There is a difference between returning them to help A'af expidite a refund and your claim of laundering back into the system to perpetuate this fraud - where did anyone in this forum suggest we send them back to have them resold ?
Let's see some good will on A'af's side first, if he will refund the money to people who paid for devices but didn't receive them. Only then you may consider sending fake parts back.
Possibly cutting a leg is a good idea for all. A'af' should check into this. However, it seems logical that dictating terms of return to him may keep him from being able to get a refund from his supplier. I really don't think that one can add additional requirements to something like this.
Being concerned about them being resold is an additional requirement that might be impossible for him to meet. As has been pointed out, a sophisticated buyer should be able to recognize them, and would test them randomly. It is unfortunate that this wasn't done. There are certainly many many many more counterfit items out there and I think that only defense is to buy from people that will make things right if the are counterfit, as A'af aparently does, OR to test them before purchase.
So far I think that A'af sounds like he is planning to make things better. I don't see how he can get a refund without returning the devices- he needs to show the seller that they are all fake. The seller is going to wonder why people are so enamored of the "fake" devices that they won't return them. Really- it's logical. To use the store analogy, if something is inadequate and you want a refund, then you have to return it- in the condition it was bought.
Certainly this is a very serious problem, but I would prefer to give A'af a chance to make things right before taking the next step. Of course this is unacceptable here to have groups buys fail in this way, but I think SOME people should try it his way and see if they get the refund.
It will also be of great interest if the people that haven't been mailed parts will get a refund. Of course its possible that many devices are already in the mail and are just not received yet....
I think the message has been sent to A'af - PEople are very upset and this will have repercussions if it isn't made right.- yet these continuous attacks may not be productive.
Being concerned about them being resold is an additional requirement that might be impossible for him to meet. As has been pointed out, a sophisticated buyer should be able to recognize them, and would test them randomly. It is unfortunate that this wasn't done. There are certainly many many many more counterfit items out there and I think that only defense is to buy from people that will make things right if the are counterfit, as A'af aparently does, OR to test them before purchase.
So far I think that A'af sounds like he is planning to make things better. I don't see how he can get a refund without returning the devices- he needs to show the seller that they are all fake. The seller is going to wonder why people are so enamored of the "fake" devices that they won't return them. Really- it's logical. To use the store analogy, if something is inadequate and you want a refund, then you have to return it- in the condition it was bought.
Certainly this is a very serious problem, but I would prefer to give A'af a chance to make things right before taking the next step. Of course this is unacceptable here to have groups buys fail in this way, but I think SOME people should try it his way and see if they get the refund.
It will also be of great interest if the people that haven't been mailed parts will get a refund. Of course its possible that many devices are already in the mail and are just not received yet....
I think the message has been sent to A'af - PEople are very upset and this will have repercussions if it isn't made right.- yet these continuous attacks may not be productive.
I think A'af needs to be more serious with his replies here and act more swiftly on returning people,s money than it took to supply the suspect goods - 67 days in my case. As I said in post #526, I have asked for a full reply and then I will send the transistors back at my expense, this still leaves me out of pocket with return postage costs and Paypal fees to receive the refund.
We need to see some goodwill on A'af's behalf in all of this in acting quickly and responsibly. I get the feeling from his replies so far that this refund proceedure will drag on forever as I cannot see his dodgy supplier acting in good faith to return the money quickly or ever at all.
After all, there is over $12,000.00 USD in goods involved here to DIYAudio enthusiasts all over the world. Perhaps the moderators / owners should step in here and read A,af the riot act as I am certainly not happy to be out of pocket to the expense of more than $250.00 USD with this fiasco. I feel this issue also detracts from the other good work on this forum and the moderators should take notice of this.
This scenario is a good lesson to be learned by all and I certainly will be most hesitant in participating in these group buys unless I am absolutely sure the seller can deliver exactly what they are selling.
Again I state that A'af should refund the money immediately to all the people that paid their hard earned money up front to him. Now it is time for him to return the money up front and without any futher time wasting or delay.
I have sent A'af a private email on my thoughts and am still waiting for a reply, I will keep sending him emails till this is resolved properly.
Regards
Gary..
We need to see some goodwill on A'af's behalf in all of this in acting quickly and responsibly. I get the feeling from his replies so far that this refund proceedure will drag on forever as I cannot see his dodgy supplier acting in good faith to return the money quickly or ever at all.
After all, there is over $12,000.00 USD in goods involved here to DIYAudio enthusiasts all over the world. Perhaps the moderators / owners should step in here and read A,af the riot act as I am certainly not happy to be out of pocket to the expense of more than $250.00 USD with this fiasco. I feel this issue also detracts from the other good work on this forum and the moderators should take notice of this.
This scenario is a good lesson to be learned by all and I certainly will be most hesitant in participating in these group buys unless I am absolutely sure the seller can deliver exactly what they are selling.
Again I state that A'af should refund the money immediately to all the people that paid their hard earned money up front to him. Now it is time for him to return the money up front and without any futher time wasting or delay.
I have sent A'af a private email on my thoughts and am still waiting for a reply, I will keep sending him emails till this is resolved properly.
Regards
Gary..
Hi Gary,
Two other things come to mind. Firstly, we have nothing to do with group buys - no involvement or control over any part of the deal. Secondly we can not and will not make anything public that is of a private nature regarding a member or any details regarding discussions concerning a member.
I will say that myself and others are personally distressed over the way things turn out so far. There is still not much we can do until things are settled. Even then, there may be nothing that can be done.
-Chris
Ahhh, did you happen to notice that the head moderator's post second above yours?
Two other things come to mind. Firstly, we have nothing to do with group buys - no involvement or control over any part of the deal. Secondly we can not and will not make anything public that is of a private nature regarding a member or any details regarding discussions concerning a member.
I will say that myself and others are personally distressed over the way things turn out so far. There is still not much we can do until things are settled. Even then, there may be nothing that can be done.
-Chris
Hi Milan,
Knowingly manufacturing and distributing of counterfeit goods is illegal.
Your previous post is the threatening one. I doubt that you can get blood from a stone and I don't see how you expect to get anything before A'af himself does. You are being unreasonable. I can see why you would be unhappy.
One question for you. If A'af knowingly did this, then why the devil is he still here? If you crank up enough pressure, a normal person may just simply walk away. So, what do you want? All he has to do is disappear and you will have exactly what you are currently holding in your hand to show for it. So really, you choose. Make an attempt to be rational about this. Don't ask for impossible things.
-Chris
No, more like this ...
Knowingly manufacturing and distributing of counterfeit goods is illegal.
How did you come up with that? No one is talking about laundering fake product. They are talking about returning them for refund as a defective product. Normally, if you expect a refund on a purchase of goods, returning the defective goods is part of the deal. The exception is when they are confiscated as part of an investigation by the legal authorities.
If you get a refund in this case - feel very lucky. It's possible that A'af may get credit or replacement only for those returned. In that case, you opted to be satisfied with what you got.
Your previous post is the threatening one. I doubt that you can get blood from a stone and I don't see how you expect to get anything before A'af himself does. You are being unreasonable. I can see why you would be unhappy.
One question for you. If A'af knowingly did this, then why the devil is he still here? If you crank up enough pressure, a normal person may just simply walk away. So, what do you want? All he has to do is disappear and you will have exactly what you are currently holding in your hand to show for it. So really, you choose. Make an attempt to be rational about this. Don't ask for impossible things.
-Chris
Chris,
Fed threaten and abused lot of people people for a lot less important issues than this and no one did a damn about it for a very long time . Just ask Grey.
As you admit, and meaning no disrepect the moderators are powerless to do anything about it in terms of Rules.
As I and many others see it. The more your facilitate the dragging out of any resolution, the less likely it is to occur.
I think it reasonable that A'af accepts a certain amount of flak
on the basis he willfully solicited interest in a GB in this thead as he has done elsewhere (almost bragged about it to John Curl) to supply these goods and did not entrust another member(s) with the inner planning or oganisation.
In this respect he did the deal very privately. None of the details have been made public. That is now arousing suspician.
This is where this group buy is diffierent from others where the interest and responsibility for PCB's etc has been shared and done so publicaly by members.
The concern of members is also justified in that no real program or steps has been outlined by A'af how he is going to resolve the issue or what compensation if any is going to come out of this.
There need to be a Resolution Process and I think the Moderators should step up to the plate a facilite and moderate an amicable resolution process.
Aáf cannot afford to dissappear, he is not that stupid.
So why are you letting the tail wag the dog?
Incidentally selling fake or stolen goods is a punishable crime in the western world. It is the responsibility of the seller to ensure the goods are fit for sale and are delivered as described. Check with your local magistrate on the old law for selling a false misrepresented product.
There is also the Ecommerce Crimes Act now in place in most parts of the civilised world.
I course no one wants to this it come down to that but a bit more substance from Aáf would help.
Fed threaten and abused lot of people people for a lot less important issues than this and no one did a damn about it for a very long time . Just ask Grey.
As you admit, and meaning no disrepect the moderators are powerless to do anything about it in terms of Rules.
As I and many others see it. The more your facilitate the dragging out of any resolution, the less likely it is to occur.
I think it reasonable that A'af accepts a certain amount of flak
on the basis he willfully solicited interest in a GB in this thead as he has done elsewhere (almost bragged about it to John Curl) to supply these goods and did not entrust another member(s) with the inner planning or oganisation.
In this respect he did the deal very privately. None of the details have been made public. That is now arousing suspician.
This is where this group buy is diffierent from others where the interest and responsibility for PCB's etc has been shared and done so publicaly by members.
The concern of members is also justified in that no real program or steps has been outlined by A'af how he is going to resolve the issue or what compensation if any is going to come out of this.
There need to be a Resolution Process and I think the Moderators should step up to the plate a facilite and moderate an amicable resolution process.
Aáf cannot afford to dissappear, he is not that stupid.
So why are you letting the tail wag the dog?
Incidentally selling fake or stolen goods is a punishable crime in the western world. It is the responsibility of the seller to ensure the goods are fit for sale and are delivered as described. Check with your local magistrate on the old law for selling a false misrepresented product.
There is also the Ecommerce Crimes Act now in place in most parts of the civilised world.
I course no one wants to this it come down to that but a bit more substance from Aáf would help.
He is a trader and has a clientel.
Of course its difficult to trade while someone else is giving them away!
macka😉
Of course its difficult to trade while someone else is giving them away!
macka😉
Hi Macka,
What a truly generous and very welcome gesture at a time such as this.
Luckily, I have sufficient devices for my impending needs, but I am certain that this will be a life-saver for many less fortunate Members.
Well done, for something which is truly in the spirit of helping others, which sometimes seems rather absent in certain threads on this Forum lately.
If, as intimated, NP is also behind this assistance, whilst my respect for him could not be any higher than it is already, he has also proved that he is a gentleman in every respect.
Kind regards,🙂
What a truly generous and very welcome gesture at a time such as this.
Luckily, I have sufficient devices for my impending needs, but I am certain that this will be a life-saver for many less fortunate Members.
Well done, for something which is truly in the spirit of helping others, which sometimes seems rather absent in certain threads on this Forum lately.
If, as intimated, NP is also behind this assistance, whilst my respect for him could not be any higher than it is already, he has also proved that he is a gentleman in every respect.
Kind regards,🙂
analog_sa said:
Many places (forum or sure fine, whatever you name it!!) to do like yours here analog_sa!!
anyway whats your beef here??? 😀 😀 😀
all the best,
a'af
Hi to all buyer,
refund process is in progress, need times to do it!
Must go to bank to fill it up the "tank"
yesterday is weeekeeend... 😉
all the best,
a'af
refund process is in progress, need times to do it!
Must go to bank to fill it up the "tank"
yesterday is weeekeeend... 😉
all the best,
a'af
oops...
forgot to say... i respect and impress to you all moderator here... 😎 😎 😎
all the best,
a'af
forgot to say... i respect and impress to you all moderator here... 😎 😎 😎
all the best,
a'af
Thanks for trying to sort things out A'af. I will be sending all 50 of my fake parts back to you shortly as a gesture of confidence and goodwill.
Ian.
Ian.
A'af said:
Hi A'af,
my parts are on their way back. Hope they help you to get money back from your supplier.
Greetings,
Chris
Hi Ian,
I could go on. Let me say that I understand why people are upset. However, you are insisting that others who are not involved share in the misery. You are attempting to drag people into a situation that normally you wouldn't want involved. You are aware these are personal deals as it's been made quite clear several times. You do not want big brother watching everything you do. You don't want anyone taking a cut, but using the free web space to broker the deal is okay - right?
I see your post addressed to me as an excuse to rant over things that have no bearing on this situation. You criticize the moderating members for no reason and are in fact attempting to blame this deal on the site and moderators. Grow up. It's nice that you will help some members out, but I must say that the way you did this has an extra agenda. I will thank you for your gesture as I would anyone who is giving away parts. However, this is between you and A'af along with the other members involved in this deal.
At any rate, the attention you've focused on me is confusing. I have never attacked you in any way, nor have I made your life difficult in the past. The action is something like that of a mad dog, biting anything near.
-Chris
I'm sorry. You lost me there. You will note that we all have tried to keep peace between members. We are not everywhere and all the time. We are not your mommy or daddy either.
Again, I don't know what you mean. If this thread were to break down into a warring mess, no one would get anything accomplished. You guys would all end up with nothing.
Sure, at little. However, some of you went too far. No one knows the complete story, I know less. I do know when some members are only attempting to cause trouble.
It's a private Group Buy. What did you expect? We moderators sure as heck don't know anything beyond what is posted. Had the deal gone well, there would be no suspicion at all.
Tell me Ian, exactly how many people does it take to order a two skew parts list? A pcb is different in that different skills are used. Even then, there have been single member GB's involving parts kits and PCB's that have worked out just fine.
I could go on. Let me say that I understand why people are upset. However, you are insisting that others who are not involved share in the misery. You are attempting to drag people into a situation that normally you wouldn't want involved. You are aware these are personal deals as it's been made quite clear several times. You do not want big brother watching everything you do. You don't want anyone taking a cut, but using the free web space to broker the deal is okay - right?
I see your post addressed to me as an excuse to rant over things that have no bearing on this situation. You criticize the moderating members for no reason and are in fact attempting to blame this deal on the site and moderators. Grow up. It's nice that you will help some members out, but I must say that the way you did this has an extra agenda. I will thank you for your gesture as I would anyone who is giving away parts. However, this is between you and A'af along with the other members involved in this deal.
At any rate, the attention you've focused on me is confusing. I have never attacked you in any way, nor have I made your life difficult in the past. The action is something like that of a mad dog, biting anything near.
-Chris
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