markus76 said:
I would say that the thin ice is not really under me. I'm not the one making claims of audiblity that aren't supported. There are good reasons to believe in the importance of lateral reflections - you know that - and I'll set my priorities on what I know to be important, not on what I don't know.
And let's not mistake "issues" with "priorities". If a perfectly smooth null free sound field were possible I'd be interested, but its not. Given that, my "priorities" dictate doing the best job possible on what I *know* to be important and that is the horizontal response. Until I can see, or better yet hear, a problem associated with the vertical response I see no reason to change my "priorities".
gedlee said:
Fine. DON'T change the resistor in the Nathan crossover to move the null upward, then.... 😀
I take a pragmatic approach to the whole vertical pattern thing. I don't like the sound to change (noticeably) when I stand up. If it does, it annoys me and I consider it a problem. If it doesn't, it's not a problem. That's the forest and I'd rather concentrate on that than on all the many trees of different ways you can get there and 'my tree is better than yours' arguments. 😉
ZilchLab said:
My priority is to keep the Bose speaker stand, i.e. give me something to move the null higher, please.
Best, Markus
gedlee said:
Of course you don't, and you don't need to do any number of things people take exception to in one respect or another. You also don't need to achieve any significant commercial success. 😉
markus76 said:
Markus, since you have measuring gear, I'd try reversing the wires on the tweeter and see what happens. If Earl is using 2nd order electrical crossovers, giving a 3rd order acoustical response, there will be a null either just above or just below the speaker depending on which way you wire it. The pics Wayne posted showed the null just below for the Summa. Your pics show the null just above for the Nathan. Food for thought only, may not work at all.....
Edit: if that doesn't work, try flipping the speaker upside down so the null is at the bottom.
catapult said:
Trust me, that won't work.
Markus, if "your" issue is moving the null a little higher, then that's reasonable and feasible. I would point out that you own data shows its gone at "woofer" height, so basically your stands are too short 🙂
Earl, I was editing while you were posting. What about flipping the speaker upside down and leaving the crossover alone? Markus's graphs look like that should give about the same sound sitting or standing.
gedlee said:
Nah, his ears are too high.
[He should waste the couch, and sit on the floor.... 😛 ]
Sorry guys, have to stick to my priorities: Bose stands, Sofa and ear mounting 🙂
Best, Markus
Best, Markus
ScottG said:
I'm doubt that there is any correlation between refining vertical response in the manner discussed here, and commercial success.
Sheldon
catapult said:
Thats up to Markus
Sheldon said:
I doubt that there is any correlation between sound quality and commercial success.
Let's wait if Earl can improve things in the pair of Nathans he's building right now before dumping anything.
Best, Markus
Best, Markus
Love those in-ear mics. Wonder whether they can reduce the noise of the material rubbing against the ear?markus76 said:
markus76 said:
O.K., nail them Bose stands to the ceiling, then.
[Jus' tryin' to be helpful here. 😉 ]
Did you and Skywave ever connect for a listening session...?
Sheldon said:
It may have seemed a trite quip, but it wasn't.
Commercial success is largely about providing what people need or want, and somehow managing to make a profit somewhere in the "middle". I think it's obvious here that people *want* a better vertical response from Earl's products. If just one person has this desire, you can bet there are multiples more that *also* want this. IF Earl can provide it without substantially ruining the product, then it should be provided.
-Not because it necessarily improves the product's actual performance, but rather that it improves the perception of the product and the perception of the provider of that product (by providing what is often described as "customer support" and "goodwill").
To compound this issue is that Earl is marketing a *premium* product. He is stating that it is better and charging more than most of the competition. When people consider such a product to purchase, they tend to both expect and demand more, and not simply what the provider deems as "more". (..HUGE difference there, and I couldn't possibly emphasize this aspect enough.)
gedlee said:
Of course there is, but it may not be what you perceive to be "quality sound". Case in point: you disagree with the "Toole" wide-horizontal dispersion. On the other hand a *lot* of people would agree with Toole. Does this make Toole and the others correct and you wrong? Does it mean that you are correct and Tool et al are wrong?
HOWEVER, for the sake of commerce these questions are irrelevant. You "build" with *your* market. If your market becomes to small, then you expand your market. The critical thing though is that you need to first understand your market, and then meet their "needs". (..which is why I made the comment.) 😉
Of course I'd *also* agree that sound quality or "sound flavor", is foremost an industry of pleasure based on *fashion*, not some absolute ideal of perfected sound (..no matter how many purchasers and magazines go in search of the "absolute sound").
This is a basic rule in the commercial world. (Hmm, even in private life, wife especially😀) In my proffession I have to listen to customers and tell them my opinion of their ideas. If it goes against customers opinion/theories, in most cases I have to prove it.
If I refuse proving it, or even consider it. Sooner or later customer is gone....
Cheers,
Peter
Ford has a better idea?
Earl,
You have taken on quite an endeavor: designing, sourcing, manufacturing, marketing and customer service all under one roof.
Kinda like Junior Achievement on steroids. 😉
Can you relate to us how much of your "commercial" philosophy stems from your experiences with Detroit automakers?
Earl,
You have taken on quite an endeavor: designing, sourcing, manufacturing, marketing and customer service all under one roof.
Kinda like Junior Achievement on steroids. 😉
Can you relate to us how much of your "commercial" philosophy stems from your experiences with Detroit automakers?
There are two aspects related with design performance if this is the main issue:
1. How can the technical data look better than others from all measurable aspects.
2. How can the technical merits be described in audiophile terms so that they have a better perception of what to expect even before they listen.
The various forums are good for getting some feedback. However, when it comes to actual sales of finshed products, there still needs to be someone that is able to relate to the customer to guide him/her to find the product. And you just have to find that store that shares your belief and presents a comparible presentation of your product.
I was helping a friend tend a booth at a bike show here. It was very interesting to meet with various customers. Some wanted low cost, some wanted uniqueness, some wanted something that they could provide as additional gift to their customers, some just wanted to know what was new this year. So for each customer, rather than only let them browse through the bunch of flashy things, I actually tried to understand what their needs were. Most customers liked it because I quickly zoomed in and found a product that was exactly what they were looking for. The look, the feel, the functionality, the price, all were very important.
1. How can the technical data look better than others from all measurable aspects.
2. How can the technical merits be described in audiophile terms so that they have a better perception of what to expect even before they listen.
The various forums are good for getting some feedback. However, when it comes to actual sales of finshed products, there still needs to be someone that is able to relate to the customer to guide him/her to find the product. And you just have to find that store that shares your belief and presents a comparible presentation of your product.
I was helping a friend tend a booth at a bike show here. It was very interesting to meet with various customers. Some wanted low cost, some wanted uniqueness, some wanted something that they could provide as additional gift to their customers, some just wanted to know what was new this year. So for each customer, rather than only let them browse through the bunch of flashy things, I actually tried to understand what their needs were. Most customers liked it because I quickly zoomed in and found a product that was exactly what they were looking for. The look, the feel, the functionality, the price, all were very important.
Re: Ford has a better idea?
I would probably say "none". I was always a contrarian in the automobile industry, I never thought that they were running the business right. I did not find much there that impressed me, with very few exceptions. I did learn a lot about reliability at Ford. Cars are very reliable on the whole.
The american car companies tried to be all things to all people and ended up just being average to most people. Not a very enduring position in the market. I always had more admiration for the companies that did the right thing even if it wasn't always the most popular. Take Honda - never a styling leader because styling was not enduring. But a Honda is an engineering marvel of reliability and performance *value*. I admire value.
Ed LaFontaine said:
I would probably say "none". I was always a contrarian in the automobile industry, I never thought that they were running the business right. I did not find much there that impressed me, with very few exceptions. I did learn a lot about reliability at Ford. Cars are very reliable on the whole.
The american car companies tried to be all things to all people and ended up just being average to most people. Not a very enduring position in the market. I always had more admiration for the companies that did the right thing even if it wasn't always the most popular. Take Honda - never a styling leader because styling was not enduring. But a Honda is an engineering marvel of reliability and performance *value*. I admire value.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.