DSP
congratulations on AX10 mod. The circuit diagram shows a DSP - is this being bypassed by the Kit2 mod ?
I just bought a cheap Pioneer surround sound amp - it has upsampling to 24/96 (presumably just for digital input). Sound is very good for CD - particularly treble - smooth open like DVD Audio.
So ... an outboard DAC can improve, via kit2, on the onboard DSP+DAC because
1. the outboard DAC is better quality than the on board DSP+DAC
OR
2. Kit 2 provides a much better signal for the DAC
Are you using the TentLabs final reclock on the SPDIF out ?
congratulations on AX10 mod. The circuit diagram shows a DSP - is this being bypassed by the Kit2 mod ?
I just bought a cheap Pioneer surround sound amp - it has upsampling to 24/96 (presumably just for digital input). Sound is very good for CD - particularly treble - smooth open like DVD Audio.
So ... an outboard DAC can improve, via kit2, on the onboard DSP+DAC because
1. the outboard DAC is better quality than the on board DSP+DAC
OR
2. Kit 2 provides a much better signal for the DAC
Are you using the TentLabs final reclock on the SPDIF out ?
ax-10 pics
A reputable shop did this for me, they're in Hong Kong
http://www.avwalkman.com/
I'll get to the questions as I get the answers from them, the unit still have to get home in the next few days due to chinese holidays, first some photos :
A reputable shop did this for me, they're in Hong Kong
http://www.avwalkman.com/
I'll get to the questions as I get the answers from them, the unit still have to get home in the next few days due to chinese holidays, first some photos :
Attachments
Re: DSP
Chatted briefly with the shop, the V2 kit works by using the original DAC so there is no way to avoid the AX10 DSP. The AX10 has a very sophisticated buffered output so this was reused, I think this means we're not doing reclocking. The AX-10 was a very complicated design so there were considerable groping around ... esp the signals were not i2c, left right channels are separate so we have to desolder something on the PCB to accommodate this.
If I remember right from others at this forum the problem here (and in many japanese units) was the DAC output stage uses too many Opamps (like 10 pairs of sth) for its own good so some get good results by replacing it with a transformer like Sowter (Landadl works too, maybe even better)
Chatted briefly with the shop, the V2 kit works by using the original DAC so there is no way to avoid the AX10 DSP. The AX10 has a very sophisticated buffered output so this was reused, I think this means we're not doing reclocking. The AX-10 was a very complicated design so there were considerable groping around ... esp the signals were not i2c, left right channels are separate so we have to desolder something on the PCB to accommodate this.
If I remember right from others at this forum the problem here (and in many japanese units) was the DAC output stage uses too many Opamps (like 10 pairs of sth) for its own good so some get good results by replacing it with a transformer like Sowter (Landadl works too, maybe even better)
modder said:
DSPs
Not being able to avoid the AX10 DSP is most probably a good thing!
So your circuit goes like this ?
1. disk --> DSP (de-jitter and noise shaping) --> Kit2 --> 96Khz PCM(how many bits here Charly ?) --> AX10 buffered out (probably a re-clock) ---> outboard DAC
Do you go to a preamp after the DAC or straight into an amp ?
thanks
Not being able to avoid the AX10 DSP is most probably a good thing!
So your circuit goes like this ?
1. disk --> DSP (de-jitter and noise shaping) --> Kit2 --> 96Khz PCM(how many bits here Charly ?) --> AX10 buffered out (probably a re-clock) ---> outboard DAC
Do you go to a preamp after the DAC or straight into an amp ?
thanks
initial comparison of CDP/SACDP
Finally spent a few nites going back and forth between my CDP with DAC inputs (Burmester 061) and the Pioneer AX-10 with the unlimited SACD/DVD-A digital out.. it is set to 96Kbps fixed and I am not using upsampling on the 061 for the comparisons so far.
I uses hybrid SACD for comparison as CD to CD there is not comparison between the Pioneer and Burmester. However, only on 1 SACD disc I think I hear a clearer, more extended top end (channel classics), and most of the time the CDP delivers more drama than the corresponding SACD tracks (listed on bottom). Typically the Pioneer playing SACD seems more smoothed out with less clear definition and muddling of details.
1. Any friends have advice on perhaps better SACD discs to try ? Maybe my discs were biased
2. Maybe I should try other settings on the board, e.g. bitrate output etc ?
Any other ideas ? I know the drive in the CDP is better but never expected the SACD tracks can be less than the regular CD tracks. I'm stunned
some discs I used :
dark side of the moon (EMI)
Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto (pentatone classics)
intro to SACD (david chesky)
Super Artistis on Super Audio (channel classics)
Finally spent a few nites going back and forth between my CDP with DAC inputs (Burmester 061) and the Pioneer AX-10 with the unlimited SACD/DVD-A digital out.. it is set to 96Kbps fixed and I am not using upsampling on the 061 for the comparisons so far.
I uses hybrid SACD for comparison as CD to CD there is not comparison between the Pioneer and Burmester. However, only on 1 SACD disc I think I hear a clearer, more extended top end (channel classics), and most of the time the CDP delivers more drama than the corresponding SACD tracks (listed on bottom). Typically the Pioneer playing SACD seems more smoothed out with less clear definition and muddling of details.
1. Any friends have advice on perhaps better SACD discs to try ? Maybe my discs were biased
2. Maybe I should try other settings on the board, e.g. bitrate output etc ?
Any other ideas ? I know the drive in the CDP is better but never expected the SACD tracks can be less than the regular CD tracks. I'm stunned
some discs I used :
dark side of the moon (EMI)
Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto (pentatone classics)
intro to SACD (david chesky)
Super Artistis on Super Audio (channel classics)
My config is
Pioneer AX-10 => Burmester 061 => Passlabs 2.2 preamp => Passlabs Aleph 2 monoblocks => Jaz speakers (accuton ceramic woofer + alumin alloy tweeter)
>>>So your circuit goes like this ?
1. disk --> DSP (de-jitter and noise shaping) --> Kit2 --> 96Khz PCM(how many bits here Charly ?) --> AX10 buffered out (probably a re-clock) ---> outboard DAC
Do you go to a preamp after the DAC or straight into an amp ?
thanks
Pioneer AX-10 => Burmester 061 => Passlabs 2.2 preamp => Passlabs Aleph 2 monoblocks => Jaz speakers (accuton ceramic woofer + alumin alloy tweeter)
>>>So your circuit goes like this ?
1. disk --> DSP (de-jitter and noise shaping) --> Kit2 --> 96Khz PCM(how many bits here Charly ?) --> AX10 buffered out (probably a re-clock) ---> outboard DAC
Do you go to a preamp after the DAC or straight into an amp ?
thanks
pyro2006,
I am no expert on these matters, but you might find this article very interesting:
Digital System Wars
More Evidence on Sony DSD/SACD
http://www.iar-80.com/page17.html
This article continues for a few pages, but for you I suspect it is worth making the effort to read.
Again, I am no expert in such matters and I have no idea if Sony or any other authority has ever responded to these criticisms. If anyone knows of a good refutation, I would be grateful for a "heads-up"--
Best regards,
Chris
I am no expert on these matters, but you might find this article very interesting:
Digital System Wars
More Evidence on Sony DSD/SACD
http://www.iar-80.com/page17.html
This article continues for a few pages, but for you I suspect it is worth making the effort to read.
Again, I am no expert in such matters and I have no idea if Sony or any other authority has ever responded to these criticisms. If anyone knows of a good refutation, I would be grateful for a "heads-up"--
Best regards,
Chris
hi pyro
I think you may be experiencing the same as me ?! ..... very interesting.
I've found a Meridian G91 can give a better sound from the CD layer than the SACD layer on another player. The SACD layer is coming from a Pioneer 575A/kit2. The more complex the sound the more muddled it sounds.
eg.
Dire Straits CDs sound very much the same from either player. But a Mahler symphony (San Francisco Symphony) CD layer sounds much better on the G91. Interestingly the G91 sound can be further improved with a G68/G61 controller.
So what SACD players out there give a big improvement over the CD layer playing in a top player like the Meridian series ?
Th Pioneer SACD/PCM digital out feeds into the G91 at 96KHz (what's the bit rate here, anyone ?)
I think you may be experiencing the same as me ?! ..... very interesting.
I've found a Meridian G91 can give a better sound from the CD layer than the SACD layer on another player. The SACD layer is coming from a Pioneer 575A/kit2. The more complex the sound the more muddled it sounds.
eg.
Dire Straits CDs sound very much the same from either player. But a Mahler symphony (San Francisco Symphony) CD layer sounds much better on the G91. Interestingly the G91 sound can be further improved with a G68/G61 controller.
So what SACD players out there give a big improvement over the CD layer playing in a top player like the Meridian series ?
Th Pioneer SACD/PCM digital out feeds into the G91 at 96KHz (what's the bit rate here, anyone ?)
SACD article
- interesting article. Maybe we ARE hearing unavoidable distortion in a SACD signal above 8KHz.
I have read that converting SACD to PCM is good (eg. Esoteric players) because it gets rid of supersonic noise that is inherent in the SACD signal.
DVD-Audio, stereo 24/96, is just sterile no matter how and in what it's played in. I couldn't agree more with Noel Keywood of HiFi World magazine.
Chesky 24/96 PCM are very good but nothing special compared to vinyl.
Digital recordings also give a smaller sound stage and considerably less exciting sound compared to vinyl. Very disappointing.
- interesting article. Maybe we ARE hearing unavoidable distortion in a SACD signal above 8KHz.
I have read that converting SACD to PCM is good (eg. Esoteric players) because it gets rid of supersonic noise that is inherent in the SACD signal.
DVD-Audio, stereo 24/96, is just sterile no matter how and in what it's played in. I couldn't agree more with Noel Keywood of HiFi World magazine.
Chesky 24/96 PCM are very good but nothing special compared to vinyl.
Digital recordings also give a smaller sound stage and considerably less exciting sound compared to vinyl. Very disappointing.
I also love vinyl but
1) I live in a human zoo (seven kids) and
2) All my favorite music is coming out on CD, so
I have decided to "pass" on vinyl at least until my youngest kids grow older. (Grandchildren may ruin even those plans, however.)
My main goal in my audio life is to get all that I can out of Redbook CD, and if I can do that with a multi-disc player that handles SACD and DVD too, so much the better . . .
Maybe in a few years the Internet will let us use better approaches to digital -- approaches that were already available when Redbook CD was adopted, but were for various reasons passed over . . . including approaches that are not only higher fidelity but also more compact. (I'm thinking of approaches to digitization that were developed by the Swedish military for their radar tracking systems.)
The biggest hurdle, of course, is always going to be getting recording artists to support any new medium. If Google was smart they would encourage recording artists to cut out the middle man and go directly to the end users. Unfortunately most music being made today is junk and the listeners are more than happy with lossy compression . . . .
In the meantime, I'm grateful for mods like the ones being discussed in these threads . . . they are real solutions for now, rather than wishful "pie in the sky."
1) I live in a human zoo (seven kids) and
2) All my favorite music is coming out on CD, so
I have decided to "pass" on vinyl at least until my youngest kids grow older. (Grandchildren may ruin even those plans, however.)
My main goal in my audio life is to get all that I can out of Redbook CD, and if I can do that with a multi-disc player that handles SACD and DVD too, so much the better . . .
Maybe in a few years the Internet will let us use better approaches to digital -- approaches that were already available when Redbook CD was adopted, but were for various reasons passed over . . . including approaches that are not only higher fidelity but also more compact. (I'm thinking of approaches to digitization that were developed by the Swedish military for their radar tracking systems.)
The biggest hurdle, of course, is always going to be getting recording artists to support any new medium. If Google was smart they would encourage recording artists to cut out the middle man and go directly to the end users. Unfortunately most music being made today is junk and the listeners are more than happy with lossy compression . . . .
In the meantime, I'm grateful for mods like the ones being discussed in these threads . . . they are real solutions for now, rather than wishful "pie in the sky."
real SACD players
I am not questioning some SACD player can deliver more, but one typically has to pay a lot for it, and when you do, you cannot choose whatever discs you want to buy as choices are limited
DSD to PCM is not necessarily a problem, Esoteric X01 does SACD better than CD, but not drastically (see below). Even the latest X01D2 with direct DSD is not unianimously agreed to be better in all aspects, and if so <5 %
Comments from my friend who owns a Esoteric X01 Limited for the last year: the SACD tracks are typically more transparent and airy on the top end. It doesn't seem to mirror the 8000 Hz prediction from the article. If we're talking about bass here, I can say my Teac X-30 VRDS (redbook) has slightly better bass (and attack sounds) than the Burmester 061 in definition, which is in turn consistently better than what I hear from the Pioneer. I think the below 8000 Hz idea is academic / theoretical
But maybe the card doesn't work well for my AX-10 for special reasons, (a) It does not have a true I2S output stream, we have to deal with separate left and right channel data (b) we reused the buffered output stage of the original player ... we have to desolder some jumpers on the board to make it work. I'll talk to my shop and nail down all the architecture and technical coveats .. maybe I have to redo something or a different kit
I am not questioning some SACD player can deliver more, but one typically has to pay a lot for it, and when you do, you cannot choose whatever discs you want to buy as choices are limited
DSD to PCM is not necessarily a problem, Esoteric X01 does SACD better than CD, but not drastically (see below). Even the latest X01D2 with direct DSD is not unianimously agreed to be better in all aspects, and if so <5 %
Comments from my friend who owns a Esoteric X01 Limited for the last year: the SACD tracks are typically more transparent and airy on the top end. It doesn't seem to mirror the 8000 Hz prediction from the article. If we're talking about bass here, I can say my Teac X-30 VRDS (redbook) has slightly better bass (and attack sounds) than the Burmester 061 in definition, which is in turn consistently better than what I hear from the Pioneer. I think the below 8000 Hz idea is academic / theoretical
But maybe the card doesn't work well for my AX-10 for special reasons, (a) It does not have a true I2S output stream, we have to deal with separate left and right channel data (b) we reused the buffered output stage of the original player ... we have to desolder some jumpers on the board to make it work. I'll talk to my shop and nail down all the architecture and technical coveats .. maybe I have to redo something or a different kit
SACD sound
This is the problem I am trying to solve - move on from CD; SACD and DVD-Audio are theoretically better because more information is recorded - or is it ? I have heard of so-called 24 bit recordings that actually contain 18 bits.
New SACD recordings, CD-Layer, sound great. How much better can SACD be, and what player(s) are capable of producing that quality ?
I have considered buying an Esoteric/Wadia SACD player but am still not sure of what sound I will be getting. I have listened to a couple of Marantz SACD players but the sound was inferior to a Meridian CD player!
Re AX10 and other players - is the problem in how, and in what, the disk is spun ?
Or is it the quality of the laser or laser electronics that lets the player down ?
I have a digital SACD output, SPDIF out re-clocked, from kit2 into a Meridian G91. The Meridian does its DAC thing and the sound is not superior to playing the CD layer in the Meridian!
I wish I knew exactly why.
This is the problem I am trying to solve - move on from CD; SACD and DVD-Audio are theoretically better because more information is recorded - or is it ? I have heard of so-called 24 bit recordings that actually contain 18 bits.
New SACD recordings, CD-Layer, sound great. How much better can SACD be, and what player(s) are capable of producing that quality ?
I have considered buying an Esoteric/Wadia SACD player but am still not sure of what sound I will be getting. I have listened to a couple of Marantz SACD players but the sound was inferior to a Meridian CD player!
Re AX10 and other players - is the problem in how, and in what, the disk is spun ?
Or is it the quality of the laser or laser electronics that lets the player down ?
I have a digital SACD output, SPDIF out re-clocked, from kit2 into a Meridian G91. The Meridian does its DAC thing and the sound is not superior to playing the CD layer in the Meridian!
I wish I knew exactly why.
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