10NDA610 110db distortion - No Preamp Clipping!
The mic pre was a little hot in the previous graphs. This was done with 110db pink noise at one meter. Of course individual tones are much louder during tests. Was reaching around 121db during the sweep. Not sure what the mic is contributing. Wish I had an Earthworks or the like.
I think this is a fair showing for the power levels invloved. You'll only hit these levels for very brief moments domestically when showing off or your own curiosity.
Not going to have time this weekend for off axis charts but it's about -6db @ 2khz 45 degrees off axis. If you want perfect polars with an AMT it's probably not going to happen...but it will sound killer.
The mic pre was a little hot in the previous graphs. This was done with 110db pink noise at one meter. Of course individual tones are much louder during tests. Was reaching around 121db during the sweep. Not sure what the mic is contributing. Wish I had an Earthworks or the like.
I think this is a fair showing for the power levels invloved. You'll only hit these levels for very brief moments domestically when showing off or your own curiosity.
Not going to have time this weekend for off axis charts but it's about -6db @ 2khz 45 degrees off axis. If you want perfect polars with an AMT it's probably not going to happen...but it will sound killer.
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I've tried this with 2x PHL 1130 and a TPL150H but the C-C spacing really wanted a low crossover and IMO the Beyma's don't sound good crossed below 2Khz
Maybe you'd get better results with the hornless version but it's still quite large.
for the distortion measurements you can set the power level and simply move the microphone further from the speaker.
If the measurements are not being corrupted by the microphone, the relative distortion levels will be the same for both measurements. If the mic is compressing, then with the mic further away, the distortion products will fall off more rapidly than the fundamental signal measurements.
If the measurements are not being corrupted by the microphone, the relative distortion levels will be the same for both measurements. If the mic is compressing, then with the mic further away, the distortion products will fall off more rapidly than the fundamental signal measurements.
Thank you for posting this! I had not seen it.
Troels mentions 98dB sensitivity in practical terms vs 102dB quoted by 18 Sound. Still good for me.
He was shooting for a xo in the region of 1.3 to 1.5kHz, maybe because of dispersion concerns? I am shooting for 2kHz so who knows...
Somewhat concerning is the 5dB drop in frequency response below 700Hz, which was a function of the baffle size - needs to be modeled to be better understood and accounted for.
But the great learning for me is the AIC (Active Impedance Control) feature o this driver that when active makes the impedance very flat: a valuable feature when used in an active setup with a SET (a constant voltage source). Now 18 Sound has my attention more than before. Will need to explore further.
Thanks again for posting this!
BTW, have you managed to make dispersion measurements?
Didn't get around to it before returning. I was going to save for a BMS 4599HE but looks like I'm going to end up with a pair of 10NDA610's as they can go a bit lower.
I wouldn't be too concerned with the dip in power response with a 2khz crossover. If you really want better dispersion, consider slot loading it and filling the volume between the cone and baffle.
I wouldn't be too concerned with the dip in power response with a 2khz crossover. If you really want better dispersion, consider slot loading it and filling the volume between the cone and baffle.
Aren't you concerned by the freq. curve of this driver ? 😕
In a 3-way, at the first XO frequency of let's say 200Hz it delivers 92dB SPL (less below, more above) .
Then you get to the 2nd xo freq. for example 2kHz and its pushing 104dB on-axis and 97dB off-axis. 😱
Even the off-axis 97dB is +5 more compared to the 1st xover frequency and when we take into account the on-axis response, ca. 104dB is an insane amount of SPL compared to the 1st crossover region.
+3 dB sensitivity rise means 1/2 amp power need for the same SPL. Now think about what happens with loudness at constant amp power and +12dB difference in the upper region. 😱
Without massive EQ/DSP this driver would be an instant no-go for me due to non-flat amplitude response. Add bad off-axis directivity to this and absolutely no-go (except in a horn and PA application, no hi-fi goals).
I'd recommend Faital's drivers instead if you're willing to come down from insane SPL regions to "very high" ones 🙂 and get better sound and better ability for system integration. You can still connect 2 in parallel to get +6dB gain.. 🙄
..yeah, not a great design. 😱
For one thing, if you are going to use a super-tweeter - then defintly use a large format driver (..and I do like the super tweeter inclusion). For less than a $100 US more per loudspeaker he could have purchased the ND1460A, and the XT1464 horn you can purchase for about the same as the XT1086. With that you can "push" the frequency quite a bit lower and have a better resulting sound.
Midrange? Definitly the 12 NDA520, it's got lower Mms relative to its Sd. It also has much more useable bandwidth (spl near the average).
Frequency Response - drivervault
..the "problem" with 12" or 15" as midranges is more of a conceptual hurdle (provided the measurements "stack-up" where needed).
The bass and super-tweeter though..
Wouldn't even bother with a super-tweeter. Regardless the 10NDA610 sounded mighty fine during testing.
-you'd be missing-out on a fair bit of space and "air" then. (..dispersion matters.)
Note: It might have sounded as if I thought the 10NDA610 isn't a good driver - that's not the case. Instead I think anyone can get better overall results with a LOT less effort with the slightly larger 12" version (Troels included) - though of course certain limitations do apply toward the top-end of its usable response.
Note: It might have sounded as if I thought the 10NDA610 isn't a good driver - that's not the case. Instead I think anyone can get better overall results with a LOT less effort with the slightly larger 12" version (Troels included) - though of course certain limitations do apply toward the top-end of its usable response.
Are you looking at Troels' measurements? From there, no, I don't see a huge issue.
FWIW, mine is a 4-way design and the midrange would work about 400 - 2000Hz. In that range I don't see an issue in the frequency response, although dispersion or a 10" at 2kHz is indeed a concern.
Where are you seeing off-axis data? I'm interested!
My system has digital XO and room correction so DSP is inherent; not an issue.
Using 2x 6" is an option but center-to-center to the tweeter increases and lobbing concerns grow too.
BTW, you might be confusing sensitivity and SPL capability? I don't need very high, let alone insane, SPL levels. Sensitivity is a different matter as the plan is for SET to drive these.
Midrange 10NDA610 with 2nd order low-pass only (active 15" woofer below) and Beyma TPL200 with 2nd order high-pass. Still in the development phase, dimensions of the front baffle makes big difference. Commercial product, so no further information, sorry.
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can you at least give some info on the amp for the 15" I am having no joy finding one for my project using a faital 15
Not decided yet but Class D for sure, plus DSP.
There are many good offerings from Hypex, Pascal, ICEPower, ...
There are many good offerings from Hypex, Pascal, ICEPower, ...
FWIW, I'm using Hypex UcD400Rx for midbass. Subwoofers are powered. 400W per channel is way overkill for midbass, in my opinion. My midbass is now going from 80 to 350Hz in my current speakers with 2x6" per side, although probably going to go somewhere 60 to 400Hz when I move to 2x10" per side in sealed box.
I've been very happy with the UcD modules. If anything, I would like something that consumes less power when idle so I would keep them on all the time. They take about 15W each and in this day and age I would rather not have 30W on all week to use mostly on weekends. Note is a very minor issue: I turn them on on Fri AM and turn off on Sun night...easy 🙂
Also FWIW, my plan is to use TPL150H and the midrange each driven by a SET, probably a 2A3.
SETs are a constant voltage source and as such benefit greatly from: a) a constant impedance load, b) a high impedance load.
The TPL is basically a constant 5 ohm load. Not high impedance, but constant and at 102 dB/W it looks like a good match for the 2A3.
The 10NDA610 is also high sensitivity, and from Troels' measurements the impedance is pretty constant once the AIC is engaged. Seems to be rather constant around 5.5 to 6 ohm from 400Hz to over 5kHz. This is a great finding for me.
Also note the super low Le at 0.06 mH. I believe this is with AIC engaged. Very low Le is a characteristic I've noticed correlates rather highly with drivers said to perform well as midranges. People who heard this driver speak highly of it.
The one big question mark in my mind s dispersion at 2kHz.
And of course the ultimate big question mark is would I like the sound signature? For this there is only one way to answer 🙂
SETs are a constant voltage source and as such benefit greatly from: a) a constant impedance load, b) a high impedance load.
The TPL is basically a constant 5 ohm load. Not high impedance, but constant and at 102 dB/W it looks like a good match for the 2A3.
The 10NDA610 is also high sensitivity, and from Troels' measurements the impedance is pretty constant once the AIC is engaged. Seems to be rather constant around 5.5 to 6 ohm from 400Hz to over 5kHz. This is a great finding for me.
Also note the super low Le at 0.06 mH. I believe this is with AIC engaged. Very low Le is a characteristic I've noticed correlates rather highly with drivers said to perform well as midranges. People who heard this driver speak highly of it.
The one big question mark in my mind s dispersion at 2kHz.
And of course the ultimate big question mark is would I like the sound signature? For this there is only one way to answer 🙂
Mmmm...what does "fine" mean to you? How do you know, BTW? Have you seen dispersion curves you can point me to?
Dispersion at 2kHz out of a 10" has to be pushing it. Even with 8" it depends on the specific driver.