gedlee said:
Seems to me you need a good USA sales rep. Will you target prosound shops or high end audio dealers? Maybe just ship yourself a carton, build a website and hire someone to run it and do the marketing..
gedlee said:
Looks like group buy will be the only way we can have our hand on your waveguard. I am too far down the other end of the world to organize it. Hope someone take this on.
Don't mind me asking a question. I though the purpose of moving production to Thailand is to cut down cost. You sounds like you are moving away from US market too.
Have fun 😀
I would target Asia and Europe first. This is the way most brands start out, and for a good reason.gedlee said:
I listened to a pair of Avantgarde Duo Omega just last week. Depending on the electronics, it sounded from quite well (not considering the price) to bad. We had a ASR luna 6 used as a pre and Audio Research 3 as the amp, it sounded terrible. When we took out the pre, it sounded quite well.
From the timing of running out of money, it seems quite a interesting. I don't know how long you have done business with your partner, but ... just think about it more. If the business can survive with 100 pairs a year, then probably there is a chance to make it.
If you have a demo pair to spare for a month, I can probably put it on audition in a store close to a science part. This store is a CD store that has an audio room. Very nice owner, easy going, just let's the customers do their thing at their own pace. A friend that just moved from HK to Austrila, very well known among the high price hi-fi members. If you think it might also worth a try, is to sent one pair of speakers on tour around the world. Whomever wishes to audit should pay for the shipping and packaging to the next destination. We can probably setup a thread about it's journey.
With the pricing strategy, it seems you too are market orientated, just in a different way!😀
The sales problem is really because there are too many things to spend money on these days. Personally, I had looked at speakers in this price range when I was much younger, and I decided to take flight lessons and ski trips, etc., and spend time and money to develop.
Up to now, with my limited experience, I have not come across any driver that does not need improvement. So I would really technically question driver performance if they are off-the shelf drivers.
Guess I'll throw in my .02
When most people come up with a business idea, they focus on the idea, then go looking for a market. Most of my business successes have been found when I looked for a market, then came up with a business.
Let's use a loudspeaker as an example.
In the prosound market, there are a lot of customers who are willing to spend $5000 for a speaker. The problem with these customers is that they could lose their jobs if they make a bad decision. Have you ever heard the phrase "no one gets fired for buying IBM?" The same thing applies to the prosound arena - no one gets fired for buying JBL. This is why their products command such a premium. For this reason, there aren't many mom & pop prosound companies. Churches could be a good candidate for prosound equipment from a small manufacturer. It's not like they're going to fire the pastor for not buying JBL. Danley Sound Labs has a lot of gear in houses of worship.
In the HiFi market, your customers are idiots. There is no nice way to put this. Your average consumer for HiFi gear is a rich idiot. If you've ever thought it takes a lot of brains to get rich, you've obviously never met a millionaire. If you want to succeed in HiFi, you need to make the loudspeaker equivalent of a fast boat. It needs to be loud, garish, and expensive. Keep in mind that half the reason guys buy expensive loudspeakers is to brag to their friends what they spent on it.
The last market is home theater. IMHO, this market has real potential. Most of the HiFi guys put their gear on display, so they can brag to their friends about their $10,000 speaker cables. But the home theater guys are different. They like to hide their gear, putting their speakers into the walls, and hiding all the AV equipment in a seperate room. So a home theater speaker doesn't have to be pretty.
When it comes to home theater, it's all about DYNAMICS. The HiFi dweebs love to obsess about pinpoint imaging, while the home theater guys love cranking the volume to eleven. The home theater guys would literally go DEAF if they had five Summas on tap.
Your average wife would flip out if she found out her husband spent $10000 on stereo speakers. Yet many wives would support their husbands if they wanted to spend $50000 on a custom home theater. Home theater is something the whole family can enjoy.
Last but not least, a lot of people justify the cost of home theater the way that you justify the cost of a pool, or an addition to the house. It's a different mindset.
The biggest drawback to the home theater market is the drop in property values and the credit crunch.
If you made it this far, let me relate a story about home theater. When I was in my 20s, I used to hang out at an audio store in Riverside California. The guys at this store were the sharpest around. Their car stereo department was unrivaled, their home audio section sold all the best gear, in fact they even sold their own speaker kits! You'd think these guys could do no wrong, they were absolutely the best in town. But do you know what paid the rent?
Custom home theaters.
Even though they were the BEST at everything, the profit margins and volume on home theater just blew everything else away.
Years later they closed down their store, and became a full time manufacturer of home theater gear. The name is the same:
www.speakercraft.com
When most people come up with a business idea, they focus on the idea, then go looking for a market. Most of my business successes have been found when I looked for a market, then came up with a business.
Let's use a loudspeaker as an example.
In the prosound market, there are a lot of customers who are willing to spend $5000 for a speaker. The problem with these customers is that they could lose their jobs if they make a bad decision. Have you ever heard the phrase "no one gets fired for buying IBM?" The same thing applies to the prosound arena - no one gets fired for buying JBL. This is why their products command such a premium. For this reason, there aren't many mom & pop prosound companies. Churches could be a good candidate for prosound equipment from a small manufacturer. It's not like they're going to fire the pastor for not buying JBL. Danley Sound Labs has a lot of gear in houses of worship.
In the HiFi market, your customers are idiots. There is no nice way to put this. Your average consumer for HiFi gear is a rich idiot. If you've ever thought it takes a lot of brains to get rich, you've obviously never met a millionaire. If you want to succeed in HiFi, you need to make the loudspeaker equivalent of a fast boat. It needs to be loud, garish, and expensive. Keep in mind that half the reason guys buy expensive loudspeakers is to brag to their friends what they spent on it.
The last market is home theater. IMHO, this market has real potential. Most of the HiFi guys put their gear on display, so they can brag to their friends about their $10,000 speaker cables. But the home theater guys are different. They like to hide their gear, putting their speakers into the walls, and hiding all the AV equipment in a seperate room. So a home theater speaker doesn't have to be pretty.
When it comes to home theater, it's all about DYNAMICS. The HiFi dweebs love to obsess about pinpoint imaging, while the home theater guys love cranking the volume to eleven. The home theater guys would literally go DEAF if they had five Summas on tap.
Your average wife would flip out if she found out her husband spent $10000 on stereo speakers. Yet many wives would support their husbands if they wanted to spend $50000 on a custom home theater. Home theater is something the whole family can enjoy.
Last but not least, a lot of people justify the cost of home theater the way that you justify the cost of a pool, or an addition to the house. It's a different mindset.
The biggest drawback to the home theater market is the drop in property values and the credit crunch.
If you made it this far, let me relate a story about home theater. When I was in my 20s, I used to hang out at an audio store in Riverside California. The guys at this store were the sharpest around. Their car stereo department was unrivaled, their home audio section sold all the best gear, in fact they even sold their own speaker kits! You'd think these guys could do no wrong, they were absolutely the best in town. But do you know what paid the rent?
Custom home theaters.
Even though they were the BEST at everything, the profit margins and volume on home theater just blew everything else away.
Years later they closed down their store, and became a full time manufacturer of home theater gear. The name is the same:
www.speakercraft.com
Thanks all - I wish it were as simple as it sounds and that investment money was as easy to come by as free advice.
There is virtually nothing said here that I didn't know, hadn't thought about or havn't tried. It's just not that easy (once again read Taleb if you haven't already).
Make it on 100 speakers a year? - no way - we were looking to do 100 a month to start and a 100 a week in a few years - and that was not enough to interest an investor. Loan out "free" demos - don't make much money that way! And everybody wants them.
Asia, then Europe!? - Asia is focused on brand and price and performance is not even a criteria. Europe is mostly brand and brand, but at least price is a little more flexible. Actually the US now appears to be the sweet spot in the marketplace. Huge market with above average intelligence (Pro market), less driven by brand, and price - they will pay if they can see the benefit. But its real expensive getting off the ground here.
As usual Patrick is right on with my thoughts, but I would add one thing. The home theater install market is very very "relationship" oriented. One would need years to develop the relationships with the "movers and shakers" to get your products used. That takes a lot of time and money - once you have the product production capability in hand. You can't even talk to people until you can ship lots and lots of product on demand.
One really has to look at the amount of time and investment it takes to get to square one. Sorry folks, but it ain't that easy.
There is virtually nothing said here that I didn't know, hadn't thought about or havn't tried. It's just not that easy (once again read Taleb if you haven't already).
Make it on 100 speakers a year? - no way - we were looking to do 100 a month to start and a 100 a week in a few years - and that was not enough to interest an investor. Loan out "free" demos - don't make much money that way! And everybody wants them.
Asia, then Europe!? - Asia is focused on brand and price and performance is not even a criteria. Europe is mostly brand and brand, but at least price is a little more flexible. Actually the US now appears to be the sweet spot in the marketplace. Huge market with above average intelligence (Pro market), less driven by brand, and price - they will pay if they can see the benefit. But its real expensive getting off the ground here.
As usual Patrick is right on with my thoughts, but I would add one thing. The home theater install market is very very "relationship" oriented. One would need years to develop the relationships with the "movers and shakers" to get your products used. That takes a lot of time and money - once you have the product production capability in hand. You can't even talk to people until you can ship lots and lots of product on demand.
One really has to look at the amount of time and investment it takes to get to square one. Sorry folks, but it ain't that easy.
I am a bit confused. Complain about a shrinking market, but plans for large shipments. There surely is something I'm missing.😕
If I recall correctly, Asia was the largest exotic systems market for a very long time. I get the impression it still is. At least most homes I've visited have speakers way above the price range you have listed. The issue is how to compete with so many brands. Certainly lots more than I've seen in LA, NYC, and DFW. While I was in the DFW area, a high end store Omnisound loved us for buying cables.
I don't know about other places, but I've seen too many pies that weren't delivered. That's why I don't like to bring in investors intil a business track record is established. It also keeps people off my *** until I feel comfortable with a smooth business model.
If I recall correctly, Asia was the largest exotic systems market for a very long time. I get the impression it still is. At least most homes I've visited have speakers way above the price range you have listed. The issue is how to compete with so many brands. Certainly lots more than I've seen in LA, NYC, and DFW. While I was in the DFW area, a high end store Omnisound loved us for buying cables.
I don't know about other places, but I've seen too many pies that weren't delivered. That's why I don't like to bring in investors intil a business track record is established. It also keeps people off my *** until I feel comfortable with a smooth business model.
The market for Hi-end Hi-fi is shrinking down to nothing - thats what I was refering to. Thats why we targeted Pro and then we wanted to go into Home Theater. At 100 units per year, simply calculate what the piece cost would have to be to support anything reasonable - like a factory and staff with decent incomes. At less than 100 units per month the piece markup would have to be several times the cost to make anything reasonable. I don't think that you've done the business model to think that 100 units at $1500 is going to support a factory and staff for a year.
Asia is a large market for cheap products, but I did not see much real money being spent there. Not like in the US. People talk about the "market" in Asia, but they never look at the "expendable income" only the GNP and the volume numbers. Virtually nobody in China or Thailand has expendable income. I'm sorry, I initially thought Asia would be a good market, but after being there for a year and a half I now think differently. There is very low expendable income on anything that is not a status symbol - like a car, etc. Peoples homes are small and poorly furnished, but they might drive a BMW. Maybe Taiwan is different, but its too small to actually make a difference.
If you are in Asia and making a good living making loudspeakers then I am impressed because I found it to be a daunghting task.
How do you wait "to bring in investors untill a business track record is established" without having a personal fortune to spend to get there? I think that I'm the one who must be missing something.
Asia is a large market for cheap products, but I did not see much real money being spent there. Not like in the US. People talk about the "market" in Asia, but they never look at the "expendable income" only the GNP and the volume numbers. Virtually nobody in China or Thailand has expendable income. I'm sorry, I initially thought Asia would be a good market, but after being there for a year and a half I now think differently. There is very low expendable income on anything that is not a status symbol - like a car, etc. Peoples homes are small and poorly furnished, but they might drive a BMW. Maybe Taiwan is different, but its too small to actually make a difference.
If you are in Asia and making a good living making loudspeakers then I am impressed because I found it to be a daunghting task.
How do you wait "to bring in investors untill a business track record is established" without having a personal fortune to spend to get there? I think that I'm the one who must be missing something.
you got a great speaker than share it with the public by making it for
sale. put that technology to use. use it or lose it. Dr Geddes, don't
give up on your speaker. I want to buy one after my kids finish
college. also what are the differences besides price on the
ESP 15, ESP 12, ESP 10?
sale. put that technology to use. use it or lose it. Dr Geddes, don't
give up on your speaker. I want to buy one after my kids finish
college. also what are the differences besides price on the
ESP 15, ESP 12, ESP 10?
market in asia
the only places in asia where exists a relevant high-end audio market, is hong kong, japan, and maby south korea and singapure. These markets are already highly disputed by the big names. There are very view newcomers, which are able to sell speakers there , and if, in very small numbers, and the names can be count by fingers : magico, cessaro..... i don't know many more. This is a tough business, and unless, you are able to develop a high-end speaker, which has big advantages ( price , performance and design ) and you have a nice budget to spend with magazine advertisings, etc. you won't go very far. Thailand is still a 3th world country, and so most other coutries in asia, too. Not many rich people there are educated abouth high-end audio, so the number of potencial clients shrinks even more. the best places remain the u.s. europe, japan and hong kong.
the only places in asia where exists a relevant high-end audio market, is hong kong, japan, and maby south korea and singapure. These markets are already highly disputed by the big names. There are very view newcomers, which are able to sell speakers there , and if, in very small numbers, and the names can be count by fingers : magico, cessaro..... i don't know many more. This is a tough business, and unless, you are able to develop a high-end speaker, which has big advantages ( price , performance and design ) and you have a nice budget to spend with magazine advertisings, etc. you won't go very far. Thailand is still a 3th world country, and so most other coutries in asia, too. Not many rich people there are educated abouth high-end audio, so the number of potencial clients shrinks even more. the best places remain the u.s. europe, japan and hong kong.
Targeting pro is a good approach for the US market. For home theater, I'm not so sure. One reason is that ever since I was over 20, we always found it much cheaper to buy electronics things in the US regardless where they are made.
When starting up, rather than investing in a factory, I chose to find local manufacturers that like a challenge to product better products. Factories that have been doing OEM for dirt cheap prices that are willing to extend their capabilities are the ones I look for regardless of size. Hopefully everyone can do well while minimizing startup financial burden. No route is easy, but each is an interesting experience.
To make money in the Taiwan market only is a bit difficult. But it's a good place to test the consumer response. Audio magazines in Taiwan are not doing well. Primarily because they rely on adds to support them. So if reviews are not promising, the the adds stop coming. I haven't read TAS reviews for a long time. Hope they are as good as they used to be.
Wages in China are increasing faster than Taiwan did in the past. Many factories are already moving to Nam and Thailand, etc. So I expect China to have much more buying power now. Some friends and relatives there give me the same impression as well.
When starting up, rather than investing in a factory, I chose to find local manufacturers that like a challenge to product better products. Factories that have been doing OEM for dirt cheap prices that are willing to extend their capabilities are the ones I look for regardless of size. Hopefully everyone can do well while minimizing startup financial burden. No route is easy, but each is an interesting experience.
To make money in the Taiwan market only is a bit difficult. But it's a good place to test the consumer response. Audio magazines in Taiwan are not doing well. Primarily because they rely on adds to support them. So if reviews are not promising, the the adds stop coming. I haven't read TAS reviews for a long time. Hope they are as good as they used to be.
Wages in China are increasing faster than Taiwan did in the past. Many factories are already moving to Nam and Thailand, etc. So I expect China to have much more buying power now. Some friends and relatives there give me the same impression as well.
FWIW, here is a thread that displays some systems in Taiwan, HK, and China. Mostly in Taiwan.
http://www.myav.com.tw/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186039&postid=3482215#post3482215
This forum has 90000+ members.
http://www.myav.com.tw/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186039&postid=3482215#post3482215
This forum has 90000+ members.
audiostar said:
The differences in the ESP15, 12 and 10 are the woofer and the size. The cabinet width in every case is limited by the woofer width, then the waveguide is sized to this width. That then reduces the height also. The performance degradation is mostly due to the smaller waveguide not working as well, they all have the same compression driver, waveguide contour and foam plug. The LF cutoff goes up as the box gets smaller of course, but with subs this is not a big problem. The ESP12 is about 1/4 the size of the ESP15, but still on the large side. The ESP10 is only about 10 x 20 x 8 - about the size of a typical bookshelf speaker. The 12 and the 15 sound very very similar with the 15 sounding just a bit smoother. The ten has some directivity control issues due the much-too-small waveguide, but its still much better than any other bookshelf that I have measured.
If I am able to get the ESP12 into the US I believe that it would be a huge success as it seems to have just the right set of compromises.
I haven't given up yet, but this last set back was a serious one financially and restarting here is a serious financial investment. Its the classic situation - I've got too much invested to just walk away, but lost enough not to consider it.
Dr. Geddes I still did not clearly understand why is necessary to hold DI above 8 in 1KHz+ range. I assume it is from the reason to supress reflections in lateral direction. But on the other hand in B.Moore's book An Introduction to Psychology of Hearing there is written that the precedence effect and other mechanisms in auditory system supress those reflection very efectively. Maybe that is why we are still able localise source in higly reverbant fields.
I'm asking because in case of very early reflections (under 1ms) and image location for source level and time diferences you are both in agreement. Or I'm misssing something?
Second question which bother me is a imbalance between monopole lows and highly directive heights. Without acoustical treatment in room it should have a deteriorative effect on timbre, isn't it?
Tomas
I'm asking because in case of very early reflections (under 1ms) and image location for source level and time diferences you are both in agreement. Or I'm misssing something?
Second question which bother me is a imbalance between monopole lows and highly directive heights. Without acoustical treatment in room it should have a deteriorative effect on timbre, isn't it?
Tomas
MethMan said:
Very good questions.
There is no clear cut widely agreed upon answer - I differ with Toole who differs with Moore, etc. etc. I think the bottom line here is that the precidence effect simply defines the predominate perceived direction of the signal when reflections exist. The readily available literature does not imply anything about the sound quality impacts of those very same reflections - Blauert makes this point very strongly. Toole quoted me unavailable (internal) research that says that very early reflections "are not a problem" yet I can quote my own work which shows a highly significant impact on sound quality from very early reflections and diffraction. So take your pick!! Although I do think that Moore would agree that the presidence effect says nothing about sound quality.
In my work I have found that for good sound quality, i.e. accuracy of reproduction, influences from the speakers or the room should be minimized for at least several ms after the direct sound arrival. After 10 ms., the more energy the better. A quick thought will show that the narrower the directivity the more the particular influence of early refelctions from the room is minimized and the greater the later reflected energy is maximized by proper choice of room absorption (i.e. almost nothing behind the listener, but dead behind the speakers - Yea, I know that this is the exact opposit of many peoples recomendations).
Now virtually everyone appears to agree that as the frequency goes lower, our ability to discriminate group delay, reflections, source location, etc. drops as the frequency drops. This means that the problems associated with early reflections and diffraction will not be as significant at lower frequencies as they are at higher frequencies. We can argue about whether the directivity needs to be controlled down to 500 Hz. or 350 Hz. or 200 Hz., but I don't think that there can be an arguement that one needs to control the directivity down to the lowest frequencies.
The choice of how far down to control the directivity then becomes one of practicality. It's not a completely impossible task to do it to 500 Hz., although its tough enough, 350 Hz. and things are getting pretty big. 200 Hz. well thats going towards the impossible and meaningless in a small room.
I have paper designs that can do this control to 350 Hz. (but this system would be impractical to build) and the Summa does it to about 500 Hz. Most speakers aren't really constant directivity so its impossible to compare them to one that actually is CD.
Finally to you last question - as the directivity of the system goes down, the sound absorption should go up (which again is the exact opposit of what is usually done) such that a very large amount of sound absorption is required below about 100 Hz. Again, difficult, but not impossible - I do it in all my designs.
Then put about three subs randomly arround the room and you will reach Nirvana! With the right CD or DVD of course. Junk is junk on any system, although I've heard some systems that were so bad that they even made junk CDs sound better!!
Group buy
Hello everybody,
is the group buy for a 15'' waveguide mentioned at the beginning of the threat still planned?
Question for Dr. Geddes,
which compression driver do you recommend for that waveguide?
Best regards and best wishes for christmass!
Zelter
Hello everybody,
is the group buy for a 15'' waveguide mentioned at the beginning of the threat still planned?
Question for Dr. Geddes,
which compression driver do you recommend for that waveguide?
Best regards and best wishes for christmass!
Zelter
gedlee said:
An interesting read I came across over avguide, the write up about GuangZhou (China) Hi-Fi Show in Dec. On page 3, the viewer mention that US importer are buying the entry level of China audio component and sell them as audiophiles in US.
http://www.avguide.com/news/2007/12/03/the-guangzhou-hi-fi-show/3/
Have a fun new year 😀
I think shelving active crossover is a good choice for horn loaded tweeter if distortion spectra is uniform. Mid frequency linearity at 30 deg is +-0.25dB - see appended picture. There's only one problem - cavity resonance from curved front plate and throat diameter which here is equal to coil diameter. Normally dome tweeter is a bit wider because of suspension. I've used rubber gasket but if dome radiates more at suspension then it can be a phase cancellation there?
Attachments
Re: Group buy
Please note, as I explained earlier, that I cannot guarantee the prices that I quoted then. I may not be able to get the parts from Thailand and if I do they would likeley be more expensive. I really can't quote prices until I find out my costs for the parts.
I have tried several compression drivers, and they all perform comparably, but I tend to like the B&C DE250 because it works with the best at a below average cost - whats not to like!?
zelter said:
Please note, as I explained earlier, that I cannot guarantee the prices that I quoted then. I may not be able to get the parts from Thailand and if I do they would likeley be more expensive. I really can't quote prices until I find out my costs for the parts.
I have tried several compression drivers, and they all perform comparably, but I tend to like the B&C DE250 because it works with the best at a below average cost - whats not to like!?
Now if only I could find affordable compression drivers, they all seem to be rather big ticket items.