Feedback on 18Sound 10NDA610 as midrange

Anyone has heard/measured these and can provide some info?

The intended application is from 400/500Hz to about 2kHz, under a TPL-150H, and over dual 10" Beymas.

On paper it looks good: 102+ dB/W from 500 to 2kHz, super low Le of 0.06 mH, smooth impedance curve with a minimum of 6.5 ohm.

Unfortunately there is little published data and scarce comments online that I found. I wish there was some distortion data, and I'm a bit concerned with directivity at 2kHz. Unfortunately they don't make an 8" version, and the 6ND410 seems a bit shy in the lower end of the intended usage range.
 
For the 6ND410 there are measurements around on the web.
I think the 10NDA610 is quite good. I was interested in this one also but it is a little on the low side in terms of x-max for my application (large WTMW with 15" woofers) where I 'd like to cross at 200 Hz. It has a brother called 10NMBA520 which is a little less efficient but has more x-max. The reason why I don't use it now is because it is a little difficult to obtain. I then went for the 12nd710.

Regards

Charles
 
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I think the 10NDA610 is quite good. I was interested in this one also but it is a little on the low side in terms of x-max for my application (large WTMW with 15" woofers) where I 'd like to cross at 200 Hz.

By the time it will reach halve of it's x-max of 2.5 mm at 200 Hz your ears will be gone....
At 200 Hz it will loose quite a bit of efficiency because of it's low Qt.
It seems to be there at some 500 Hz.
Maybe more suited to drive a horn.
As a direct radiator it will start beaming at about 1600 Hz.
 

Scott L

Member
Paid Member
2008-12-27 12:32 pm
Knoxville, TN
By the time it will reach halve of it's x-max of 2.5 mm at 200 Hz your ears will be gone....
At 200 Hz it will loose quite a bit of efficiency because of it's low Qt.
It seems to be there at some 500 Hz.
Maybe more suited to drive a horn.
As a direct radiator it will start beaming at about 1600 Hz.

Agreed. Mighty heavy cone as well. This one has cone cry written all over it.
As you have stated, might be okay for a low-mid horn driver.

If I were doing what Mr. Lewinsky is attempting, I would use a very light cone/heavy magnet smaller driver and horn load it to match the DI of the TPL to be used above it.
 
Haven't used the Z10, but earlier versions of the HM210Z... sound good to me. Not particularly high sensitivity of course- the usual 89-90 db/Watt you'd expect for this kind of driver. Limited listening to a pair of Volt BM251.3 I have suggests these are very good- smooth top-end for a 10" driver, goes loud, adds another 3-4dB sensitivity to the Audax's, but doesn't go as low. Usual tradeoff.
 
By the time it will reach halve of it's x-max of 2.5 mm at 200 Hz your ears will be gone....

I don't belive that. If my estimation isn't too far off then it would be still below 115 dB(a)re20 at around 1 mm @ 200 Hz which doesn't fit a system well that is capable of almost 130 dB in the range covered by the woofers. I'd say for 400Hz crossover it would be fine but not for 200Hz. Not that I would listen long at those levels it is just that the SPL capabilities were a little unbalanced.

I don't want to see any midranges move visibly at loud volumes. Otherwise the attempts at a generously dimensioned old-fashioned monitor style speaker would be senseless.

Regards

Charles
 

Scott L

Member
Paid Member
2008-12-27 12:32 pm
Knoxville, TN
I was thinking of Audax HM210Z10 as a midrange driver from some 300 Hz up to my TPL-150 (not the ...H).
Very light cone for an 8 inch (13 gr), will not beam until some 1900 Hz and high efficiency.

Both choices are excellent, and should mate extremely well !!
(By both choices I mean the Audax AND the "non-H" )

HM210Z10 @ 97 db and much smoother than the VOLT.
 
Agreed. Mighty heavy cone as well. This one has cone cry written all over it.
As you have stated, might be okay for a low-mid horn driver.


Thank you Scott. Good point about cone weight and likely cone cry. I hadn't noticed the weight.

If I were doing what Mr. Lewinsky is attempting, I would use a very light cone/heavy magnet smaller driver and horn load it to match the DI of the TPL to be used above it.

Which kind of horn would you suggest? Any examples would be helpful.
 
Haven't used the Z10, but earlier versions of the HM210Z... sound good to me. Not particularly high sensitivity of course- the usual 89-90 db/Watt you'd expect for this kind of driver. Limited listening to a pair of Volt BM251.3 I have suggests these are very good- smooth top-end for a 10" driver, goes loud, adds another 3-4dB sensitivity to the Audax's, but doesn't go as low. Usual tradeoff.

Thank you. The HM210Z10 is also a candidate. Better directivity match since it's 8", but lowish sensitivity for what I'm looking for (think SETs). I looked into Volt but either they don't get to 2kHz nicely or they have rather rough impedance curves.

BTW, B&C 8PE21 is also a good 8" candidate in my eyes. So is PHL 2540, and AE TD8M although at lower sensitivity.
 
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Scott L

Member
Paid Member
2008-12-27 12:32 pm
Knoxville, TN
Thank you Scott. Good point about cone weight and likely cone cry. I hadn't noticed the weight.



Which kind of horn would you suggest? Any examples would be helpful.

I'm afraid there are none available, commercially (that I am aware of).

You might want to check out the Volvotreter site. It contains quite a bit of useful information, as well as the Edgar Mid range horn article in his "downloads" section.

Volvotreter Homepage
 
Thank you. The HM210Z10 is also a candidate. Better directivity match since it's 8", but lowish sensitivity for what I'm looking for (think SETs). I looked into Volt but either they don't get to 2kHz nicely or they have rather rough impedance curves.

Mind you: HM210Z10 + TPL150 will give you 97 dB sensitivity from 300 Hz upwards (and I am very much thinking SET's or PP DHT's...).
 
I'm afraid there are none available, commercially (that I am aware of).

You might want to check out the Volvotreter site. It contains quite a bit of useful information, as well as the Edgar Mid range horn article in his "downloads" section.

Volvotreter Homepage

No need for the horns to be commercially available. I'm happy to build them.

The Edgar Horn you refer to at the Volvotreter website is the 300Hz Tractrix horn made for Dynaudio D-54?

My one concern when I look at these horns is center-to-center spacing with a TPL-150H. I have to pick a poison I guess.
 
Mind you: HM210Z10 + TPL150 will give you 97 dB sensitivity from 300 Hz upwards (and I am very much thinking SET's or PP DHT's...).

Correct. But the 150H is 102 dB/W and ideally I can use a 45 SET, or 2A3, so would love to get to 100 dB/W on the midrange.

I haven't dropped the idea of the HM210, though. It's just that I found the 10NDA610 and at first sight was looking great, including 100+ sensitivity.
 

Scott L

Member
Paid Member
2008-12-27 12:32 pm
Knoxville, TN
No need for the horns to be commercially available. I'm happy to build them.

The Edgar Horn you refer to at the Volvotreter website is the 300Hz Tractrix horn made for Dynaudio D-54?

My one concern when I look at these horns is center-to-center spacing with a TPL-150H. I have to pick a poison I guess.

You would have to adapt the horn size to fit which ever driver you choose.
Yes, I am afraid everything in audio is a set of compromises and trade offs.
With respect to driver spacing, what will be your listening distance from the
speakers ? More than 12 feet, and preferably as much as 15, is recommended for listening to horn based speakers.
 

manninen

Member
2014-07-16 7:49 pm
try 10NDA610 and tell us how does it work
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With respect to driver spacing, what will be your listening distance from the
speakers ? More than 12 feet, and preferably as much as 15, is recommended for listening to horn based speakers.

I'm at 10 feet now. Could stretch another feet maybe, but not two.

Does the minimum distance to allow integration depend on the type of horn used? Integrating a TPL-H (22cm high) with an Edgar-type midrange (about 25cm high) should take less distance than integrating to a Le'Cleach type (spelling?:confused:)
 
If not a Synergy concept, then stick the 150H in the mouth of a large horn and use digital delay. At 1 kHz, no point source driver by itself can match a ribbon's pace, rhythm and timing [PRaT] AFAIK, IME.

GM

I like it because I hadn't considered this alternative before. To get a better sense of what you are thinking, which type of horn would you suggest for the 400 - 2000 Hz range? And what kind of driver on it? Are you thinking a compression driver or a 4 to 6" driver?

And I imagine building some sort of egg-like shell to place on the back of the TPL to mitigate the diffraction it will create. Diffraction at the edge of the TPL will likely be significant, right? It's a large tweeter :eek:

Digital delay is already part of the system, so fortunately a non-issue in my case.