Right. 😀
I can't honestly say I agree with the notion that thicker wire is automatically 'better' in every possible case: if it were, then we'd all be using 3in thick copper buss-bars and have done with it. Yes; if you don't want your wire to audibly affect the behaviour of amplifier & speaker then you want to ensure it has sufficient gauge to render voltage drop insignificant. But if you actually do want the wire to act as a filter, for e.g. if you need some series resistance, then this 'bigger is better' notion is inapplicable. We seem to have said this before -it's about system matching.
I reckon aluminium should be OK in some cases, particularly when some resistance is desired, although it certainly would need more care in the handling.
I can't honestly say I agree with the notion that thicker wire is automatically 'better' in every possible case: if it were, then we'd all be using 3in thick copper buss-bars and have done with it. Yes; if you don't want your wire to audibly affect the behaviour of amplifier & speaker then you want to ensure it has sufficient gauge to render voltage drop insignificant. But if you actually do want the wire to act as a filter, for e.g. if you need some series resistance, then this 'bigger is better' notion is inapplicable. We seem to have said this before -it's about system matching.
I reckon aluminium should be OK in some cases, particularly when some resistance is desired, although it certainly would need more care in the handling.
Hi,
This thread is quite interesting, particularly with the emphasis on Amp, Speaker and Cable Systems
Over the years I've settled on a "design" or combination of "Multi Contact" cables that seems to suit a number of different speaker, amp combinations including those tricky horn compression drivers.
It's an assortment of multistrand wire cables - for treble it's the Flexi E/HK 0.5 (0.5sq mm) - for the mids it's Flexi E/HKk1.0 (1 sq mm) and for base it's the Flexi E 2.5 (2.5 sq mm) - it's plain PVC insulation, too. [Not cheap either, even tho it's industrial supply company, not HiFi].
This is seen best on their website "Multi Contact USA"
I'm using one of Nelsons F3 amps and have found that the wire suits the amp rather well and seems to ignore the "vagaries" of some very different speakers that we've tried.
In the "spirit of the solid conductor" (!), I've ordered some of Denis Moorecroft's (DNM Audio, England) "Precision" solid core speaker wire - will be interesting, especially if it's like his excellent T-Network and Slit Foil caps.
Regards ...
This thread is quite interesting, particularly with the emphasis on Amp, Speaker and Cable Systems
Over the years I've settled on a "design" or combination of "Multi Contact" cables that seems to suit a number of different speaker, amp combinations including those tricky horn compression drivers.
It's an assortment of multistrand wire cables - for treble it's the Flexi E/HK 0.5 (0.5sq mm) - for the mids it's Flexi E/HKk1.0 (1 sq mm) and for base it's the Flexi E 2.5 (2.5 sq mm) - it's plain PVC insulation, too. [Not cheap either, even tho it's industrial supply company, not HiFi].
This is seen best on their website "Multi Contact USA"
I'm using one of Nelsons F3 amps and have found that the wire suits the amp rather well and seems to ignore the "vagaries" of some very different speakers that we've tried.
In the "spirit of the solid conductor" (!), I've ordered some of Denis Moorecroft's (DNM Audio, England) "Precision" solid core speaker wire - will be interesting, especially if it's like his excellent T-Network and Slit Foil caps.
Regards ...
hermanv said:
Ah, ok.. I was confused by the sudden appearance of the issue of correlation between audibility and the physical parameters..
hermanv said:
Not a problem. My intent was only to provide the correct equations and to dispel some incorrect notions. You'd be surprised at the level of expertise of some people who also provide erroneous "facts" about guage vs inductance.
hermanv said:
Quite honestly, I happen to agree with many aspects of his stance, as well as having agreement with many of yours.
I believe that if it is audible, it should be measureable. I also happen to have a wee little bit of experience in test, so am quite cognizant of how dismally inadequate current SOTA really is with respect to measurement of low impedance systems with high bandwidth.
hermanv said:
Actually, a real discussion doesn't require any measurements at all. Proof of something would indeed require measure..but that was not part of the discussion.
hermanv said:
Agreed. I have no problems with other's favorites. But I will still interject accuracy in equations if I see error in such.... nature of the beast..😀
Cheers, John
As an audiophile I had reached that unfortunate state where I could hear sound quality improvement in equipment I simply could not afford.
Speakers in particular represented a serious financial challenge. Accordingly, a good friend and I decided we would build our own speakers. We are both EE's and he previously owned a small commercial speaker business. This business provided some fairly expensive tools not generally possessed by the average DIYer (specifically the LEAP design tools and the MLSSA measurement tools).
It is now 9 years and about $4,000 each later and the design is done. Given the time and cost one could expect a pretty decent speaker and I believe we have done exactly that. Several posts about the design are in the loudspeakers threads, things about best drivers, midranges or crossover components. Most posts are by my friend under the name Curmudgeon.
As the speakers got better, both my friend and I found we needed to upgrade our home systems to take full advantage of the improvements offered by our speaker design. In the end both of us replaced every component in our respective systems.
What is relevant to this thread is the degree of learning how to listen that took place during development. At each stage of testing we would listen to a variety of pre-selected music to see if a given change made things better or worse. If we disagreed we tended to discard the impression and when we agreed we accepted it only after reaching a verbal agreement as to exactly why it was better.
The point of this longish post is that in my case I learned a lot about how to listen and much of that was due to the need to explain what I thought I was hearing. This listening ability is something we all posses and it can be trained to be more discerning and better able to specify why some sound is better or worse. We are born with the basic tool set, but extended use improves the skill just like any other physical or mental pursuit.
So a definition of favorite wire will depend on the system or equipment, the listening room, the taste and the experience of the listener.
Speakers in particular represented a serious financial challenge. Accordingly, a good friend and I decided we would build our own speakers. We are both EE's and he previously owned a small commercial speaker business. This business provided some fairly expensive tools not generally possessed by the average DIYer (specifically the LEAP design tools and the MLSSA measurement tools).
It is now 9 years and about $4,000 each later and the design is done. Given the time and cost one could expect a pretty decent speaker and I believe we have done exactly that. Several posts about the design are in the loudspeakers threads, things about best drivers, midranges or crossover components. Most posts are by my friend under the name Curmudgeon.
As the speakers got better, both my friend and I found we needed to upgrade our home systems to take full advantage of the improvements offered by our speaker design. In the end both of us replaced every component in our respective systems.
What is relevant to this thread is the degree of learning how to listen that took place during development. At each stage of testing we would listen to a variety of pre-selected music to see if a given change made things better or worse. If we disagreed we tended to discard the impression and when we agreed we accepted it only after reaching a verbal agreement as to exactly why it was better.
The point of this longish post is that in my case I learned a lot about how to listen and much of that was due to the need to explain what I thought I was hearing. This listening ability is something we all posses and it can be trained to be more discerning and better able to specify why some sound is better or worse. We are born with the basic tool set, but extended use improves the skill just like any other physical or mental pursuit.
So a definition of favorite wire will depend on the system or equipment, the listening room, the taste and the experience of the listener.
So then...what's your favorite speaker wire?
Do you know the wire's parameters, as in measured parameters?
And most importantly, did you keep them the same length as well as match the crossovers?
John
Do you know the wire's parameters, as in measured parameters?
And most importantly, did you keep them the same length as well as match the crossovers?
John
My speaker cables and crossovers are as identical as possible.
Same length, same layout, matched parts where possible.
I bought sone fancy capacitors for the tweeters and was unable to justify buying 10 and pick the closest 2 like I did with resistors and cheaper caps when I was using them.
I love the Neutrik Speakons too. Apart from the bulk which means some thought needs to go into socket placement to allow room for the plug. Recently I found some right angle plugs at Farnell for a reasonable price which allows more options for socket placement. I may just fit a cable gland to my next cabinets and have no connector.
You do need quite thick round cables to use the speakon cable clamp effectively. I use 2 foot long 1.5mm2 4 core pvc insulated mains cable between the crossovers and the speaker cabinet.
I think the common aversion to soldering connectors in the speaker cables is nonsense. The final stages of your amplifier is full of soldered joints. One more isn't going to change anything if it's done properly.
Back to contact pressure: I recall repairing a few miltimeters some years ago with destroyed sockets. The culprit was some right angle banana plug leads which had a little screw in the back which forced the 4 fingers apart.
Has anyone used silicone insulated many (200 odd) stranded test lead wire for speaker cables?
Same length, same layout, matched parts where possible.
I bought sone fancy capacitors for the tweeters and was unable to justify buying 10 and pick the closest 2 like I did with resistors and cheaper caps when I was using them.
I love the Neutrik Speakons too. Apart from the bulk which means some thought needs to go into socket placement to allow room for the plug. Recently I found some right angle plugs at Farnell for a reasonable price which allows more options for socket placement. I may just fit a cable gland to my next cabinets and have no connector.
You do need quite thick round cables to use the speakon cable clamp effectively. I use 2 foot long 1.5mm2 4 core pvc insulated mains cable between the crossovers and the speaker cabinet.
I think the common aversion to soldering connectors in the speaker cables is nonsense. The final stages of your amplifier is full of soldered joints. One more isn't going to change anything if it's done properly.
Back to contact pressure: I recall repairing a few miltimeters some years ago with destroyed sockets. The culprit was some right angle banana plug leads which had a little screw in the back which forced the 4 fingers apart.
Has anyone used silicone insulated many (200 odd) stranded test lead wire for speaker cables?
Lets start with the wire terminations Cardas lugs, brass with Rhodium over silver plate.jneutron said:
Next, our systems are tri-wired with the crossover at the amplifier end. All the cables are the same length. For the 10" Scan Speak 25w/8565-01 woofer, a single wire each way. Cardas 9.5AWG Litz wire (with the "golden ratio" Litz wire sizes) 6 nines copper. The wire has a number of hollow Teflon tubes, see the Cardas site for details. I do not know if that golden ratio represents anything other than marketing hype.
For the mid range, an Audio Technology C-Quenze 15 H 52 unit (15 centimeter), 11.5 AWG Cardas Litz also 6 nines arranged as a flat ribbon of 3 out and 2 back interleaved. I think the equivalent gauge is about 8.5 AWG
For the tweeter which is a Scan Speak Revelator D2905/9900 we used 8 conductors number 23 AWG of 5 nines silver annealed in an oxygen free atmosphere, both the wire and the Teflon tubes are Cardas made. 8 number 23 wires is a gauge of 17 AWG out and back. A bigger gauge would probably be better but the cost quickly spirals out of control.
The total cost for wire and lugs is about $750.
For the crossover we bought 5% foil inductors where possible about 1/2 of them are silver (mid and tweet) the bigger values for the woofer are copper (wire not foil) and matched to 5%. We were unable to afford enough parts to select better than this. Capacitors were tin foil and Polypropylene for values below 30 uF. Above that they were metalized Polypropylene with one Bennic non polar electrolytic in the woofer conjugate (1,000uF paralleled with 400uF of metalized mylar Harmony or Zen caps) films were not affordable. Critical caps are 5%. All wire in the crossover was 16 AWG silver and Cardas posts were used throughout.
As you can see I am a Cardas fan, decent value, fewer frills and a good "story" as to why he made the choices he made. I also use his interconnects the Golden Presence model.
I did see a photo of someones system that used copper plumbing pipe soldered together for their speaker wire. 😀 😀
hermanv said:
I saw one of a fellow using 7/8" heliax hardline coax to feed his subs.... he was a ham with a fondness of high GHz communications and had "leftovers" 😀
I'd love to see how he got that soldered onto the driver's terminals!
It's a pain to wrangle at the best of times.
It's a pain to wrangle at the best of times.
A coupla elbows, paste flux, 50/50 solder, and a propane torch of course..😕
If you don't want to turn the amp off when you switch speakers, then of course you need to solder in a coupla 1/4 turn ball valves so the electrons don't come spraying out of the pipes..
Cheers, John
If you don't want to turn the amp off when you switch speakers, then of course you need to solder in a coupla 1/4 turn ball valves so the electrons don't come spraying out of the pipes..
Cheers, John
Using outdoor rated Cat5 with wires split up evenly for pos and neg, soldered directly to drivers and the other ends straight to amp terminals.. Sound's great to me for all of $3-4 Loonies....
Try telephone wire...
Some French telecom-engineers involved also in HIFI have taken the view that the classical ultraflexible wiring that is made of a hundred of very thin wires is the worst type, whether it is made of copper, silver or gold! They observed micro-electrical and electrostatical discharges generated by the bad surface contact between the various, almost hair-like, tiny wires.
The ideal solution would be a massive single wire (AWG16 or better, depending on length and thus max tolerable wire resistance). Since this is inconvenient in practice, the best alternative is telephone cable, which is composed of 2 to 12 or more pairs of small conductors, each conductor being individually isolated, and the whole cable being sometimes protected by a metal foil meant to reduce the influence of external electromagnetic fields. Just buy two cables per speakerbox (for + and -) and twist together the individual conductors of each cable. Some people I know also then connect the shielding (where available) to the - pole on either side of the amp or loudspeakerbox (not both sides, obviously). As a bonus, this type of cable is extremely cheap !
It is assumed a decent telecom-cable maker would use high grade / purity copper (like OFC - oxygen free copper) for manufacturing their telephone cable as it should limit losses over very long distances. However, some regions of the world are said to produce poor quality copper (limited copper resources, which require massive and quick re-re-recycling/re-re-remelting), hence the LC and other similar processes developped in the last 20 years years to improve the metal structure and purity in those regions, as I've read. In European countries, we have traditionnally good quality copper (-cable), but I've noticed that massive import and increased competition has recently brought its lot of very cheap and bad stuff (some cables sold at present for telecom and audio are even magnetic, you can test yourself with a small magnet: surprise, surprise!!!!).
I found that there is so much I can improve and adjust in a loudspeaker (which has a significant direct impact) that I'm personally not too much concerned about cable quality, beyond a reasonable minimum standard.
Some French telecom-engineers involved also in HIFI have taken the view that the classical ultraflexible wiring that is made of a hundred of very thin wires is the worst type, whether it is made of copper, silver or gold! They observed micro-electrical and electrostatical discharges generated by the bad surface contact between the various, almost hair-like, tiny wires.
The ideal solution would be a massive single wire (AWG16 or better, depending on length and thus max tolerable wire resistance). Since this is inconvenient in practice, the best alternative is telephone cable, which is composed of 2 to 12 or more pairs of small conductors, each conductor being individually isolated, and the whole cable being sometimes protected by a metal foil meant to reduce the influence of external electromagnetic fields. Just buy two cables per speakerbox (for + and -) and twist together the individual conductors of each cable. Some people I know also then connect the shielding (where available) to the - pole on either side of the amp or loudspeakerbox (not both sides, obviously). As a bonus, this type of cable is extremely cheap !
It is assumed a decent telecom-cable maker would use high grade / purity copper (like OFC - oxygen free copper) for manufacturing their telephone cable as it should limit losses over very long distances. However, some regions of the world are said to produce poor quality copper (limited copper resources, which require massive and quick re-re-recycling/re-re-remelting), hence the LC and other similar processes developped in the last 20 years years to improve the metal structure and purity in those regions, as I've read. In European countries, we have traditionnally good quality copper (-cable), but I've noticed that massive import and increased competition has recently brought its lot of very cheap and bad stuff (some cables sold at present for telecom and audio are even magnetic, you can test yourself with a small magnet: surprise, surprise!!!!).
I found that there is so much I can improve and adjust in a loudspeaker (which has a significant direct impact) that I'm personally not too much concerned about cable quality, beyond a reasonable minimum standard.
I saw one of a fellow using 7/8" heliax hardline coax to feed his subs
Did you ever get to hear such things? I've always wanted to. Seems like a near ideal cable with minimal losses. I suppose if they were well constructed and used indoors, they'd be trouble free.
Did you ever get to hear such things? I've always wanted to. Seems like a near ideal cable with minimal losses. I suppose if they were well constructed and used indoors, they'd be trouble free.
Indeed, a friend of mine used for several years big coaxial (single massive conductor) cable with double shielding and was very pleased with it on his speakers (large Proac column-type speakers, no subwoofer). It sounded great indeed but he did no demo / comparison with other cables when I visited him (we did no tweaking, just listening to newly acquired CDs from editors which were difficult to find at that time here in France: Clarity Recordings, Kirkelig Kulturverksted etc.).
This type of cable is based on the same philosophy as telephone cable; well, it's all telecom stuff, isn't it?
This type of cable is based on the same philosophy as telephone cable; well, it's all telecom stuff, isn't it?
Although both cables are built in a way to minimize EMI noise, twisted pair does it by presenting the same level of noise on both wires and using a balanced input to cancel the noise, coax is built like a shielded wire, preventing noise pick up by shielding the single ended central conductor.elac310 said:
Other specifications are different, twisted pair cable has a fairly wide range of impedance (about 120 +/-10 Ohms) and is capacitive at about 0.083 μF per mile whereas (telephony) coax has an accurate and nearly pure resistive impedance of about 52 Ohms.
Twisted pairs typically carry base band voice signals, but coax usually carries higher frequency FDM or digitally multiplexed voice signals.
dantheman said:
Nah, was just one of those sites I surfed across. Probably on qsl.net, since I remember the page taking forever to load 🙄
Hardline would be lossier than regular wire I'd think... skin depth is way deeper at 120Hz than 1.2GHz 😉
Cheers!
PaleRider said:
Hello PaleRider.
I once followed a friend to a smaller 'audiophile' audio shop.
The owner had some modified fullrange drivers and wanted us to have a listen.
It was very good sounding speakers.
One thing I noticed was the speaker wires he used.
😎 Thick solid magnet wire!
Those used to wire transformer secondary.
I guess it was like 2.0 mm2 (AWG 12) of those. One stranded.
And the + and - were not twisted together.
They lay randomly separated across the floor..
I did never ask him about his 'speaker wires'.
It was the modified speaker drivers he wanted to demonstrate.
But I never will forget this detail.
Attachments
The French engineeers are on the right track, they`re only missing one wery important issue. When using low impedance transistor amps the main enemy is resistance. Or in other words; keep the speakercables thick, short and solid for maximim dynamics.
Speakercables must be seen as a extension of the poweramps powercircuit, same as the speakers internal wiring and filter.
The old solution using copper plumbing pipes are not too wrong, at least the tubes will outplay all "high-end" cables. Thin flat foil-leaders are another result of this old legend. But since signal do not only use the outside as the legend says we need big area thick massive wires.
In my hifi-heaven DIY-system I`ve tested out what makes the optimal no more need for any uppgrades wires. I`ve ended up using 2,5mm for the tweeters, 6mm for upper mid, 2x6kv (could use 10kv here) for low mid (61/2") and 2x10kvmm for my 10" woofers. A big surprice here was the gain in replacing 8(!)x2,5mm with 4x6mm. Seems like the enter-level for real powerful bass begins at 6kvmm.
I`m running 3x2,5mm massive powercords, custom trafos w. 2,5mm in, 2x 6,5mm out on each side. Uppdimensioned amps powercircuit, no fuse or anything else to stop power. In boxes like Cd or pre it`s a remarkable dynamic gain just in replacing the intern powercord from rear wall to off/on and back to trafo with 2,5mm solid. If/when extensions are needed, make them from minimum 2,5mm solid.
For a DIY' er with the possibility to a total uppgrade including intern speakerwires, bass-coil (min. 6mm) and extern speakerwires gives a new world of dynamics and bass power.
To uppgrade resistors used in paralell I`m running several in paralell like 7x56ohm=8ohm aso. Works!
My favorite solid cable is this Swedish EKKJ that comes up to 4x10mm. No need to remove insulation, and do not twist or any other fancy stuff. Signal-halfs must be kept apart to keep 3D and avoid interference/distortion as lineup mentioned.
Here`s the place to buy the EKKJ:
https://www1.elfa.se/elfa~ex_en/b2b/start.do
Speakercables must be seen as a extension of the poweramps powercircuit, same as the speakers internal wiring and filter.
The old solution using copper plumbing pipes are not too wrong, at least the tubes will outplay all "high-end" cables. Thin flat foil-leaders are another result of this old legend. But since signal do not only use the outside as the legend says we need big area thick massive wires.
In my hifi-heaven DIY-system I`ve tested out what makes the optimal no more need for any uppgrades wires. I`ve ended up using 2,5mm for the tweeters, 6mm for upper mid, 2x6kv (could use 10kv here) for low mid (61/2") and 2x10kvmm for my 10" woofers. A big surprice here was the gain in replacing 8(!)x2,5mm with 4x6mm. Seems like the enter-level for real powerful bass begins at 6kvmm.
I`m running 3x2,5mm massive powercords, custom trafos w. 2,5mm in, 2x 6,5mm out on each side. Uppdimensioned amps powercircuit, no fuse or anything else to stop power. In boxes like Cd or pre it`s a remarkable dynamic gain just in replacing the intern powercord from rear wall to off/on and back to trafo with 2,5mm solid. If/when extensions are needed, make them from minimum 2,5mm solid.
For a DIY' er with the possibility to a total uppgrade including intern speakerwires, bass-coil (min. 6mm) and extern speakerwires gives a new world of dynamics and bass power.
To uppgrade resistors used in paralell I`m running several in paralell like 7x56ohm=8ohm aso. Works!
My favorite solid cable is this Swedish EKKJ that comes up to 4x10mm. No need to remove insulation, and do not twist or any other fancy stuff. Signal-halfs must be kept apart to keep 3D and avoid interference/distortion as lineup mentioned.
Here`s the place to buy the EKKJ:
https://www1.elfa.se/elfa~ex_en/b2b/start.do
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