Since I'm one of the people you seem to be insulting (maybe, I'm not really sure since you seem to be contradicting yourself, but whatever): if you don't understand how a Stereophile Class A rated speaker that measures very well ties directly into what this thread is about, I really don't know what to tell you. Perhaps read the original post again, like this part specifically: "especially let me know if you've listened to a DIY right next to a high end off the shelf unit."
And just to reiterate, no one said the LS50 is the best speaker that can be made or is the limit of what people are trying to do.
This thread seems to be going off the rails.
yeah this this thing makes me sick! I cannot stand digital & associates, but three amplifiers in a 12X4 cm PCB with no heat problems and the ability to receive BT streaming is the "new thing" so we must face reality.
Little portable system, before applying some lead sheets ( I cannot stand extra sounds! )
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Exactly, that's what this thread is about yet very few seems to have done comparisons.
Or maybe they don't want to tell about it 🙄
DIYS speaker building is suffering from a number of lies:
The first is you only need the most expensive chassis and get a world class speaker.
The second is that the quality (=brand and price) of crossover parts matters for the sound of a loudspeaker.
The third and biggest is a lie by not telling. No one tells interested people that any speaker combination is only as good or bad as it's match to it's INDIVIDUAL crossover.
Why do newbies that come here know any BS someone told about any brand, but believe in earnest, the crossover, which is simply the most important part of a project, can be "done by any idiot" and is just some secondary accessory hidden in the box you "do later"?
They are similar to those that complain about the sound of their speaker and ask which silver-platin-gold-resistor or capacitor would make it better.
Both are refusing to get a 25$ measuring system. You can proof this in hundreds of speaker building threads here. "Yes, maybe later, when this project sounds good, I get a measuring system and learn how to use a (self explaining) software, but not now."
Here even is a huge thread promoting "alternative" crossover construction for people too lazy to learn to measure anything. The catch is, it is soo long and complicated, those unwilling to learn how to measure and simulate are to lazy to read it, too.
The reseller of speaker chassis are those that should inform customers. Anyway if you run a bussines living from sales, even if you have the best developed kit's on offer, you will be hear from hardly any customer "what if I get this kit and take the better (cheaper, smaller, larger...) chasssis XY. If you tell the truth, the customer will buy at he competitor that tells him he can. So truth, facts and sales talk don't give a good combination.
The first is you only need the most expensive chassis and get a world class speaker.
The second is that the quality (=brand and price) of crossover parts matters for the sound of a loudspeaker.
The third and biggest is a lie by not telling. No one tells interested people that any speaker combination is only as good or bad as it's match to it's INDIVIDUAL crossover.
Why do newbies that come here know any BS someone told about any brand, but believe in earnest, the crossover, which is simply the most important part of a project, can be "done by any idiot" and is just some secondary accessory hidden in the box you "do later"?
They are similar to those that complain about the sound of their speaker and ask which silver-platin-gold-resistor or capacitor would make it better.
Both are refusing to get a 25$ measuring system. You can proof this in hundreds of speaker building threads here. "Yes, maybe later, when this project sounds good, I get a measuring system and learn how to use a (self explaining) software, but not now."
Here even is a huge thread promoting "alternative" crossover construction for people too lazy to learn to measure anything. The catch is, it is soo long and complicated, those unwilling to learn how to measure and simulate are to lazy to read it, too.
The reseller of speaker chassis are those that should inform customers. Anyway if you run a bussines living from sales, even if you have the best developed kit's on offer, you will be hear from hardly any customer "what if I get this kit and take the better (cheaper, smaller, larger...) chasssis XY. If you tell the truth, the customer will buy at he competitor that tells him he can. So truth, facts and sales talk don't give a good combination.
How good are our DIY units compared to off the shelf stuff?
The question really needs a lot more qualification to be debated constructively.
Which off the shelf stuff versus which diy stuff?
Then talk about in what era?
Loudspeakers on the consumer front have gotten smaller and more sleek over the past 4 decades.
Back in the early days of hifi there were mostly large bookshelf and floor standing systems. Both these categories have been replaced by small bookshelf systems & floor standing towers.
I don’t believe diy loudspeakers have ever had a close association with consumer systems in either era. The exception are clones for quite famous systems.
There are a number of diy categories such as the hi efficiency camp, the full range Fostex driver camp, the horn camp, diy electrostatics, ribbons, massive transmission lines, eggs, coffin couplers and so on.
You used to be able to buy consumer drivers from hifi dealers in the 1970’s and build your own jbl design from plans. Bozak did something similar as did Tannoy. I think AR killed that idea with the invention of the acoustic suspension system for apartments in NY and Brooklyn. Pass cashed in on that trend with the Aleph power amps.
The situation right now l think blurred by a lot of online influencers attempting to play down the hi end in favour of the best of budget systems by claiming the hi end is nonsense.
Its just a false narrative to earn income from YouTube advertising.
By attaching the narrative with “if it doesn’t look like an M2 on a Klippel scanner it’s claimed it’s not acceptable”. This has caused a polarised view of what is a good loudspeaker. People are chasing their tails trying the understand it.
What needs to be put in perspective is that there are more inconsistencies in living room acoustics and recordings than you can poke a stick at.
Where does diy have a clear advantage?
One advantage the smart diy builder has is to design a loudspeaker that will work in his room using outboard sub woofers for a smoother better bass response.
This approach directly translates to an improvement over a one size fits all approach adopted in tower system while also providing a cost saving. This is a result of a smaller main enclosure and less drivers needed and a much simpler implementation.
There are technical benefits too including making the main enclosure relatively efficient up in the mid 90 db area. Therefore less powerful amplifiers are needed. This provides the opportunity for a diy power amplifier.
Dave Wilson was one of the first to consider this approach with the highly successful Wilson Watt. Bose then saw the market for satellite systems among others. More recently OMA devised the OMA mini which caused quite a stir. Such an idea could be the basis of a very compelling diy project.
The question really needs a lot more qualification to be debated constructively.
Which off the shelf stuff versus which diy stuff?
Then talk about in what era?
Loudspeakers on the consumer front have gotten smaller and more sleek over the past 4 decades.
Back in the early days of hifi there were mostly large bookshelf and floor standing systems. Both these categories have been replaced by small bookshelf systems & floor standing towers.
I don’t believe diy loudspeakers have ever had a close association with consumer systems in either era. The exception are clones for quite famous systems.
There are a number of diy categories such as the hi efficiency camp, the full range Fostex driver camp, the horn camp, diy electrostatics, ribbons, massive transmission lines, eggs, coffin couplers and so on.
You used to be able to buy consumer drivers from hifi dealers in the 1970’s and build your own jbl design from plans. Bozak did something similar as did Tannoy. I think AR killed that idea with the invention of the acoustic suspension system for apartments in NY and Brooklyn. Pass cashed in on that trend with the Aleph power amps.
The situation right now l think blurred by a lot of online influencers attempting to play down the hi end in favour of the best of budget systems by claiming the hi end is nonsense.
Its just a false narrative to earn income from YouTube advertising.
By attaching the narrative with “if it doesn’t look like an M2 on a Klippel scanner it’s claimed it’s not acceptable”. This has caused a polarised view of what is a good loudspeaker. People are chasing their tails trying the understand it.
What needs to be put in perspective is that there are more inconsistencies in living room acoustics and recordings than you can poke a stick at.
Where does diy have a clear advantage?
One advantage the smart diy builder has is to design a loudspeaker that will work in his room using outboard sub woofers for a smoother better bass response.
This approach directly translates to an improvement over a one size fits all approach adopted in tower system while also providing a cost saving. This is a result of a smaller main enclosure and less drivers needed and a much simpler implementation.
There are technical benefits too including making the main enclosure relatively efficient up in the mid 90 db area. Therefore less powerful amplifiers are needed. This provides the opportunity for a diy power amplifier.
Dave Wilson was one of the first to consider this approach with the highly successful Wilson Watt. Bose then saw the market for satellite systems among others. More recently OMA devised the OMA mini which caused quite a stir. Such an idea could be the basis of a very compelling diy project.
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I'm sure there are some/many people that believe those things. But I don't think DIY is SUFFERING from those things...I don't know anyone who believes them.
I had a neighbor remark that my wife was a really good piano player. He simply refused to believe that it was my stereo. When I told him my wife was barely at the high school level and our piano was a 100 year old, out of tune, church piano his eyes got really big and he started babbling about a room mate in college that had some really big Kenwood speakers that were really great. So, I brought him in for a listen. He liked it very much, but said his wife would never let him have a stereo like that. I have several sets of speakers and two sets of amplifiers and told him he wouldn’t need all of that, and that there are many really good loudspeakers. His wife didn’t want anything bigger than a shoebox.
Hence Bose Cubes and blue tooth speakers.. Of all my friends who had decent stereo's back in the day only me and my friend Billy still have one.
It's a different world.
Rob 🙂
Ask a veterinarian how many male customers have their dog castrated. He will tell you hardly none, it's always the wife that wants the crown jewels removed.
Now, replace crown jewel by large loudspeaker. It is a thing about being the most mighty person in the house.
Now, replace crown jewel by large loudspeaker. It is a thing about being the most mighty person in the house.
Great post, Turbo.
Since the internet days, I have seen numerous posts on forums with men referring to WAF and saying 'nope, wife says they're too big and gotta go'.
I've also seen posts saying 'wife just gave me permission to make purchase'. I've seen this on speaker forums, dirt bike forums, gun forums and others.
WAF means that she wants special consideration over what he wants. What about compromise?
I also don't care for the saying 'happy wife, happy life. Sounds like she's selfish if she doesn't get her way.
I'm fortunate in having a great little lady that has never been like that and has often been fully behind these things.
And helps me building the speaker cabinets and really likes sanding the speaker cabinets.
Weird times we're in. Men just need to grow a pair.
Since the internet days, I have seen numerous posts on forums with men referring to WAF and saying 'nope, wife says they're too big and gotta go'.
I've also seen posts saying 'wife just gave me permission to make purchase'. I've seen this on speaker forums, dirt bike forums, gun forums and others.
WAF means that she wants special consideration over what he wants. What about compromise?
I also don't care for the saying 'happy wife, happy life. Sounds like she's selfish if she doesn't get her way.
I'm fortunate in having a great little lady that has never been like that and has often been fully behind these things.
And helps me building the speaker cabinets and really likes sanding the speaker cabinets.
Weird times we're in. Men just need to grow a pair.
If you have the tools and the knowledge, yes, you can build something that bests retail products for less money.
However, as one of my favorite quotes puts it,
"I've spent thousands of dollars learning to build cheap speakers."
However, as one of my favorite quotes puts it,
"I've spent thousands of dollars learning to build cheap speakers."
There is done truth in Turbo’s post although l don’t agree with the sensitivity in how it was portrayed.
The truth is in how that type of situation evolved. The actual blame goes to the use of the internet that has made things seem either simple or less important than they really are.
The main points all get back to having a master of an authentic design to follow from the outset with a few customisable variations. This is more important for multi way diy projects than full range single driver systems that are still popular in diy circles.
One of the real problems for diy builders is obtaining useful measurements inside their home. So again tis requires a master reference measurement take by someone outside. Once you start measuring anything larger than an 8 inch woofer with the correct nearfield measurement distance of 3 x the cone diameter difficulties arise with room interference. No you absolutely cannot obtain an accurate broad frequency measurement with the mic one centre metre from the dust gap. This results in response error in the measurement.
I can tell you un categorically that certain capacitors are suited to metal dome and others are preferred for soft domes. I can also tell you that paralleling up four or more smaller capacitors to make up the value required improves the technical performance and the subjectivity of the loudspeaker. This makes it far less expensive.
These are some of the things a diy builder needs to know.
The truth is in how that type of situation evolved. The actual blame goes to the use of the internet that has made things seem either simple or less important than they really are.
The main points all get back to having a master of an authentic design to follow from the outset with a few customisable variations. This is more important for multi way diy projects than full range single driver systems that are still popular in diy circles.
One of the real problems for diy builders is obtaining useful measurements inside their home. So again tis requires a master reference measurement take by someone outside. Once you start measuring anything larger than an 8 inch woofer with the correct nearfield measurement distance of 3 x the cone diameter difficulties arise with room interference. No you absolutely cannot obtain an accurate broad frequency measurement with the mic one centre metre from the dust gap. This results in response error in the measurement.
I can tell you un categorically that certain capacitors are suited to metal dome and others are preferred for soft domes. I can also tell you that paralleling up four or more smaller capacitors to make up the value required improves the technical performance and the subjectivity of the loudspeaker. This makes it far less expensive.
These are some of the things a diy builder needs to know.
Looking at the example of the OMA mini the diy builder has an opportunity to be creative with the sub woofer.
It could be a 1/4 horn, a rear loaded folded horn, a bandpass, sealed, compound or reflex design.
The clincher is in selecting a design that will allow good performance up to a crossover point of 150 hertz. This might seem a high crossover point but not for a musical sub. The wave length is about 2 meters so the sub can sit right up against the floor wall junction and obtain an advantageous +6 of boundary gain at low frequencies. This translates to a smaller enclosure than you might think. The bass has far less ripple in the upper 150-300 hertz region due to the lower 1/4 wave reflections off the wall boundary. While the main loudspeaker can be positioned for the best sound stage.
This kind of focused or structured approach has a real payoff for diy.
Really excellent pro mid bass drivers can be used in the main loudspeaker to deliver life like sound reproduction along with a suitable wave guide and compression driver.
Diy loudspeakers don’t have to be difficult if you are provided an explanation of some real choices that you can build with great results.
It could be a 1/4 horn, a rear loaded folded horn, a bandpass, sealed, compound or reflex design.
The clincher is in selecting a design that will allow good performance up to a crossover point of 150 hertz. This might seem a high crossover point but not for a musical sub. The wave length is about 2 meters so the sub can sit right up against the floor wall junction and obtain an advantageous +6 of boundary gain at low frequencies. This translates to a smaller enclosure than you might think. The bass has far less ripple in the upper 150-300 hertz region due to the lower 1/4 wave reflections off the wall boundary. While the main loudspeaker can be positioned for the best sound stage.
This kind of focused or structured approach has a real payoff for diy.
Really excellent pro mid bass drivers can be used in the main loudspeaker to deliver life like sound reproduction along with a suitable wave guide and compression driver.
Diy loudspeakers don’t have to be difficult if you are provided an explanation of some real choices that you can build with great results.
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Why make things so hard, so lofty?
DIY is simply grab some drivers, build some boxes.
Take all the measurements you can, anywhere inside or out, any way, ponder them and listen. And reiterate.
Sure, study proven designs...use your eyes, plagiarize. 😀
But dang, can we pls forget all this "prerequisite knowledge needed" nonsense.
Wade in, have fun!!
Another jump in with both feet! That's how I started, first thing I ever built was a pair of subwoofers. Still have them still working 20 years later! That is a potential problem with DIY, the gradual accumulation of drivers and speakers. Feel like a packrat!
Rob 🙂
When it comes down to it, it really all depends on how deep your pockets are. Price to performance can vary greatly between manufacturers especially on DIY parts. Those people who make the blankiest blank speakers are well aware of who their clientele are.
On one end of the spectrum you have Purifi, who are pretty much all a bunch of seasoned audio nerds making OEM and bespoke product for DIY. Their parts are also an arm and a leg, and the sad part is that's not even the most expensive it can get (see acuton)
On the other end, you have manufacturers who research the hell out of all the stuff the Purifi guys do, but make a completed product. I always like to point to the Magico M9 as a good example of this. Honeycomb aluminum body with a carbon fiber skin and a very complex array of innards made of the same.
It's already been said here, but to reiterate: it's about time and money flat out. That includes making something that doesn't cost that much but still sound great. Grado on the lower end has a set of headphones that beat the pants off of some more expensive models.
On one end of the spectrum you have Purifi, who are pretty much all a bunch of seasoned audio nerds making OEM and bespoke product for DIY. Their parts are also an arm and a leg, and the sad part is that's not even the most expensive it can get (see acuton)
On the other end, you have manufacturers who research the hell out of all the stuff the Purifi guys do, but make a completed product. I always like to point to the Magico M9 as a good example of this. Honeycomb aluminum body with a carbon fiber skin and a very complex array of innards made of the same.
It's already been said here, but to reiterate: it's about time and money flat out. That includes making something that doesn't cost that much but still sound great. Grado on the lower end has a set of headphones that beat the pants off of some more expensive models.
Lots of talk about the possibilities with diy, that we already know...
But still, no one who compares what they build with of the shelf speakers?
I get that it is a hobby and fun, me included.
But I still want to compare it with a professional speaker just to see if succeeded with my project.
But still, no one who compares what they build with of the shelf speakers?
I get that it is a hobby and fun, me included.
But I still want to compare it with a professional speaker just to see if succeeded with my project.
But a modest project is recommened for starting out. Unlikely you will build just one. pair. ;^)
dave