Originally Posted by dahlenmarcus View Post
Good morning digitalthor
A recap is probably a Good thing at this point
The system that i used till recently i bought in a store and i was actually starting to get annoyed with it.
To much vocal sound and a subwoofer that was impossible to callibrate.
Calibration of a subwoofer, should be possible with a simple DSP for the subwoofer alone.
-The dali sub was just to loud or to low and made terrible bass in the bedroom (its conncted to the livingroom so i can just tell google to start the systems and play music first thing in the morning) even if i was placing it in the middle of the room
Impossibe and wet and sticky sounding
My reference sound is a SVS speaker called prime tower. It's the best sounding complete speaker that i heard.
The SVS speaker are designed with a 4,5" midrange and a crossover at 2,1kHz:
SVS Prime Tower Speaker Reviewed
You can see how the frequency response is pretty smooth around the crossover and that they cross low to get a bette polar response - why he mentions the Revel speakers too.... that usualy also has a smooth and even FR.
Which is why I truly dont understand all the talk about crossing over at 3500 - 4500Hz
-Cool
The prime tower is a very nice speaker
a ver laidback sound but no lack of detail that bothtered
The Atm wont allow me to cross so low, maybe i can try to eq it to see if will feel smoother
I understand it depends on which drivers thats in the system but it can be changed any time. I can also save different profiles on the dbx.
very helpful when comparing setups
I dare to say my system sound at least as good as the prime towers now
-
I dont know if i would call this a PA system
Fair enough... but it seemed like alot bigger speakers than the Dali and the SVS
-Yes little bit bigger=)
Yes i have all the hardware, exept for the analyzing tools.
And midrange driver
Getting the analyzing tools up and running, will really give you some perspective on how things work and how you will have a much better idea about why something sound like it does
-Now i tried with an oscliiscope app but i dont get this right, also i used a very cheap mic.
Need to look much deeper into this!
Yes 30sqm
Then you might have reflective surfaces close by.... making a speaker with an even polar response, and maybe a waveguided tweeter - a better choice.
-Moved the speakers very far from the walls, also i have an accoustic breaker made of matresses behind the couch that i sit in.
Defenetly helps
I learned so much from this discussion already.
And i think using an active system allowed me to learn even more just by trying different settings.
I definitely missed out some basics.
Yes - you will gain so much more, when you start measuring your constructions and choice of filters and EQ.
-I am so much looking forward to get the measuring in order, really want to analyze
I do like and elevated Tweeter but i am very sensitive to shouty sound
I mostly find "shouty sound" to be problems with the upper midrange and crossover betwen the midrange and tweeter.
- Yes i think i took it down a bit at 700 hz and it helped
Very Good points, the Dali speakers sound pretty good when i i plug them in to the Active system but not so much before that. Too much midrange i believe
You could try to EQ the Dali's to gain experinece about what part op the sound that makes you dislike or like it
- Yes i did and i think thats how this project started=)
An argument was also not to crossover in the voice Spectre.
What do you think?
The SVS speaker are designed with a 4,5" midrange and a crossover at 2,1kHz:
SVS Prime Tower Speaker Reviewed
You can see how the frequency response is pretty smooth around the crossover and that they cross low to get a bette polar response - why he mentions the Revel speakers too.... that usualy also has a smooth and even FR.
Which is why I truly dont understand all the talk about crossing over at 3500 - 4500Hz
What do you think?
The SVS speaker are designed with a 4,5" midrange and a crossover at 2,1kHz:
SVS Prime Tower Speaker Reviewed
You can see how the frequency response is pretty smooth around the crossover and that they cross low to get a bette polar response - why he mentions the Revel speakers too.... that usualy also has a smooth and even FR.
Which is why I truly dont understand all the talk about crossing over at 3500 - 4500Hz
That's even lower than standard for a 2 way 6,5" build
Maybe the info is wrong or they have found a golden symbios with the drivers.
Have you consider SVS midrange driver for your system?
Maybe the info is wrong or they have found a golden symbios with the drivers.
Have you consider SVS midrange driver for your system?
Very interesting indeed
I think the dome seem to have a very interesting frequency response
is there any chance that some of this kind of information for the flexx units is also available?
I should check that One out, the Crossover frequency at 2.1 might be Hard to match even if it's absolutely possible with the amt
You have flexunits and nac and cac series from SB acoustic with these low Le, the aluminium an cac should be a little notched on their break-ups max spl raise not to waste the clean job of the tweeters. The Faital 12PR350 has a low Le and big Sd and is smooth : XO more a challenge due to the 12" size (trade off) : imho a polypro doped à la Audiotechnology goes higher in smoothness and details surely... (look what ScottG said at the beginning)
The Viawave SRT-7 and the polish shop were seen from the excellent work made here : Обзор ленточного твитера Viawave SRT-7 | HiFiCompass - всё для акустических систем и не только - 98 db sensivity but you are active so not big resistor for you
Głośnik Viawave Audio GRT-145 - Wstęgowy SRT - 4 ohm
I don't know for the shipping price.
The Viawave SRT-7 and the polish shop were seen from the excellent work made here : Обзор ленточного твитера Viawave SRT-7 | HiFiCompass - всё для акустических систем и не только - 98 db sensivity but you are active so not big resistor for you
Głośnik Viawave Audio GRT-145 - Wstęgowy SRT - 4 ohm
I don't know for the shipping price.
Since you advice me to check waveguides out.
I suppose you mean instead of the amt,
Doesnt the amt have very limited dispersion also?
Since i have moved speakers from the walls i have amuch more clean and isolated sound that i like very much.
also the 15-inch driver would have a limited didperation IF crossed higher.
Maybe we should not be so afraid of this then?
It's only me in this house and i only sit in One place anyway
Thank you for the new ideas of drivers with low LE, i will check them out right now
I suppose you mean instead of the amt,
Doesnt the amt have very limited dispersion also?
Since i have moved speakers from the walls i have amuch more clean and isolated sound that i like very much.
also the 15-inch driver would have a limited didperation IF crossed higher.
Maybe we should not be so afraid of this then?
It's only me in this house and i only sit in One place anyway
Thank you for the new ideas of drivers with low LE, i will check them out right now
few stock or none everywhere : made on demand with catalog spec or your choices as for illustration voice coil material, T&S parameters, Read the good pages from Troels Gravsen about Audiotechnology drivers.
For sure a 8" and a 4" or 5" and a good tweeters (there are many those days : ribbons, Be dome, soft dome, ceramic domes at every prices. Be is certainy a good mix between silk softness and ceramic details without big peaks below 30 K hz that could back pollute the audio band according what the ears and material can get/catch...
Your AMT above an Audiotechnology above 3k to 3.5 khz could certainly be good if the off axis match between drivers... according the slope and XO you will choose. A Viawave ribbon is the same price the matched pair in Poland or a little more expensive at Audiophonics. certainly a good match too!
As you're active, it's easy to play, however I surmise the electronics to be the weak chain with such sota, expensive drivers. Cabinet is always a challenge -if it was not and if I was not on the slow ecological save the planet side, I will make a speaker evey three months like Troels Gravsen... without the talent of him
I will re shelves the Beyma AMT for a further high spl boom boom project (18" + 10" or 12" or 8" all PA + the TPL150 and will focus on the smooth side of your project by trying due to the specialists here to match the drivers together with their spec for the best soundstage- off course I am not - still in sow learning phase till 10 years - I just refurbish fro time to time, friends' loudspeakers or neighboors ones-
According the room a part of smoothness-soundstage-softness will come from the off axis choice I assume as the spl curve shape.
That's not meaning you can not sucess with the Beyma, but reading several threads here and elsewhere, the Beyma and amts generaly are hard to work with : try to fing threads by people like AngelloItacare and else that worked hardly to choose the mid between the Beyma and the bass unit...
You need something fast and smooth that marry the Beyma off axis, imho above 2k due to the Beyma and some waterfall shown on the net !
Fast means very low Le and flat frequencies for the XO if I understood well - It's certainly fast and a too big shortcut but if I'm wrong the knowledged gentlement with extended experience and not only theory will correct the input.
There are 6" drivers from the hifi range that are 0.1 to 0.2 uH on the datasheet that should match... of course the fact you have an amp per driver helps a lot and the driver will go fast enough to match the spl... You should have to look at the waterfalls as well : below 2 ms to try to match the AMT...
That's theory only, real world is more complicate and here I don't know but those few words I hope will help to focus on the good items with the help of others with real experience about construct and drivers choices - LineSources, ScottG, etc . Many valuable members you very should to read twice imho
Hope that helps... a little at least
In your shoes I will try ro retro engineere the Troels Gravsen Preleude to make it active
Not an advice but more a "you should also consider this as well" ; only a guy who heard both that Viawave and the Beyma AMT could really tell you. As you pointed out in the first post the midrange seems more a crucial and difficult choice and imho a good idea to start from... andtrebles are easier to fix and often less expensive to do.
a 15" but some specials with missile bullet instead dome cap or smooth one as the Faital 15PR400 should not be crossed above 600/700 in theory for off-axis and upper driver XO summing, but I surmise the good designer can play with that as well. I talked above of the 12" from Faital because high SD and good Le-related to the relative big Sd of the Beyma TPL and the tight delay waterfall of an AMT-. Notice than LineSources who knows for real advised a 8" from Faital... It's certainly enough for domestic use related to the spl and will be better off axis... you know that already .
In my simple point of view it's just a ribbon seems easier than a PA amt on the paper to work with for the sound produced. But some say than amt can be very "smooth" like the well made Mundorfs (expensive) and readings and private measurments show often the AMT are hard to build well by the factories and the cheap ones lack of the so hopped quality they are purchased for... One of the best tweeter subjectivly in the top line Magnepan are ribbons; ESL rocks too... Do we see often good reviewed branded loudspeaker ?? I ask myself so ! Well the said affordable Golden Ear Technology ?
But the Behringer amps you have seems logical paired with PA drivers
Coming back to the brand you like as reference : their speakers looks like using the Peereless HDS nomex or HDS polypro serie ??? Or at least close clone made by Peereless with home spec ?
I really surmise the 4" or 6" Audiotechnology -both low Le enough the lower the better IIRC- will please you and will go above EVS in every area, size being according the tweeter choice surely ! Never saw someone testimonied they don't liked the AUdiotechnologies... It certainly exists... but where ? In rhe ESL or Horns enthusiast that tried all already and chosed their trade offs ?!
Is the Prelude from Troels Gravsen is an Arbeth 40.2 on steroids for rich diyers but - what eyes read is not what ears listen to- ... or we will look for fastier what we are looking for, hey !
; only a guy who heard both that Viawave and the Beyma AMT could really tell you. As you pointed out in the first post the midrange seems more a crucial and difficult choice and imho a good idea to start from... andtrebles are easier to fix and often less expensive to do.a 15" but some specials with missile bullet instead dome cap or smooth one as the Faital 15PR400 should not be crossed above 600/700 in theory for off-axis and upper driver XO summing, but I surmise the good designer can play with that as well. I talked above of the 12" from Faital because high SD and good Le-related to the relative big Sd of the Beyma TPL and the tight delay waterfall of an AMT-. Notice than LineSources who knows for real advised a 8" from Faital... It's certainly enough for domestic use related to the spl and will be better off axis... you know that already .
In my simple point of view it's just a ribbon seems easier than a PA amt on the paper to work with for the sound produced. But some say than amt can be very "smooth" like the well made Mundorfs (expensive) and readings and private measurments show often the AMT are hard to build well by the factories and the cheap ones lack of the so hopped quality they are purchased for... One of the best tweeter subjectivly in the top line Magnepan are ribbons; ESL rocks too... Do we see often good reviewed branded loudspeaker ?? I ask myself so ! Well the said affordable Golden Ear Technology ?
But the Behringer amps you have seems logical paired with PA drivers
Coming back to the brand you like as reference : their speakers looks like using the Peereless HDS nomex or HDS polypro serie ??? Or at least close clone made by Peereless with home spec ?
I really surmise the 4" or 6" Audiotechnology -both low Le enough the lower the better IIRC- will please you and will go above EVS in every area, size being according the tweeter choice surely ! Never saw someone testimonied they don't liked the AUdiotechnologies... It certainly exists... but where ? In rhe ESL or Horns enthusiast
that tried all already and chosed their trade offs ?!Is the Prelude from Troels Gravsen is an Arbeth 40.2 on steroids for rich diyers
but - what eyes read is not what ears listen to- ... or we will look for fastier what we are looking for, hey !
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Yes - it is correct that if you can avoid crossing in the middle of where our ears are most senstive to most kinds of distortions and deviations - then it's a good idea.
But if you can do it nicely - then the benefits can outweigh the potential issues.
So of course you need to be careful with the tuning, EQ and filters and mix of drivers. But in a double blind test. It has been proven that when comparing the JBL M2 with the Revel Salon 2 - within reason - meaing considering max spl and other factors. Then people like them for some of the same reaons - a good polar response and even flat frequency response - not expensive drivers and many other fanzy exotic details. But mainly because they both carry the same basic sensible design - which covers what our ears likes the most.
The 18sound 6nd sure looks great
A very Good match to the rest of the equipment according to the Specs
Price is also fantastic
The flexunits 4" would have a better flexibility for crossover frequencies and i suppose it would very helpful when integrating with the other drivers
Reading and analyzing all input, just have to work a little bit in between ☺️
A very Good match to the rest of the equipment according to the Specs
Price is also fantastic
The flexunits 4" would have a better flexibility for crossover frequencies and i suppose it would very helpful when integrating with the other drivers
Reading and analyzing all input, just have to work a little bit in between ☺️
Hi, to really get the ultimate mid range driver you should buy two or more of the different candidates and listen and measure them. This is the only way you can choose which one is better than the other. Sell the rest after you've found the best (for given application). You might even end up changing your concept that doesn't even need a mid range driver, who knows!
Many speakers and many years of building and listening ahead if seeking the ultimate sound. Surely it would be the best fun I can think of, so Have fun!
Many speakers and many years of building and listening ahead if seeking the ultimate sound. Surely it would be the best fun I can think of, so Have fun!
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Yes
So the faital pro pr400 could be crossed up to 700?
I know there is many opinions and different parameters of couse
So the td15m is a litte bit similar
If that wuld be the case, i think a midrange dome had made a nice match
I think all items in the system can be replaces if something better is found at any time and it would be cool to try a dome
Baffle step could be controlled with EQ i guess but i also anderstand from you guys that it is more to it.
I did check out the midranges in SVS primetower.
I think for my use in an active system it should have a wider range of response.
Sure the AMTs might be hard to work with and pretty unnecessary but crossed high they are smooth and clear.
When crossed higher the visaton takes a part of the amts job and it becomes more soft.
Now Scott.G liked the visaton ti100 up to 1500 hz and i felt it was better above that because i thoght it sounded thin in the lower midrange.
So its very relative, subjective and of couse depending on what more drivers are involved.
The AEtd 15 did not arrive yet so it is hard to make a good comparison at this point
But i do know that i like the AMT,
compared to a dome that i tried and the B&Cde250 the consonants in the songs are at another level
Of course it could be replaced but for bow i will just cross it higher an try not to chang everything all the time and get lost=)
So the faital pro pr400 could be crossed up to 700?
I know there is many opinions and different parameters of couse
So the td15m is a litte bit similar
If that wuld be the case, i think a midrange dome had made a nice match
I think all items in the system can be replaces if something better is found at any time and it would be cool to try a dome
Baffle step could be controlled with EQ i guess but i also anderstand from you guys that it is more to it.
I did check out the midranges in SVS primetower.
I think for my use in an active system it should have a wider range of response.
Sure the AMTs might be hard to work with and pretty unnecessary but crossed high they are smooth and clear.
When crossed higher the visaton takes a part of the amts job and it becomes more soft.
Now Scott.G liked the visaton ti100 up to 1500 hz and i felt it was better above that because i thoght it sounded thin in the lower midrange.
So its very relative, subjective and of couse depending on what more drivers are involved.
The AEtd 15 did not arrive yet so it is hard to make a good comparison at this point
But i do know that i like the AMT,
compared to a dome that i tried and the B&Cde250 the consonants in the songs are at another level
Of course it could be replaced but for bow i will just cross it higher an try not to chang everything all the time and get lost=)
Not an advice but more a "you should also consider this as well"
a 15" but some specials with missile bullet instead dome cap or smooth one as the Faital 15PR400 should not be crossed above 600/700 in theory for off-axis and upper driver XO summing, but I surmise the good designer can play with that as well. I talked above of the 12" from Faital because high SD and good Le-related to the relative big Sd of the Beyma TPL and the tight delay waterfall of an AMT-. Notice than LineSources who knows for real advised a 8" from Faital... It's certainly enough for domestic use related to the spl and will be better off axis... you know that already .
In my simple point of view it's just a ribbon seems easier than a PA amt on the paper to work with for the sound produced. But some say than amt can be very "smooth" like the well made Mundorfs (expensive) and readings and private measurments show often the AMT are hard to build well by the factories and the cheap ones lack of the so hopped quality they are purchased for... One of the best tweeter subjectivly in the top line Magnepan are ribbons; ESL rocks too... Do we see often good reviewed branded loudspeaker ?? I ask myself so ! Well the said affordable Golden Ear Technology ?
But the Behringer amps you have seems logical paired with PA drivers
Coming back to the brand you like as reference : their speakers looks like using the Peereless HDS nomex or HDS polypro serie ??? Or at least close clone made by Peereless with home spec ?
I really surmise the 4" or 6" Audiotechnology -both low Le enough the lower the better IIRC- will please you and will go above EVS in every area, size being according the tweeter choice surely ! Never saw someone testimonied they don't liked the AUdiotechnologies... It certainly exists... but where ? In rhe ESL or Horns enthusiast
Is the Prelude from Troels Gravsen is an Arbeth 40.2 on steroids for rich diyers
That is how i see it also
I have lots of rooms to fill with systems=)
I know many people would say go passive but that would not have given tha possibillity to change to any driver at any time
Maybe next time passive
If not dipoles
I have lots of rooms to fill with systems=)
I know many people would say go passive but that would not have given tha possibillity to change to any driver at any time
Maybe next time passive
If not dipoles
Hi, to really get the ultimate mid range driver you should buy two or more of the different candidates and listen and measure them. This is the only way you can choose which one is better than the other. Sell the rest after you've found the best (for given application). You might even end up changing your concept that doesn't even need a mid range driver, who knows!
Many speakers and many years of building and listening ahead if seeking the ultimate sound. Surely it would be the best fun I can think of, so Have fun!
Hi, to really get the ultimate mid range driver you should buy two or more of the different candidates and listen and measure them. This is the only way you can choose which one is better than the other. Sell the rest after you've found the best (for given application). You might even end up changing your concept that doesn't even need a mid range driver, who knows!
Many speakers and many years of building and listening ahead if seeking the ultimate sound. Surely it would be the best fun I can think of, so Have fun!
... makes sense !@ D. : all these 15" drivers you're talking too are very good for hifi project, procure a chest experience none of the 6" or 8" in quantity enough to make the same Sd can procure as testimonied man people.
Yes these ones can go to 700 hz and above
ften a little harmless dip around 1k but the off axis suffer for a sota overlap around XO imho.You should not forgett in your project that the mid driver has two fire 2 octaves and it's way better at 3 octaves cause the low & high passes are far from each other.
The AMT will not suffer to be crossed higher than 2k hz for the global sounding quality of your project imho. You have it, use it, its clarity is certainly a good atch with the SVS you like that use a metal dome : the AMT is certainly better due to a cleaner waterfall and precision : just the "speed" and tone due of that is a challenge for the mid, hence all the posts from the contributors.
As said 125 hz (more or less beginning of voice but tenor and baryton- to 2000/4000 hz is great for the voice (I'm a fan of around 100 hz xo in my hoe speakers while as said in the beginning : FR here means low spl and more distorsion - cause low size mid but the soundstage is also better : trade offs !
You could certainly xo around 300 hz where there is often a dip in most cabinet room placment but you have to measure it in your room related to the waf and how react the room (can be something dips arond 250 to 400 hz according the room and speakers placment in the limit of the waf : no more than 1 meter from the front bafle before the spouse cry and sing the Travatia showing you the outside door or worse the window ! Here a 15" could be the good candidate with a 6" : SB Satori 300 to the AMT, The illuminator, the Audiotechnology and the very good Revelator according many - but the satori they are scalled by proce order. The audiotechnology being certainly the closer to the SVS but I surmise the Peerless HDS Nomex 6" for a low price and sound will be closer to the what you experienced in the SVS
... in the SVS two 6" are used for the bass but you can use the Peereless up t0 2k certainly to the AMT : you need simulations.I say 6" cause the too big size difference between two drivers is not advised too much : a 15" with a 4" or 5" : but experienced designers or help in the XO drawing... I have not that knowledge, many have it here though.
If Scott told you the Visaton, believe him, he adviced me for a tweeter that is cheap for a refurbishing of a friend loudspeaker and that was a very valuable advice (thanks again ScottG
) I was surprised by the cheap sb26STAC 1" tweeter dome unit considering the price and the friens could not be happier.cheers, hope that helps.... Seems clear to me that your mid should be a 3 or 4 octave wild to putt the AMT the higher you can for a non sound mismatch in the high mid & low treble tonality and also to be lower than 400 hz if you can but a good XO will be harmless if a 15" is crossed above... but what about the 2 or 3 octaves width of the mid then ????
Again all these rules apply more in theory, surely experienced designer know how to break them I surmise.
that could inspire you ! google translate is your friend : ribon + audiotechnology + peereless hds , serie filter in the tweeter & mids for the enthusiasts ... liquenz - audiyofield
About the Visaton:
Basically what I'm saying here is that you can achieve smoother sound that's almost as detailed as the Visaton with the very inexpensive Peerless TC9F when loaded in a larger volume bass-reflex (deep) *cabinet tuned to lower than 70 Hz (rear facing port) and with an appropriate high-pass filter around 300 Hz. Depth of field will be MUCH better than with the Visaton in a small over-stuffed box.
*no stuffing on interior walls of cabinet or near driver or port opening (in-cabinet).
I wouldn't call this an "ultimate" midrange result.. but absent a bit of detail -it won't be that far off IF it's done properly (..as previously mentioned with the AT and its box/port configuration).
Basically what I'm saying here is that you can achieve smoother sound that's almost as detailed as the Visaton with the very inexpensive Peerless TC9F when loaded in a larger volume bass-reflex (deep) *cabinet tuned to lower than 70 Hz (rear facing port) and with an appropriate high-pass filter around 300 Hz. Depth of field will be MUCH better than with the Visaton in a small over-stuffed box.
*no stuffing on interior walls of cabinet or near driver or port opening (in-cabinet).
I wouldn't call this an "ultimate" midrange result.. but absent a bit of detail -it won't be that far off IF it's done properly (..as previously mentioned with the AT and its box/port configuration).
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