JJ- yeah, play a few chords for demo (9th chords sound smooth on this guitar) then give it to the master!
I have tried other amps and it seems my horns can only handle so much power, before they start to sound kind of "boomy" and unnatural to my ears anyway. Stops sounding like an acoustic guitar, so to speak, sounds more electric. Plus 112 dB max at one meter is probably as loud as I want anyway. My Roland amp is 30 watts, seems just right. I have some headroom, max it out and too loud, so I usually play on about 8-1/2. That said, I am sure there are alternatives that might very well be better, I am def open to that.
I don't think I can get around the fact that this guitar is a functional prototype, I explain that right away. Plus what really gets attention right away is the body with the drivers mounted, that pulls they eyes of my fugly screws. Everybody to a person says something like "what the hell is" this when they first see it, pass that baby around all day! Also since it took me so long to get this guitar to work well, I really don't want to change anything right now.
The second build, that is a different story, I am open to making many changes with that build, plus stain and urethane it...maybe some bindings, maybe some mother of pearl, not sure about the screws.
The good news is I reached my YouTube/Website goal before we sell our house, we are moving back to Chicago, where most of my family lives, so now the build time is in jeopardy for a bit. Have not even listed the house yet, doing repairs and tossing/recycling all the crazy amounts of junk.
The other good news is I will have a huge basement for my office/studio/shop for my second and third guitar build, and the piano "build" or I should say alteration. Still waiting for patent #4 for the piano, and that is it, no more patents, too damn time consuming. Stop designing and writing, and keep building and playing!
I have tried other amps and it seems my horns can only handle so much power, before they start to sound kind of "boomy" and unnatural to my ears anyway. Stops sounding like an acoustic guitar, so to speak, sounds more electric. Plus 112 dB max at one meter is probably as loud as I want anyway. My Roland amp is 30 watts, seems just right. I have some headroom, max it out and too loud, so I usually play on about 8-1/2. That said, I am sure there are alternatives that might very well be better, I am def open to that.
I don't think I can get around the fact that this guitar is a functional prototype, I explain that right away. Plus what really gets attention right away is the body with the drivers mounted, that pulls they eyes of my fugly screws. Everybody to a person says something like "what the hell is" this when they first see it, pass that baby around all day! Also since it took me so long to get this guitar to work well, I really don't want to change anything right now.
The second build, that is a different story, I am open to making many changes with that build, plus stain and urethane it...maybe some bindings, maybe some mother of pearl, not sure about the screws.
The good news is I reached my YouTube/Website goal before we sell our house, we are moving back to Chicago, where most of my family lives, so now the build time is in jeopardy for a bit. Have not even listed the house yet, doing repairs and tossing/recycling all the crazy amounts of junk.
The other good news is I will have a huge basement for my office/studio/shop for my second and third guitar build, and the piano "build" or I should say alteration. Still waiting for patent #4 for the piano, and that is it, no more patents, too damn time consuming. Stop designing and writing, and keep building and playing!
I suppose it could go either way; the Roland has its advantages. Just mentioning the pedalboard amps as a way to "clean up" the setup, over a speaker disemboweled cabinet amp. Plus the pedalboard amps are a "within the last 5 years" idea, which might fit well with a music students current perspective on available amp hardware.
I bet you have time to replace the screws with something more decorative, between now and when you make this demo trip.
I like the pedalboard amp idea JJ, there are some out there for acoustic guitar. It would look much more professional I agree, but I have to admit I like the idea of the amp with two holes in it, where are the speakers? Oh yeah they are in the guitar! Normally I could see this being a little cheesy, but given the fact that nobody else is doing it, maybe it has a place.
Replace the screws again eh? 🤣 Who could blame you for saying this again, not me! I just wish I had a better option. Man those screws work better than I expected. OK the ugly: not sure if I mentioned it before, but I have tried a few screws with brass washers, I think it looks better, but I am so biased on this soundboard design, that I don't even trust myself anymore! Healthy. I also tried brass screws, those weak bitches will snap off just by looking at them!
Replace the screws again eh? 🤣 Who could blame you for saying this again, not me! I just wish I had a better option. Man those screws work better than I expected. OK the ugly: not sure if I mentioned it before, but I have tried a few screws with brass washers, I think it looks better, but I am so biased on this soundboard design, that I don't even trust myself anymore! Healthy. I also tried brass screws, those weak bitches will snap off just by looking at them!
This seems pretty impressive https://carvinaudio.com/products/mach100-100w-pedal-amplifier It's two independent channel stereo, so you'd have 50W per driver in your guitar. Now if only we were "loop station" masters; lick off a groove, loop it and start accompanying yourself with your guitar sounding like two of your guitars, all coming out the same body. One speaker playing live, one playing the looping recording. This box would need a preamp for compression / tone and to buffer your pickups.
I'd think if you're going to get an invite to Berklee, you'd want to appear "hip" to some of the latest stuff. I believe that Carvin amp-pedal could be run from batteries; another one of these 24V DC input jobs.
It's an interesting investigation; I never knew these things existed. Seymour Duncan has a stereo amp box with just a volume and 5 tone controls; it's a lot more expensive than the Carvin. The Hughes & Kettner StompMan guitar amplifier pedal is a bit more, but looks like its got the preamp part covered and will do 50W into 4 Ohms with a mono single channel output. I understand your speakers are 4 ohm each, so that's going to cause trouble getting the 50W; you would need to series connect to 8 Ohms, power drops to 25 with that particular pedal.
How about shiny "studs" all around the top. Stainless strength. Might be spendy!
I'd think if you're going to get an invite to Berklee, you'd want to appear "hip" to some of the latest stuff. I believe that Carvin amp-pedal could be run from batteries; another one of these 24V DC input jobs.
It's an interesting investigation; I never knew these things existed. Seymour Duncan has a stereo amp box with just a volume and 5 tone controls; it's a lot more expensive than the Carvin. The Hughes & Kettner StompMan guitar amplifier pedal is a bit more, but looks like its got the preamp part covered and will do 50W into 4 Ohms with a mono single channel output. I understand your speakers are 4 ohm each, so that's going to cause trouble getting the 50W; you would need to series connect to 8 Ohms, power drops to 25 with that particular pedal.
How about shiny "studs" all around the top. Stainless strength. Might be spendy!
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In some ways I think trying to appear hip to a younger audience, would just look like a guy that is not young trying to appear hip, not very authentic. 🤣
Now I agree keeping up on newer and better equipment would help at Berklee, but I am just not seeing better when it comes to an acoustic guitar sound. If I want to do that, just play a modeling guitar. It is an electric guitar trying its best to sound like an acoustic guitar, and that is exactly what it sounds like, trying to be acoustic, and it is not.
I like the pedal amp idea, it just looks like a pedal amp for an electric guitar. I have tried some smaller amps before, and they all made my guitar sound more like an electric guitar, which I do not want of course.
I do like the fastener idea, might look pretty good. I also want to try brass washers with my high tensile strength steel screws. It might look better, but I will not know until I install all of them, and take a look. I had this idea earlier, but can't find any pictures of actually doing this.
Some music industry analytics just for fun. Really great to see the U.S being so strong in music as we all know, but Japan is very strong, look how huge Yamaha is, they will not stop! Per capita Japan is very strong, and China is moving fast. India, the largest country in the world by population now, not so much, will this change? Innovation is critical!!
Now I agree keeping up on newer and better equipment would help at Berklee, but I am just not seeing better when it comes to an acoustic guitar sound. If I want to do that, just play a modeling guitar. It is an electric guitar trying its best to sound like an acoustic guitar, and that is exactly what it sounds like, trying to be acoustic, and it is not.
I like the pedal amp idea, it just looks like a pedal amp for an electric guitar. I have tried some smaller amps before, and they all made my guitar sound more like an electric guitar, which I do not want of course.
I do like the fastener idea, might look pretty good. I also want to try brass washers with my high tensile strength steel screws. It might look better, but I will not know until I install all of them, and take a look. I had this idea earlier, but can't find any pictures of actually doing this.
Some music industry analytics just for fun. Really great to see the U.S being so strong in music as we all know, but Japan is very strong, look how huge Yamaha is, they will not stop! Per capita Japan is very strong, and China is moving fast. India, the largest country in the world by population now, not so much, will this change? Innovation is critical!!
Unsure what makes an acoustic guitar amplifier so special; I assume lack of any sort of distortion generating mechanism. Mine has ample EQ (graphic) and ambient effect (reverb), other than that it's just a gain stage with a common "chip" amplifier, as are 99% of these things these days.
The Carvin pedal amp I suggested is supposedly 100% clean, so then you could put any purpose built acoustic guitar preamp / effects box upstream and have an acoustic guitar amplifier in pedal sized form factor. Having that combo be battery powered would be a convenience for playing on the street.
I'm sure the folks at Berklee will recognize the advantage of having to carry just a pedalboard in a backpack and your guitar in a case, while commuting to their favorite busking site.
The Carvin pedal amp I suggested is supposedly 100% clean, so then you could put any purpose built acoustic guitar preamp / effects box upstream and have an acoustic guitar amplifier in pedal sized form factor. Having that combo be battery powered would be a convenience for playing on the street.
I'm sure the folks at Berklee will recognize the advantage of having to carry just a pedalboard in a backpack and your guitar in a case, while commuting to their favorite busking site.
Yeah I know JJ, I have checked out the acoustic guitar amp vs. electric guitar amp. All I ever find is an acoustic amp is cleaner and more like a PA, and an electric guitar amp can handle compression and distortion, blah, blah, but actually I can tell a difference, that is why I like my Roland amp so much, it really is cleaner.
Anyway, if you say the Carvin pedal amp is clean, that is great. I love the size an power, I just purchased it from your link, thanks! 😎
I will add this to my second guitar (or at least test) and I will think about a more attractive way of mounting my soundboard. I finally finished the Sitka Spruce soundboard with all the ribs in solid, not glued, all by hand, man that took forever, but I like it! We shall see what the results are...also I am working more on the neck tomorrow. I am keeping the old functional proto as is, but am stepping up guitar #2, plus I will stain and varnish everything. It may take some time, but that is the goal. If I get an offer from somebody big (somebody in Boston? 🤣 ) I just may need to wing it with the old version, but who cares, the SOUND is there!
My soundboard vibrates great of course, as all do, but it also moves. I can move my soundboard 1/4" with my finger, like a drum skin or banjo skin, and man are they both loud. I am thinking not only do I get great vibration at every frequency as usual, but also greater amplitude for each frequency due to greater amount of movement. Am I correct about this? I bet the Godfather can school me on this issue, let me know what you think Art and thanks!
Anyway, if you say the Carvin pedal amp is clean, that is great. I love the size an power, I just purchased it from your link, thanks! 😎
I will add this to my second guitar (or at least test) and I will think about a more attractive way of mounting my soundboard. I finally finished the Sitka Spruce soundboard with all the ribs in solid, not glued, all by hand, man that took forever, but I like it! We shall see what the results are...also I am working more on the neck tomorrow. I am keeping the old functional proto as is, but am stepping up guitar #2, plus I will stain and varnish everything. It may take some time, but that is the goal. If I get an offer from somebody big (somebody in Boston? 🤣 ) I just may need to wing it with the old version, but who cares, the SOUND is there!
My soundboard vibrates great of course, as all do, but it also moves. I can move my soundboard 1/4" with my finger, like a drum skin or banjo skin, and man are they both loud. I am thinking not only do I get great vibration at every frequency as usual, but also greater amplitude for each frequency due to greater amount of movement. Am I correct about this? I bet the Godfather can school me on this issue, let me know what you think Art and thanks!
I've certainly no idea how soundboards on a guitar actually work. Like any "tympanic membrane" I know they have resonance and resonant modes. One is where the whole thing is moving up and down like a trampoline. A second is where portions - say left and right - sections are moving up and down, but out of phase with one another; when one is moving upward, the opposite is moving downward.
My Seagull has asymetrical bracing; the pattern under the upward half of the soundboard is different than the bottom half; yes, that's a transducer stuck to the soundboard underneath. It "works"; other performers commented it sounded okay, one remarking the guitar sounds different than with it miked. Well, of course.
It still doesnt sound as good as that guy's Taylor with whatever pickup that guitar has in it. There is a sharp resonance at the note f1#, which is - apparently - the first mode of the top's resonance. I had the pickup placed at the bottom half, the f1# resonance picked up even worse there.
I actually used a scientific method to determine placement, but that's too long an explanation to put here in your thread. Please excuse the lousy "photoshopped" image -
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Yes JJ, so most acoustic guitar soundboards are very stiff, great for vibration. But at what point is it too stiff? It will become a dampener eventually, taken too far for example, a concrete wall. At what point does having it move just a little bit "more like trampoline" help, and how much movement helps, before it gets to the other extreme, a piece of rubber, that has no stiffness and also becomes a dampener, yes? Any advise from people in the know would be greatly appreciated.
Lately I have not been too concerned about power, it is there, let's move on...what about how the horns do (or do not) change the tone of the guitar as the power blows into the room? I play a simple E chord, no horns, then I play the same E chord, with horns, blows 25 dB more power into the room. You know what, it still sounds like the same acoustic E chord, just more power, does not sound like an acoustic guitar with electronics added. Horns ******* work man, just beautiful! I for the life of me can't understand why there are horn haters, why? They sound honky? Really? Give me an example please.
Links for YouTube and Website again for anybody interested:
https://katzenberger-engineering.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxD9kyPBoJP78ILhDOV4_VQ
Lately I have not been too concerned about power, it is there, let's move on...what about how the horns do (or do not) change the tone of the guitar as the power blows into the room? I play a simple E chord, no horns, then I play the same E chord, with horns, blows 25 dB more power into the room. You know what, it still sounds like the same acoustic E chord, just more power, does not sound like an acoustic guitar with electronics added. Horns ******* work man, just beautiful! I for the life of me can't understand why there are horn haters, why? They sound honky? Really? Give me an example please.
Links for YouTube and Website again for anybody interested:
https://katzenberger-engineering.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxD9kyPBoJP78ILhDOV4_VQ
Most drums are built to be tunable. Acoustic guitars are not; you get what you get and hopefully the person building it knows what they're doing. For some reason the acoustic guitar soundboard has a high "q", which means it resonates fairly strongly at a frequency. I assume that helps with "projection"; how far out into an audience it can reach in its own. That was a concern before the vacuum tube was invented.
Now, for an acoustic guitar to sound like one, it needs this top resonance. It also needs the "air" resonance of the port and body cavity volume. We've been trained over the last few hundred years on this particular sound and it all started with this need to project; the better guitar to play being the one people could actually hear, even if that was centered around a boom on f# or g. A loudspeaker would never pass muster behaving that way.
I believe you can get a nice complex response out of the top by arranging the type of wood, its thickness and the pattern of bracing one ordinarily places underneath. This art is at quite the high level. Fan bracing / ladder bracing and all the permutations in between. It's a tough art to master and I'm sure many beings have lived and died for their beliefs of what's the right way to go in that particular art form.
Hell, it's all I can do just to find a good spot on the soundboard to put a pickup. They sell sets with two and three elements; I notice a difference in sound just moving the one I'm using 1/4" inch. Cant imagine the patience needed to place 3. to get the best possible sound.
I like your removable top; I wish all acoustic guitars were made that way, except with removable backs. Welts on my forearm from reaching in there through the sound hole trying to put in place something precisely. If the )&^ back just came off with screws...
Now, for an acoustic guitar to sound like one, it needs this top resonance. It also needs the "air" resonance of the port and body cavity volume. We've been trained over the last few hundred years on this particular sound and it all started with this need to project; the better guitar to play being the one people could actually hear, even if that was centered around a boom on f# or g. A loudspeaker would never pass muster behaving that way.
I believe you can get a nice complex response out of the top by arranging the type of wood, its thickness and the pattern of bracing one ordinarily places underneath. This art is at quite the high level. Fan bracing / ladder bracing and all the permutations in between. It's a tough art to master and I'm sure many beings have lived and died for their beliefs of what's the right way to go in that particular art form.
Hell, it's all I can do just to find a good spot on the soundboard to put a pickup. They sell sets with two and three elements; I notice a difference in sound just moving the one I'm using 1/4" inch. Cant imagine the patience needed to place 3. to get the best possible sound.
I like your removable top; I wish all acoustic guitars were made that way, except with removable backs. Welts on my forearm from reaching in there through the sound hole trying to put in place something precisely. If the )&^ back just came off with screws...
Hey - looks like you can now do FR measurements in REW using your favorite signal - playing the guitar itself - as the source for making the measurement.
Apparently you need a better interface than a USB microphone for it to work right. I have a Focusrite box and an old school 48V phantom powered measurement mic, which should work with the method. Details are in the REW links in the above thread.
Imagine going into a guitar store, picking up an instrument to play it - it sounds a little like you're playing it - but really you're getting an FR graph to compare. Pretty trick.
REW (V5.40 beta) by @JohnPM can make loudspeaker measurements using the Fast Subband Adaptive Filtering process, developed by Michael Tsiroulnikov @mikets42
This FSAF implementation can use noise (white, pink, brown) or a segment of a user-supplied file e.g. MUSIC (!), to measure the frequency response, as well as total distortion (harmonic + intermodulation) + noise.
Reference:
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/betahelp/help_en-GB/html/fsafmeasurement.html
Shall we test this out? Here is a picture of the setup:
Here is the...
This FSAF implementation can use noise (white, pink, brown) or a segment of a user-supplied file e.g. MUSIC (!), to measure the frequency response, as well as total distortion (harmonic + intermodulation) + noise.
Reference:
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/betahelp/help_en-GB/html/fsafmeasurement.html
Shall we test this out? Here is a picture of the setup:
Here is the...
Apparently you need a better interface than a USB microphone for it to work right. I have a Focusrite box and an old school 48V phantom powered measurement mic, which should work with the method. Details are in the REW links in the above thread.
Imagine going into a guitar store, picking up an instrument to play it - it sounds a little like you're playing it - but really you're getting an FR graph to compare. Pretty trick.
JJ - so I can measure the guitar itself through a speaker to a standard mic with REW? As opposed to measuring my guitar with speakers through a measurement mic? How is this much different? Am I missing something? Probably, please advise.
My Carvin is on back order...
My best headphone setup through my laptop is low impedance (32 Ohm): "Meze 99 Classics POWER EFFICIENT WITH ANY DEVICE due to low impedance (32 Ohm). No need for amplification".
Really like it, great sound, low distortion and great tone for listening to my YouTube video and others. Most other higher impedance headphones through my laptop of course do not have near as much power. When I use a headphone amp they do have more power, but with MUCH distortion, total horseshit, at least for the clean acoustic sound I am going for...anybody have any headphone favs out there for laptop use?
My Carvin is on back order...
My best headphone setup through my laptop is low impedance (32 Ohm): "Meze 99 Classics POWER EFFICIENT WITH ANY DEVICE due to low impedance (32 Ohm). No need for amplification".
Really like it, great sound, low distortion and great tone for listening to my YouTube video and others. Most other higher impedance headphones through my laptop of course do not have near as much power. When I use a headphone amp they do have more power, but with MUCH distortion, total horseshit, at least for the clean acoustic sound I am going for...anybody have any headphone favs out there for laptop use?
Just for fun, students using high frequency sound waves to disable drones:
https://www.wsj.com/tech/antidrone-tech-competition-college-students-4765a6ed
https://www.wsj.com/tech/antidrone-tech-competition-college-students-4765a6ed
I've been suggesting all along your thread to put some pink noise through the horns, then use REW to get a frequency response plot. I believe you've been playing this guitar amplified, driving the horns and making frequency response plots using REW. With this latest tech in REW, I believe you can do just that and it'll compute the actual FR of your horns.
1. Play the guitar, make a recording of the signal coming directly off the pickups. I'm sure there's a necessary time length of the recording that's not all that long.
2. Point REW to that file, so it can use it as the signal source for computing the frequency response.
3, Connect the sound output to the amplifier and your horn speakers
4. Connect the measurement mic to the sound input, position it 1 meter away from the horns.
Let 'er rip - it should play what you played through the horns and work to get a FR plot of your horns, by using the music you played as the test signal.
Caveats are I believe you need something like a FocusRite Scarlet to handle the signals; something to do with the sample clock being common to both audio in and out. In other words, the little USB test microphones wont work with this particular method in REW.
The ONLY reason I mention it, is that I find it fascinating you can use music to test a speaker for technical parameters like FR, instead of a sine wave or some randomized signal like pink noise. Running chords up and down the neck and recording that counts as music, so, that should work to generate a result as well, over the typical frequency bandwidth for a guitar speaker.
Just as it would using the sine sweep, but requires more steps, and USB microphones which rely on the USB clock are not suitable for FSAF measurement as the USB clock is not stable. That means, for example, UMIK-1, UMM-6 and Omnimic are not suitable for FSAF measurements.
It is possible to use a USB mic which has an internal clock source, such as UMIK-2.
You would still get the frequency response of the loudspeaker/amplifier used for playback, regardless of the instrument used to create the FSAF playback source signal.
The results are no different than using the sine sweep.
You would be able to hear how the folded horns sound different than the recorded signal, but that would apply to anything played back through them compared to a system that has flat frequency response.
I've been using Sony MD 7506 for ages, they are +3dB more sensitive than the Meze 99 (106dB/mW vs 103dB/mW):
Using a Macintosh headphone output capable of 1.25v, both head phones would have around the same level, though the 7506 is rated for up to 1000mW (one watt, ouch!) while the Meze 99 are rated for 50mW maximum input, maxing out at ~120dB using twice the power.
PC headphone output may only be .3 to .5v output, which would reduce the maximum output to around 109-112 dB.
A soundboard that can move 1/4" with finger pressure seems like it would be prone to tuning issues.
From what I recall, the upper frequency range acoustic output of your FHAG was louder than your other acoustic guitar, the more flexible/greater amplitude larger sound board could be responsible for that.
Art
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Thank you Art and JJ, very interesting...hey, I did the the sine sweep, about as far as I got.
I am in the "play guitar #1 as much as possible" mode (going very well), "build guitar #2" mode (very slow), and "marketing" mode (good start), so no going back, just not enough time, plus I have the move happening.
JJ I think what you are suggesting would be perfect for any company that might purchase my IP. It would be a great way to start "somewhat from scratch" and test the horns, and compare to what I have now, but I am very happy with my sound! Especially through good headphones...I can only wonder what headphones others are using to listen to my YouTube video, can't control that.
But now I am tempted to buy the Sony MD 7506 headphones. OK wait...could not help it...just ordered them from Amazon, I must compare!
I am in the "play guitar #1 as much as possible" mode (going very well), "build guitar #2" mode (very slow), and "marketing" mode (good start), so no going back, just not enough time, plus I have the move happening.
JJ I think what you are suggesting would be perfect for any company that might purchase my IP. It would be a great way to start "somewhat from scratch" and test the horns, and compare to what I have now, but I am very happy with my sound! Especially through good headphones...I can only wonder what headphones others are using to listen to my YouTube video, can't control that.
But now I am tempted to buy the Sony MD 7506 headphones. OK wait...could not help it...just ordered them from Amazon, I must compare!
Art - plus I have my active JBL's into my PC, they are about 100 watts, like them! But I wonder, would having a more powerful amp from the PC into the JBL's give even more power, or would that be redundant? Forgive me, I never had problems with power back in the analog days. I was out of the loop for much of the transition to digital. In some ways, I think it has not helped "big sound".