ScottG said:
So you really think Earls behavior here is holding back people from buying his speakers?
P.S. There is no "the net" but there is a lot of *here*, *here*, *here* and *here*
markus76 said:
In this forum, to an extent yes - but perhaps only to a minor extent. (..polling is difficult to get good accuracy in an environment like this.)
The thing is though, I don't think most of the people here represent his target market. In fact I don't think Earl has a good idea of what his market really is.
Now a lurker (and potential serious purchaser) however that searched for Earl's info. (other than that provided on his website), could well be "turned-off" by what's posted here. THAT could be a serious impediment, and there could be others as well.
markus76 said:
We should be grateful for Earl's telling everybody it sucks? 🙄
gedlee said:
Itself a gratuitous insult.
C'mon, Earl, let yer hair down and call it by its given name....
markus76 said:
How soon we forget.
Gotta get past his internet "persona" before he's any fun at all.... 😉
Oh, the EconoWave (or is it just a horn?) sucks? Who said that? Maybe then it's safer to buy one of the Gedlee original Summa waveguide speakers. They sound just great.
Internet marketing works 🙂
Internet marketing works 🙂
markus76 said:
Low cost Horn and Driver leading to "EconoWave".
Earl's comments (in the paper):
"..substantial amount of internal reflection";
"The JBL horn is precisely the type of devices that has given horns a bad name. The pronounced coloration.."
"..if sound quality is a factor then this device will have a fairly poor sound quality.."
Yeah, that's pretty much saying anything ("EconoWave" included), using the JBL horn sucks. 😉
markus76 said:
You're inviting counterpoint?
ScottG said:
And the barrage has continued throughout this thread.
If Earl made room for others pursuing the same objectives, he wouldn't be so lonely....
FrankWW said:
Just came back from a nice time out with an excellent meal surrounded by friends and family (..it being father's day and all that).
I hope others had a similar good experience. 🙂
Russellc is the true wizard behind EconWaveguide's viral marketing division.
Setting the record straight.
Markus, think we could try again to align schedules within the semi-distant future?
Setting the record straight.
Markus, think we could try again to align schedules within the semi-distant future?
I was being polite. Too much fatuous nonsense:
Doesn't sound as if you know what you're talking about. Market research is very expensive. It's often (nearly always) less expensive for a small operator to put product out in some reasonable venues and see what happens. There's even a chance he might recoup costs or even make money.
You don't know that. You're just making stuff up. The effect could just as easily be in the other direction.
Of course, if his stands were a better height this might not be quite so much of an issue - but they're very pretty and I don't blame him for wanting to keep them. Geddes basically said he'd see what he could do about it. Quite obliging customer service - good to see.
Hey, you do have a dog in the fight after all! Kind of a small one, but I notice owners are very fond of their dogs, however tiny they be.... '😉' (It's a $20 dog on YouTube)
Objectively, that plastic horn is sort of mediocre but as Geddes was polite about it, he said it represents a good value for the price, and he's right of course because worse stuff is sold for more. I think he would be correct to say it won't sound as good as his waveguide, if for no other reason, because the mouth is not terminated properly: it has that edge.
Just because you are pushing higher quality mediocrity, as opposed to lower quality mediocrity, is no reason for Geddes or anyone else to give you the thumbs up.
He thinks his product represents a much better value and he says so. Is he supposed to be mealy-mouthed and PC about it? You certainly say what you think: "gratuitously condemned, yada yada"
Like I said, you guys should get out a bit more. Raise your horizons, and stop encouraging people to chase after slightly higher than lowest common denominator.
FrankWW said:
We DO get out more, of course, and that is very much the point: EconoWave is an entry-level platform for exploring the principles Earl teaches, and we make no apologies for it. An investment of $208 and practically anything with a woofer gets anyone with minimal DIY skills an opportunity for hands-on experience with compression drivers, waveguides, constant directivity, HF compensation, time alignment, imaging vs. soundstage, early reflections, room treatment, yada, yada, and for many, represents a radical departure and substantial upgrade from anything they've ever heard or had before. Where they go from there, if desired, is up to them and as I'm sure you're aware, there are lots of options, all of them plenty good DIY speakergeek fun.
Look at the data Earl generated on the EconoWaveguide with an inexpensive Selenium driver. Do YOU believe, on that basis, it warrants such condemnation as appears in the "analysis" he posted on his website which, again, is the subject of this thread?
BAH. It's short-sighted self-promotional pap is what, as we have just demonstrated in the last several pages, and I'm here calling him on it. Confronted with his own less than desirable vertical response, somehow the vertical diminishes in priority and significance....
Re: Re: Ford has a better idea?
I have no idea how you hauled the Summas in your Honda. It took me an hour to figure out how to shoehorn them into my Accord Coupe when I picked them up from the Fed Ex office 😛
gedlee said:
I have no idea how you hauled the Summas in your Honda. It took me an hour to figure out how to shoehorn them into my Accord Coupe when I picked them up from the Fed Ex office 😛
ScottG said:
The facts aren't readily apparent; only "students" of Geddes design can ferret them out....
Skywave-Rider said:Russellc is the true wizard behind EconWaveguide's viral marketing division.
Setting the record straight.
Markus, think we could try again to align schedules within the semi-distant future?
If anyone in the Pacific NW wants to hear a set of Summas, I'd love to drag them out to an audio show and show them off.
I'd also like to demo the unity horns in my car, which should be ready for prime-time in the next 3-4 weeks.
FrankWW said:
My dog is "optional," and I do not even promote it in the AudioKarma reference thread.
FrankWW said:
He didn't say that. He said it sucks.
FrankWW said:
We didn't expect anything more than an objective appraisal, but EconoWave has done rather well even without that, thank you.
FrankWW said:
Nope, and I said it back on Page 1 of this thread:
ZilchLab said:
The results speak for themselves. Everything in context....
PROBLEM is, too few get past "It sucks," now, even, over a year later.
That's what I meant in suggesting that with credibility comes an obligation to exercise it responsibly, or risk losing it....
Zilch,
as far as I can see you're the only one that repeatedly stated that the EconoThingy sucks. Earl's last statement was rather positive: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1861126#post1861126
Looking at subjective data, all EconoWave owners like their speakers and all Summa owners love theirs. The only person that has heard both stated that the Summa sounds better. So what would be wrong with a colloquial "all other speaker suck" with regards to content?
What about a double blind test or do you want to keep the discussion on flame war level?
Best, Markus
as far as I can see you're the only one that repeatedly stated that the EconoThingy sucks. Earl's last statement was rather positive: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1861126#post1861126
Looking at subjective data, all EconoWave owners like their speakers and all Summa owners love theirs. The only person that has heard both stated that the Summa sounds better. So what would be wrong with a colloquial "all other speaker suck" with regards to content?
What about a double blind test or do you want to keep the discussion on flame war level?
Best, Markus
"I said in my first review that it was a great deal and it is. If low cost were the only criteria it would win out hands down. But there can be "value" all along the performance scale, "value" doesn't mean "low cost" or "low performance". It means the lowest cost for the desired performance. I believe that my products are that."
None of this statement "over-rides" these statements:
"..substantial amount of internal reflection";
"The JBL horn is precisely the type of devices that has given horns a bad name. The pronounced coloration.."
"..if sound quality is a factor then this device will have a fairly poor sound quality.."
IMO he still thinks the Horn sucks with respect to audio reproduction quality. That it is simply a "great deal" must accompany the context - and the context remains the same: it sucks. 😉
Of course I don't care if he thinks it sucks or not.
On the other hand I don't think most of the Comments on that paper were proven either.
1. Is a build date of 2002 Old? Is a design date of 2000 Old? Does it matter?
2. What is a "substantial amount of internal reflection", and what isn't? How can a reader view those plots and say "yes or no" to that criteria if they had it?
3. What is "highly directional" and how again how can a reader view the plots and determine this?
4. If a vertical response is inconsequential, then does it matter if any equalization effects it? What is "desirable" with the vertical response? What isn't?
5. Is the ESP "free from most resonances"? What resonances? Where? How can a reader look at the plots and determine this?
6. How does this JBL horn give horns a bad name? Are other horns even compared?
7. What is "pronounced coloration"? How can a reader look at the plots and determine this? (..i.e. see question #2.)
8. Will not the time response of the ESP12 *also* be always smeared in time?
9. How can you have a "polar response that is truly CD in all planes", and yet have a "hole" on the primary axis?
Yeah, I know.. "I should get out more". 😉
On the other hand I look at it for what it is: a piece of marketing, and not a very good one because it doesn't "connect the dots" for readers in an easily identifiable manner.
None of this statement "over-rides" these statements:
"..substantial amount of internal reflection";
"The JBL horn is precisely the type of devices that has given horns a bad name. The pronounced coloration.."
"..if sound quality is a factor then this device will have a fairly poor sound quality.."
IMO he still thinks the Horn sucks with respect to audio reproduction quality. That it is simply a "great deal" must accompany the context - and the context remains the same: it sucks. 😉
Of course I don't care if he thinks it sucks or not.
On the other hand I don't think most of the Comments on that paper were proven either.
1. Is a build date of 2002 Old? Is a design date of 2000 Old? Does it matter?
2. What is a "substantial amount of internal reflection", and what isn't? How can a reader view those plots and say "yes or no" to that criteria if they had it?
3. What is "highly directional" and how again how can a reader view the plots and determine this?
4. If a vertical response is inconsequential, then does it matter if any equalization effects it? What is "desirable" with the vertical response? What isn't?
5. Is the ESP "free from most resonances"? What resonances? Where? How can a reader look at the plots and determine this?
6. How does this JBL horn give horns a bad name? Are other horns even compared?
7. What is "pronounced coloration"? How can a reader look at the plots and determine this? (..i.e. see question #2.)
8. Will not the time response of the ESP12 *also* be always smeared in time?
9. How can you have a "polar response that is truly CD in all planes", and yet have a "hole" on the primary axis?
Yeah, I know.. "I should get out more". 😉
On the other hand I look at it for what it is: a piece of marketing, and not a very good one because it doesn't "connect the dots" for readers in an easily identifiable manner.
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