rfbrw said:
which are useless without understanding the principles of digital filtering and filter design.
I have a samsung that uses a dsd1608 dac with separate inputs for both dsd and pcm. So, obviously I cant output dsd with your board. However, is there any reason I cant use it for dvd, dvd-a and cd on this player- or any other? Just take the pcm, right?
I think it would be just as well if I stuck a low pass filter on the dsd stream and only sent the pcm data out through the transmitter. Filters are a whole science of ther own as far as I am concerned- higher oreder ones at least. Everything that I have read points to the filter as being the real bottleneck in DA conversion.
Is this circuit really overkill, then? I only need the multiplexer if the mclk changes between formats. Otherwise the DIT mentioned on the third or fourth page should work.
Believe me, I want to try this board it really has some nice options and is obviously top notch work. I have wanted three digital outs since I first heard that MSB was doing this option on their decoders. But, I am trying to make an informed choice about something I don't know much about.
Is this circuit really overkill, then? I only need the multiplexer if the mclk changes between formats. Otherwise the DIT mentioned on the third or fourth page should work.
Believe me, I want to try this board it really has some nice options and is obviously top notch work. I have wanted three digital outs since I first heard that MSB was doing this option on their decoders. But, I am trying to make an informed choice about something I don't know much about.
poolorpond, you are right!
If you did not want to get DSD out in PCM format you could use the board for CD and DVD-A (96,192) to get the unrestricted PCM data. With your player you have to use the extened kit with 96kHz output because I guess the clock generated by your player may not fit the standard board.
If sou tell me what DAC is used I may say more
Charly
V2 kit
I got the V2 kit working yesterday - and listened to several SACDs and DVD-Audio disks - extended kit with Tentlabs XO3. SPDIF re-clock not implemented yet.
A word about Tentlabs first. The WEB site could be better but the prices are right, the technology is amazing, and the service is exemplary. I only wish I'd started buying from Tentlabs years ago. Ny loss .. sob! sob!
Anyway, KIT V2 - a stunning upgrade! I'm running the Pioneer into a Meridian G91 and also into my office system - Pioneer VSX-C100 integ amp and B&W bookshelf speakers. On first switch on in the office system the improvement in SACD was immediately obvious - lots of "air", smooth sound , more bass.
In the main system the astonishing thing was the improvement in DVD-Audio (stereo). For the first time ever I heard all the notes joined up! Very enjoyable sound. Bass is amazing. Pioneer will now be my DVD-Audio transport into the G91.
Is it as good as vinyl ? Nope. Vinyl still shows a much bigger deeper sound stage. But silver disk is getting close.
PROBLEM
On switch on Pioneer screen shows "NO ID NUM". I think this is the clocking to the main board getting corrupted. Maybe noise on power lines. I have another clock board 27MHz powered off a relay (feeding the main Pioneer board) and driven by a separate power supply so there are many, many wires! Thoughts please.
Re-clocking players is the big thing on $20,000 US players. We have much the same thing for 500 euros. Many thanks Charly, a wonderful achievement!
I got the V2 kit working yesterday - and listened to several SACDs and DVD-Audio disks - extended kit with Tentlabs XO3. SPDIF re-clock not implemented yet.
A word about Tentlabs first. The WEB site could be better but the prices are right, the technology is amazing, and the service is exemplary. I only wish I'd started buying from Tentlabs years ago. Ny loss .. sob! sob!
Anyway, KIT V2 - a stunning upgrade! I'm running the Pioneer into a Meridian G91 and also into my office system - Pioneer VSX-C100 integ amp and B&W bookshelf speakers. On first switch on in the office system the improvement in SACD was immediately obvious - lots of "air", smooth sound , more bass.
In the main system the astonishing thing was the improvement in DVD-Audio (stereo). For the first time ever I heard all the notes joined up! Very enjoyable sound. Bass is amazing. Pioneer will now be my DVD-Audio transport into the G91.
Is it as good as vinyl ? Nope. Vinyl still shows a much bigger deeper sound stage. But silver disk is getting close.
PROBLEM
On switch on Pioneer screen shows "NO ID NUM". I think this is the clocking to the main board getting corrupted. Maybe noise on power lines. I have another clock board 27MHz powered off a relay (feeding the main Pioneer board) and driven by a separate power supply so there are many, many wires! Thoughts please.
Re-clocking players is the big thing on $20,000 US players. We have much the same thing for 500 euros. Many thanks Charly, a wonderful achievement!
Kit 2
Anyone installed this with XO3 ? If so, how/where can the XO3 board be fitted in the case ? Mine is jsut hanging out of the front of the case!
SPDIF reclocking with XO3 - exactly how is this done. I've tried but get no output - that is taking SPDIF from kit2 onboard SPDIF out to XO3, and then SPDIF out from XO3 to preamp.
NO ID NUM on player siwtch-on
This seems to be a widespread problem in Pioneer players. Just happened in my player (but main board had no clock temporarily). Requires a data disk and and a service remote (GGF1381) to fix. Player plays audio disks OK - just select a track off the remote etc.
Anyone installed this with XO3 ? If so, how/where can the XO3 board be fitted in the case ? Mine is jsut hanging out of the front of the case!
SPDIF reclocking with XO3 - exactly how is this done. I've tried but get no output - that is taking SPDIF from kit2 onboard SPDIF out to XO3, and then SPDIF out from XO3 to preamp.
NO ID NUM on player siwtch-on
This seems to be a widespread problem in Pioneer players. Just happened in my player (but main board had no clock temporarily). Requires a data disk and and a service remote (GGF1381) to fix. Player plays audio disks OK - just select a track off the remote etc.
Re: Re: heard the 989 last nite
I have the Pioneer running in with a 75R BNC digital connection. Playing by itself, this has got to be the easiest universal player to use. Just press play for all formats - no video connection needed. Mind you I have no interest in 5.1 stuff and surround sound at present.
Sound is very good indeed with SACDalmost appraoching my SCD777ES (modded). This is with the player properly supported. CD and 96k material played through the dCS972/954 combo at 24/176.4/192 sounds very goodas well.
This player is good value; has excellent HDMI video; and almost noiseless - you have to be close to detect the trasnport noise.
The player is open to upgrades. The coupling caps need changing to BGNs and the player may benefit from a new clock. As it is, 192 k material is downsamples to 96k, not good. unfortunately the Swiss mod is for 6 Channel digital and will require downmix in the player for stereo - not good. The Czech mod (John W's ??) requires hardware reprogramming at quite a cost and I am not interested.
If anyone knows of a mod to remove downsampling with raw DSD or SDIF2/3 output, please let me know.
fmak said:
I have the Pioneer running in with a 75R BNC digital connection. Playing by itself, this has got to be the easiest universal player to use. Just press play for all formats - no video connection needed. Mind you I have no interest in 5.1 stuff and surround sound at present.
Sound is very good indeed with SACDalmost appraoching my SCD777ES (modded). This is with the player properly supported. CD and 96k material played through the dCS972/954 combo at 24/176.4/192 sounds very goodas well.
This player is good value; has excellent HDMI video; and almost noiseless - you have to be close to detect the trasnport noise.
The player is open to upgrades. The coupling caps need changing to BGNs and the player may benefit from a new clock. As it is, 192 k material is downsamples to 96k, not good. unfortunately the Swiss mod is for 6 Channel digital and will require downmix in the player for stereo - not good. The Czech mod (John W's ??) requires hardware reprogramming at quite a cost and I am not interested.
If anyone knows of a mod to remove downsampling with raw DSD or SDIF2/3 output, please let me know.
XO3 reclock and jitter
The XO3 SPDIF reclock is very worthwhile (timbre of instruments improves). The XO3 board can be blu-tacked on top of the connector.
In my player the XO3 SPDIF input required a 1k resistor to fix the timing. (the digital signal refused to lock without the resistor).
To re-route SPDIF from kit2 cut the third wire on the connector (the one that comes from the SPDIF socket at the back of the Pioneer, it goes to XO3 SPDIF in, and then XO3 SPDIF out is connected back to the third wire "out".
Jitter spoils the sound. I made a 1.5m interconnect from RG6 75 ohm coax. 1.5m is an ideal length if there are reflections in the cable. Sounds better/the same as an 80 euro Monster digital interconnect! When buying coax note that the braid can be copper or aluminium - aluminium cannot be soldered (unless very, very high temp!). (For aluminium just wrap the braid around a copper stub soldered into the plug connector).
CD Blacklight is a great gadget for reducing jitter. It is "charged" via light and glows green. It is placed on the back of the CD. Seems to work.
One way the Meridian G91 reduces jitter is by re-reading the disk. The Pioneer does not do that - so this reading of the disk is the remaining major source of jitter. How to reduce this ? CD Blacklight is one good solution. Another requires a 'scope and the service manual to check if all the tray parameters are at their optimum. Or could some component be changed ?
Is the modded Pioneer as good as the G91 ? No, but it's very, very close.
The XO3 SPDIF reclock is very worthwhile (timbre of instruments improves). The XO3 board can be blu-tacked on top of the connector.
In my player the XO3 SPDIF input required a 1k resistor to fix the timing. (the digital signal refused to lock without the resistor).
To re-route SPDIF from kit2 cut the third wire on the connector (the one that comes from the SPDIF socket at the back of the Pioneer, it goes to XO3 SPDIF in, and then XO3 SPDIF out is connected back to the third wire "out".
Jitter spoils the sound. I made a 1.5m interconnect from RG6 75 ohm coax. 1.5m is an ideal length if there are reflections in the cable. Sounds better/the same as an 80 euro Monster digital interconnect! When buying coax note that the braid can be copper or aluminium - aluminium cannot be soldered (unless very, very high temp!). (For aluminium just wrap the braid around a copper stub soldered into the plug connector).
CD Blacklight is a great gadget for reducing jitter. It is "charged" via light and glows green. It is placed on the back of the CD. Seems to work.
One way the Meridian G91 reduces jitter is by re-reading the disk. The Pioneer does not do that - so this reading of the disk is the remaining major source of jitter. How to reduce this ? CD Blacklight is one good solution. Another requires a 'scope and the service manual to check if all the tray parameters are at their optimum. Or could some component be changed ?
Is the modded Pioneer as good as the G91 ? No, but it's very, very close.
Re: More Information
Charly
I installed the V1 kit you sent htis morning; only want staright 192k pcm and 88.2 DSD conversion. Will relock with my dCS Purcell at the output.
The pictures in the installation guide do not have resolution for me to be 100% sure of solder locations.
Please confirm for DV575A
Cable 3 Pads labelled R908 with no resistor
Cable 5 Between R836 and 501
Cable 7 Pad next to mark IC501
Cable 9 Pad between IC501 and R826
Cable 11 To R826
This may help other installers as well and you may consider posting this if correct, or tell me off!.
Thanks
Fred
oehlrich said:
Charly
I installed the V1 kit you sent htis morning; only want staright 192k pcm and 88.2 DSD conversion. Will relock with my dCS Purcell at the output.
The pictures in the installation guide do not have resolution for me to be 100% sure of solder locations.
Please confirm for DV575A
Cable 3 Pads labelled R908 with no resistor
Cable 5 Between R836 and 501
Cable 7 Pad next to mark IC501
Cable 9 Pad between IC501 and R826
Cable 11 To R826
This may help other installers as well and you may consider posting this if correct, or tell me off!.
Thanks
Fred
Re: Re: More Information
Fred, thank's for your question. The description you gave was correct!
Regarding the resolution of my photos. Start here http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/images-hires-kit/k_IMGP3000.html for the 575A. The photos you see could be magnified by just clicking them! I think this should be sufficient. Because of the limited bandwith of my webserver these hires photos are NOT included in the downloadable version.
Charly
fmak said:
Fred, thank's for your question. The description you gave was correct!
Regarding the resolution of my photos. Start here http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/images-hires-kit/k_IMGP3000.html for the 575A. The photos you see could be magnified by just clicking them! I think this should be sufficient. Because of the limited bandwith of my webserver these hires photos are NOT included in the downloadable version.
Charly
Re: Re: Re: More Information
Charly
It works, thanks. I am now playing direct at 192k into an RME ADI-2 dac, more open than 96k. I need to do some long term listening.
Really need an RME 192 DD but this is too expensive at present.
Fred
oehlrich said:
Charly
It works, thanks. I am now playing direct at 192k into an RME ADI-2 dac, more open than 96k. I need to do some long term listening.
Really need an RME 192 DD but this is too expensive at present.
Fred
Re: XO3 reclock and jitter
I have good experience with XO3 but I don't think it will cope with 176.4 or 192k signals. That is why Charly limits sample rate to 96k using asrc. I had a brief listen to 192k material thru this, and the result is more 'polite' than direct 192k connection. Can't drw conclusions just now.
Much more flexible in the longer term is to invest in an exteranl de-jitter box/processor. That is what I have done. Unfortunately my Purcell will only accept up to 96k and I really need an RME 192DD or similar.
modder said:
I have good experience with XO3 but I don't think it will cope with 176.4 or 192k signals. That is why Charly limits sample rate to 96k using asrc. I had a brief listen to 192k material thru this, and the result is more 'polite' than direct 192k connection. Can't drw conclusions just now.
Much more flexible in the longer term is to invest in an exteranl de-jitter box/processor. That is what I have done. Unfortunately my Purcell will only accept up to 96k and I really need an RME 192DD or similar.
Re: Re: More Information
I had a brief listen to SACD and 192k DVDA and made some measurements of the digital eye pattern.
First, the spdif direct output of the V1 board shows visible jitter, with 0.5V dc bias that syhould really be blocked. The output via the DVD player digital output actually looks better. I don't yet know why. May be Charly can comment.
The wave shape with both outputs looks good up to 96k. At 192k, jitter spread is very bad.
The AD1896 doesn't seem to do much for killing jitter when placed in circuit with the connector.
The whole thing really needs a good external jitter buster.
In contrast, the Pioneer DV989 has better digital wave shape and much less spread in the eye pattern.
It should be interesting to see how the Tent option in V2 performs to reduce jitter.
Fred
fmak said:
I had a brief listen to SACD and 192k DVDA and made some measurements of the digital eye pattern.
First, the spdif direct output of the V1 board shows visible jitter, with 0.5V dc bias that syhould really be blocked. The output via the DVD player digital output actually looks better. I don't yet know why. May be Charly can comment.
The wave shape with both outputs looks good up to 96k. At 192k, jitter spread is very bad.
The AD1896 doesn't seem to do much for killing jitter when placed in circuit with the connector.
The whole thing really needs a good external jitter buster.
In contrast, the Pioneer DV989 has better digital wave shape and much less spread in the eye pattern.
It should be interesting to see how the Tent option in V2 performs to reduce jitter.
Fred
Re: Re: XO3 reclock and jitter
If the Purcell will not accept 192k, what will you connect the 192DD to ?
fmak said:
If the Purcell will not accept 192k, what will you connect the 192DD to ?
Re: Re: Re: XO3 reclock and jitter
Purcell is upsampler/processor. I have 192k dacs.
rfbrw said:
Purcell is upsampler/processor. I have 192k dacs.
Re: Re: Re: More Information
I have done quite a bit of listening to the DV575 with Charly's board 'as is'; direct into an RMEADI-2 192k dac. The sound was not good. A lot of jitter in the eye pattern.
Then 96k material and SACD upsampled to 192k and 176.4 via Purcell. Sound is good and the output eye patternn from the Purcell good, with some ground bounce though.
Best sound is from DV575 into Assembaleg D2D jitter buster, then Purcell upsampling, then RME. Very respectable sound and 'calmer' than direct injection into the Purcell.
The CS8406 spdif sucks and sounds inferior. It is much better to cut the contact to the phono and solder lead out via 75R cable to a BNC socket. The Pioneer spdif out goes through a transistor amp and filtering/impedance matching which 'slows' the output waveform considerably without distorting it and looks much better than that thru' the 8406.
I have not explored more fully the ouput with asrc engaged. First impression was that it wasn't very good, without identifiable improvement in jitter. But will look at this later.
Adding e300 to fit an internal relocker with separate power supply etc doesn't seem an attractive option. I'd rather soend more (e1000) for an rme 192dd or equivalent. Likelyhood is that when you move on, you leave the thing in the Pioneer at a higher cost than the player itself.
I have 2 isssues with the Pioneer 575. It is noisy and the case needs damping. It slao switches off without allowing proper warm up and operation. The DV989 overcomes this
fmak said:
I have done quite a bit of listening to the DV575 with Charly's board 'as is'; direct into an RMEADI-2 192k dac. The sound was not good. A lot of jitter in the eye pattern.
Then 96k material and SACD upsampled to 192k and 176.4 via Purcell. Sound is good and the output eye patternn from the Purcell good, with some ground bounce though.
Best sound is from DV575 into Assembaleg D2D jitter buster, then Purcell upsampling, then RME. Very respectable sound and 'calmer' than direct injection into the Purcell.
The CS8406 spdif sucks and sounds inferior. It is much better to cut the contact to the phono and solder lead out via 75R cable to a BNC socket. The Pioneer spdif out goes through a transistor amp and filtering/impedance matching which 'slows' the output waveform considerably without distorting it and looks much better than that thru' the 8406.
I have not explored more fully the ouput with asrc engaged. First impression was that it wasn't very good, without identifiable improvement in jitter. But will look at this later.
Adding e300 to fit an internal relocker with separate power supply etc doesn't seem an attractive option. I'd rather soend more (e1000) for an rme 192dd or equivalent. Likelyhood is that when you move on, you leave the thing in the Pioneer at a higher cost than the player itself.
I have 2 isssues with the Pioneer 575. It is noisy and the case needs damping. It slao switches off without allowing proper warm up and operation. The DV989 overcomes this
Jitter
Using the V1 Kit the clock signal output via S/PDIF was taken from the Pioneer electronic 1:1. This is the reason for the jitter you measure. Inside the Pioneer the audio clock is generated via PLL from a 27MHz chrystal leading to Pioneers jitter.
Using the direct S/PDIF output of the Kit the signal from the 8406 runs over a voltage divider leading to a DC offset of half the signal. Therefore I did not recommend using this output. It may be for freaks connecting a transformer or anything else. Ommitting the resistors near the output you get a signal fom 0V to 5V with a DC offset of 2.5V.
As you wrote the signal at the S/PDIF output of the player was amplified by a transistor and adjusted to the 75Ohm wire. Thererfore here the signal is much better and I strongly recommend connecting here.
The audible result ist strongly dependant of the DAC you use. Using a reclocking DAC like Benchmark's DAC-1 the output quality of the signal is good enough and needs no improvement. Using a DAC which generates its playback master clock from the S/PDIF signal like the RME the low quality of the Pioneer clock leads to an increased jitter at the DAC and reduces audible quality.
The ASRC (AD1896) inside the V1 Kit only downsaples the Pioneer signal by 2:1 reducing 192kHz to 96kHz. With the V1 Kit no jitter adjustment was done by the ASRC!!
Therefore I developed the V2-Kit. It downsaples to 96kHz using a low jitter reference from Tentlabs. Therefore in the V2-Kit using the Tentlabs option Jitter was greatly reduced leading to a much improved result with DACs generating their masterclock out of the S/PDIF signal. This improvement was achieved only in Extended Kit's operation mode 'Constant' instaling the Tentlabs clock generator!
What I am curious about is that the Purcell has problems with the signal. As far as I understood the business of the Purcell is to upsample. Therefore I would have expected that it would reclock its input before upsampling (like Big Ben did) and after reclocking there should be no more problem with jitter??
Charly
Fred, I will comment.fmak said:
Using the V1 Kit the clock signal output via S/PDIF was taken from the Pioneer electronic 1:1. This is the reason for the jitter you measure. Inside the Pioneer the audio clock is generated via PLL from a 27MHz chrystal leading to Pioneers jitter.
Using the direct S/PDIF output of the Kit the signal from the 8406 runs over a voltage divider leading to a DC offset of half the signal. Therefore I did not recommend using this output. It may be for freaks connecting a transformer or anything else. Ommitting the resistors near the output you get a signal fom 0V to 5V with a DC offset of 2.5V.
As you wrote the signal at the S/PDIF output of the player was amplified by a transistor and adjusted to the 75Ohm wire. Thererfore here the signal is much better and I strongly recommend connecting here.
The audible result ist strongly dependant of the DAC you use. Using a reclocking DAC like Benchmark's DAC-1 the output quality of the signal is good enough and needs no improvement. Using a DAC which generates its playback master clock from the S/PDIF signal like the RME the low quality of the Pioneer clock leads to an increased jitter at the DAC and reduces audible quality.
The ASRC (AD1896) inside the V1 Kit only downsaples the Pioneer signal by 2:1 reducing 192kHz to 96kHz. With the V1 Kit no jitter adjustment was done by the ASRC!!
Therefore I developed the V2-Kit. It downsaples to 96kHz using a low jitter reference from Tentlabs. Therefore in the V2-Kit using the Tentlabs option Jitter was greatly reduced leading to a much improved result with DACs generating their masterclock out of the S/PDIF signal. This improvement was achieved only in Extended Kit's operation mode 'Constant' instaling the Tentlabs clock generator!
What I am curious about is that the Purcell has problems with the signal. As far as I understood the business of the Purcell is to upsample. Therefore I would have expected that it would reclock its input before upsampling (like Big Ben did) and after reclocking there should be no more problem with jitter??
Charly
Re: Jitter
Charly
You have accurately confirmed what I have found.
The Purcell does relock and does improve sound frgreatly. Using the eye pattern, there is no visible difference bewteen Pioneer connected to Purcell and Pioneer to Assemblage D2D to Purcell. However, there is a subtle difference to the sound.
Relocking does introduce some ground bounce to the signal but I don't know what effect this has on sound.
You have developed a great kit.
Fred
oehlrich said:
Charly
You have accurately confirmed what I have found.
The Purcell does relock and does improve sound frgreatly. Using the eye pattern, there is no visible difference bewteen Pioneer connected to Purcell and Pioneer to Assemblage D2D to Purcell. However, there is a subtle difference to the sound.
Relocking does introduce some ground bounce to the signal but I don't know what effect this has on sound.
You have developed a great kit.
Fred
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