why suffer Christa Ludwig if it's not getting you laid and nobody is passing a free joint ?
Forget all the notions of competition with high end stuff. If you desire it and can't afford just wait for the price to come down , take overtime at work and buy the damn thing .
I think the better way is to embrace your inner redneck , fu....ck the road taken and make the contraption suiting your depraved needs. Why suffer Christa Ludwig if it's not getting you laid and nobody is passing a free joint ?
It's not even that. How many speakers were designed by Pros in last 40 years ? Thousands and yes , they usually are competent. How many are memorable and gained genuine acclaim? Name five fairly accessible You will likely struggle. Neither Kef nor Monitor Audio are making speakers for human beings IMHO. At least Kef made decent drivers
Again this responds to the question the thread asks.
So taking the next step you believe you want a better loudspeaker but can’t afford the $5000 to $10,000 retail price.
It’s logical that if you are going to build something that you need certainty on your investment will work, certainty it can be built and certainty your expectations will be met.
Why on earth would you do it otherwise?
So your lowest risk is a clone of something you like or aspire to. Or a well regarded diy system by an experienced designer.
The Zaph projects or Troels projects are two of many published diy loudspeakers. I mention these despite the nay sayers who have never put together a diy system but have an opinion on what is good & bad.
If the drivers are going to cost you $1500-$2000 why would you spend that on the risk of getting it completely wrong as a first time project starting with your own unproven ideas to complete with a $5000-$10,000 commercial system?
The difference between a wise diy building and well the eccentric who believes everything he reads.
The reason is ego and the false belief that you can.
I’ve seen people blow thousands on soa drivers and give it up after two years of messing with it and never being satisfied. This in my experience often comes down to mistakes in the choice of driver, how they are using the driver or a faulty driver (used) that they did not test to start with. These issues arise and remain unfixed because the builder is doing it in isolation. They have none to talk to, none to check their work, no one to fix their mistakes.
I have been filling this void in my travels for a number of years.
It all gets back to what you don’t know you don’t know.
I recently sorted out diy confusion on a jbl clone recently because the builder was about to throw in the towel. People loose confidence really quickly when they don’t understand what’s wrong.
Now he is smitten with his project.
The issue comes down to capability and experience.
In our local hifi clubs we have audio action groups that are lead by knowledgeable people with experience so the above is resolve or avoided.
It’s really common sense. But how often does building a diy loudspeaker involve common sense?…….Lol.
So taking the next step you believe you want a better loudspeaker but can’t afford the $5000 to $10,000 retail price.
It’s logical that if you are going to build something that you need certainty on your investment will work, certainty it can be built and certainty your expectations will be met.
Why on earth would you do it otherwise?
So your lowest risk is a clone of something you like or aspire to. Or a well regarded diy system by an experienced designer.
The Zaph projects or Troels projects are two of many published diy loudspeakers. I mention these despite the nay sayers who have never put together a diy system but have an opinion on what is good & bad.
If the drivers are going to cost you $1500-$2000 why would you spend that on the risk of getting it completely wrong as a first time project starting with your own unproven ideas to complete with a $5000-$10,000 commercial system?
The difference between a wise diy building and well the eccentric who believes everything he reads.
The reason is ego and the false belief that you can.
I’ve seen people blow thousands on soa drivers and give it up after two years of messing with it and never being satisfied. This in my experience often comes down to mistakes in the choice of driver, how they are using the driver or a faulty driver (used) that they did not test to start with. These issues arise and remain unfixed because the builder is doing it in isolation. They have none to talk to, none to check their work, no one to fix their mistakes.
I have been filling this void in my travels for a number of years.
It all gets back to what you don’t know you don’t know.
I recently sorted out diy confusion on a jbl clone recently because the builder was about to throw in the towel. People loose confidence really quickly when they don’t understand what’s wrong.
Now he is smitten with his project.
The issue comes down to capability and experience.
In our local hifi clubs we have audio action groups that are lead by knowledgeable people with experience so the above is resolve or avoided.
It’s really common sense. But how often does building a diy loudspeaker involve common sense?…….Lol.
Are you kidding Quick and Dirty 4430!
I agree the only point I was making is kits are fine but what do you really learn? Admittedly the kits I have built were Dyna Kits so electronics never built a loudspeaker kit. If they are anything like the Dyna Kits they are great but there was no theory at all.
It was strictly assembly instructions.
I don't think anyone believes there first attempt will be a homerun. You have to start somewhere and as long as you learn from your mistakes you will get better,
Rob 🙂
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We are all entitled to our opinions.
Anything to do with sound reproduction is subjective. That’s what your saying. No one would disagree with you.
What I’m talking about is the comparison of a competent diy design from scratch or likely hood with a total cost less than the Monitor Audio Bronze in the link.
It’s not going to happen. It never has and it never will.
Its not enough to read about it. You just need to listen. It's pretty much given that the better "electrician " the worse the sound. It is universal truth. Don't believe me , go and listen to
" electrician " systems. Those guys think they can solve it theoretically and once its sums up in theory they are done even if it sounds atrocious. Disregard the Asian philosophy...of one clapping hand and deeper end beyond the reach . Trust only your redneck instinct . NOTHING Else
" electrician " systems. Those guys think they can solve it theoretically and once its sums up in theory they are done even if it sounds atrocious. Disregard the Asian philosophy...of one clapping hand and deeper end beyond the reach . Trust only your redneck instinct . NOTHING Else
500 monkey coffins to reach the destination...
and still stuck in five note music and ten years old level of lyrics comprehension.Im helping to sell million dollar system of Shania Twain lover .
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I don’t personally know the Dyna kits so l can’t comment. In the Electronics Today International Magazine ( pre internet) a number of kits were published and the drivers sold through electronics retailers.
A designer called Stones Sound put together a range of projects using Peerless drivers that were sold through retailers. They were quite successful.
Back in the day when Dynaudio sold drivers they had a number of validated designs. Seas does this as does Visation in Germany.
My thinking is that if you’re not the technical or engineering type you won’t be into learning anything. You just wanna make it and listen to it. The folks on LHS are typically in that category.
What’s happening in the last 5 year is that developers are making available low ish cost measurements hardware and simulation programs.
Do people want to put their toe in the water?
Yes. But there is a lot more too it particularly if your WAF only like tall narrow boxes.
Unless the driver manufacturers like Dayton provides real measurement data pre purchase then it’s a catch 22. How can you model a system without real driver measurements. Do you understand the implications of baffle step using 6 1/2 inch drivers on a 200mm wide baffle?
I would bet the house that only the minority make the effort to do useable measurements. They are more inclined to pop online and scream for help or more often pick everyone’s brain in the hope that it brings certainty to their purchase decision.
In all the 4343-4344-4345 clone builds l have been involved in the owner has learnt a lot by reaching out, having it explained, identifying un resolved unresolved issues and being shown how to test and set it up.
The learning is only from mistakes after they found out the right way from someone else.
If everyone is attempting to build the same thing then collectively they will likely get to the other side of getting it to work.
I can't go as far as to call crossovers evil, but they have to be good, and they have to be right for the whole configuration from drivers down to the cabinet size, type, and shape. Most of us can buy the same drivers, and buy or build a box suitable for whatever woofer, but for a scratch design, the crossover has to be propriety on every front. It's a great place to be creative and thorough where many corporate speakers wouldn't bother to spend the time or the money, and it can really separate a decent speaker and a great speaker. Of the "3 C's" - Cabinet, Cmponents, and Crossover, the last one I'd want dictated to me is the crossover.
Mo Bronze is hardly a common "mainstream" design. First-order LPF (acording to the following thread which I haven't read) requiring highly proprietary drivers descended from the Mo Studio series (1990s high-end SOTA) which has served as my reference in the States and now in Beijing.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ronze-bx2-speakers-2010-2015-yr-model.388989/
Well l disagree. Perhaps you have an import embargo on that brand.
Anyway we have them advised by every hifi retailer here down under. I’ve personally audition those and they scream value.
Incidentally over in Hong Kong l heard a number of diy loudspeakers and a number of jbl consumer systems. The latter were simply better. There was no disagreement.
It’s easy to be cynical of something you’re not necessarily familiar with. This is why when auditioning a new loudspeaker you are especially cynical because it needs to prove itself to you.
What is wrong with it more than what is right about it. This is an emotional bias.
People also have sight bias based on appearance and certain features or characteristics. It it looks like an amateur looking loudspeaker it will sound like one right?
But if you heard that loudspeaker a number of times you accept it even if it’s not up to your expectations.
The whole loudspeaker thing is crazy crazy 🤪 but we do it anyway.
Anyway we have them advised by every hifi retailer here down under. I’ve personally audition those and they scream value.
Incidentally over in Hong Kong l heard a number of diy loudspeakers and a number of jbl consumer systems. The latter were simply better. There was no disagreement.
It’s easy to be cynical of something you’re not necessarily familiar with. This is why when auditioning a new loudspeaker you are especially cynical because it needs to prove itself to you.
What is wrong with it more than what is right about it. This is an emotional bias.
People also have sight bias based on appearance and certain features or characteristics. It it looks like an amateur looking loudspeaker it will sound like one right?
But if you heard that loudspeaker a number of times you accept it even if it’s not up to your expectations.
The whole loudspeaker thing is crazy crazy 🤪 but we do it anyway.
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Sure . I'm confident 1% here will know the difference between violin, viola and cello , clarinet and soprano saxophone. No idea about music beyond last 40 years. There are only two DIY assets in speaker world . 99% Troels and 1% everybody else. Go ahead , beat those Pros using the same recipe they are using having at the disposal your garage .
I am not sure of the point here.
My Spoke logic tells me a good, better and best loudspeaker would clearly allow one to identify the differences. Logically speaking that it is.
Did you know that playing a violin in a submarine in expressly forbidden. There are a few reasons psychologically but notably it would go be away it’s position.
My Spoke logic tells me a good, better and best loudspeaker would clearly allow one to identify the differences. Logically speaking that it is.
Did you know that playing a violin in a submarine in expressly forbidden. There are a few reasons psychologically but notably it would go be away it’s position.
I am pretty sure my very first DIY speaker would beat most off the shelf speakers around during the era in which I built them at the same price point.
Or even at triple my real costs; which involved getting a router and a new jig saw.
But not counting the cost of the three books I bought and the time talking to people in Jaycar and other places.
But I still consider that jumping in the deep end because nothing beats actually doing it.
At the same time I have spent some amount of money on cheap drivers that I'd not now use; except for cheap and disposable speakers for parties and such.
What this hobby has given me is a huge amount of pleasure tinkering with other peoples cheap speakers to help them get more from their investments at a reasonably low cost.
Or even at triple my real costs; which involved getting a router and a new jig saw.
But not counting the cost of the three books I bought and the time talking to people in Jaycar and other places.
But I still consider that jumping in the deep end because nothing beats actually doing it.
At the same time I have spent some amount of money on cheap drivers that I'd not now use; except for cheap and disposable speakers for parties and such.
What this hobby has given me is a huge amount of pleasure tinkering with other peoples cheap speakers to help them get more from their investments at a reasonably low cost.
Of course. My opinion is to embrace the redneck within and "fick" the violin / viola / cello because it's impossible to have it all. Pros can't do that because they have to answer to that 1 % since it's the only part of population having money...
Hence the neutered performance of high end speakers with music most people want to listen .
Hence the neutered performance of high end speakers with music most people want to listen .