we have been waiting for many years now but finally it seems to be here, and it looks decent too, tweeter response looks better then the data sheet showed from some years ago
https://sbacoustics.com/product/7½-satori-mt19cp-8-paper/
https://sbacoustics.com/product/7½-satori-mt19cp-8-paper/
It would be interesting to see how it compares to the Seas coaxial in a sealed box for a 3-way system, as they are quite similar in price.
E0060-08/06 C18EN002/A
E0060-08/06 C18EN002/A
I just got a set of KEF R3 Metas.
Good luck to them all, but I can't see anything touching the KEF coax for a while. My goodness they are good. First 'normal sized' speakers to get micro dynamics in voice that can get anywhere near my horns.
That 'micro dynamic detail' is where alot of the emotion of music seams to come from.
I assume the satori won't have wide dispersion at the top end without a diffraction device on that tweeter? Even if it doesn't, I'll prob buy it anyway for the fun of it.
Either way, can't wait for hificompass to get hold of a set!
Good luck to them all, but I can't see anything touching the KEF coax for a while. My goodness they are good. First 'normal sized' speakers to get micro dynamics in voice that can get anywhere near my horns.
That 'micro dynamic detail' is where alot of the emotion of music seams to come from.
I assume the satori won't have wide dispersion at the top end without a diffraction device on that tweeter? Even if it doesn't, I'll prob buy it anyway for the fun of it.
Either way, can't wait for hificompass to get hold of a set!
Not bad not bad!
Better tweeter performance than the old prototype.
Good job @USXX !
This Satori could go down to meet a subwoofer.
OTOH the KEF unit is optimised as a pure midrange coax. It doesn’t go down much below 300Hz.
Is there even a market for a pure midrange coax in DIY circles?
Who wants to get in on a group buy?
Better tweeter performance than the old prototype.
Good job @USXX !
This Satori could go down to meet a subwoofer.
OTOH the KEF unit is optimised as a pure midrange coax. It doesn’t go down much below 300Hz.
Is there even a market for a pure midrange coax in DIY circles?
Who wants to get in on a group buy?
Yes,
That’s because the tweeter is loaded by the midwoofer cone, like in a waveguide.
If one crosses the mid to the tweeter around ~2.2KHz the directivity will be matched.
A well designed coaxial have all much of the benefits of waveguided tweeters, but also coincidentally located with the mid.
Anyhow, It’s an improvement from the prototype-
If cone material is the king; then surely geometry is queen eh? @5th element
That’s because the tweeter is loaded by the midwoofer cone, like in a waveguide.
If one crosses the mid to the tweeter around ~2.2KHz the directivity will be matched.
A well designed coaxial have all much of the benefits of waveguided tweeters, but also coincidentally located with the mid.
Anyhow, It’s an improvement from the prototype-
If cone material is the king; then surely geometry is queen eh? @5th element
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Can someone explain to me why this coax looks "pretty decent"?
Because I simply don't see any objective evidence? Unless people just have very different standards.
To me it comes across as yet another coax that is just meh at best. Just a tweeter slapped into a non optimized for coax standard woofer.
KEF seems to be one of the few who gets it. They actually do get an incredible bumb and dip free response and performance.
Because I simply don't see any objective evidence? Unless people just have very different standards.
To me it comes across as yet another coax that is just meh at best. Just a tweeter slapped into a non optimized for coax standard woofer.
KEF seems to be one of the few who gets it. They actually do get an incredible bumb and dip free response and performance.
@b_force
Oh, be nice!
I think he said decent.
I said not bad.
Here's the competition from SEAS:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/seas-excel-c18en002/a-e0060-6.5-coaxial-each/
Just as pretty (ugly). Twice as expensive.
From SICA:
https://sica.it/prodotto/6-5-c-1-5-cp/
--> No demodulation ring in midwoofer
KEF
unobtainium
Genelec
unobtainium
Coaxials/waveguides sound best with overtoe (ie. more toe in that on axis, such that the axes of the driver cross in front of the listener), so the on-axis dip probably isn't as bad as it looks.
Oh, be nice!
I think he said decent.
I said not bad.
Here's the competition from SEAS:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/seas-excel-c18en002/a-e0060-6.5-coaxial-each/
Just as pretty (ugly). Twice as expensive.
From SICA:
https://sica.it/prodotto/6-5-c-1-5-cp/
KEF
unobtainium
Genelec
unobtainium
Coaxials/waveguides sound best with overtoe (ie. more toe in that on axis, such that the axes of the driver cross in front of the listener), so the on-axis dip probably isn't as bad as it looks.
And cone creates lot of Doppler distortion for tweeter if played down to subwoofer range with big cone amplitude.
Here we go again.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ncentric-coaxial-drivers.399692/#post-7361024
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For high fidelity at standard levels one wouldn't run a coaxial down to a subwoofer (or run as a 2 way). The problem is that at low frequencies the midrange cone moves a lot disturbing the action as a waveguide for the tweeter plus the modulation of high and low. The result is elevated levels of distortion. 300 Hz is too low for the 5" KEF coaxial which is effectively a 4" due to the hole in the middle plus this issue reducing what is a reasonable cone deflection compared to a non-coaxial equivalent. I would suggest 500 Hz is a more reasonable compromise for high fidelity operation.
A larger cone reduces the deflection and hence the distortion but obviously increases the issues crossing to the tweeter. 7.5" for a midrange is a bit on the large size but for a simple arrangement (i.e. not KEF, Genelec or the like) a bit large is likely to be preferable to conventional size.
The designed listening position for a coaxial with a simple tweeter arrangement is not on-axis because of the significant diffraction effects but more like 15-20 degrees off-axis. The plot in the OP shows 30 degrees off-axis which is a bit large but aligned with speakers normal to the front wall. Some plots at angles between 0 and 30 degrees would be useful. The 30 degrees plot is encouraging but not enough for confidence. Interpolation is a bit misleading because the on-axis variation is irrelevant if one sits 15-20 degrees off-axis given the radiation area on-axis is tiny and won't influence the reflected sound in any noticeable way.
The SEAS off-axis plot is smoother than the one in the OP without any issues below 10 kHz (issues above are less audible in use) although one would need to see a few more angles to be confident of a genuine high performance. Unfortunately the price asked for these drivers is becoming too much which is a pity but I guess that's the way pricing for top of the range products with attractive marketing features now works. When the features attracting high margins were exotic materials for tweeter cones it was largely irrelevant but it has sadly spread to more relevant products. Can someone in the know confirm or deny that the profits on the Scan-Speak beryllium tweeter from 15 years ago kicked the whole thing off? Is the Ellipticor series proving to be a step too far?
These coaxial attemps tell us a lot about the current state of driver design: emphasis on fancy cone materials, shiny baskets and showpiece magnet assemblies, than focus on really relevant issues such as the tweeter dome profile, tweeter surround profile, throat profile (those crucial first 5 mm/0.2" of the tweeter-waveguide interface) and a smooth termination of the waveguide/cone at the other end.
For some reason the various lectures given by Jack Oclee Brown and the various waveguide designs by Augerpro seem largely unnoticed.
For some reason the various lectures given by Jack Oclee Brown and the various waveguide designs by Augerpro seem largely unnoticed.