Wait till you see the prices of those beauties Scott.
Let me show you what you pay for these damped micro vibrations lol;
http://www.audioacoustics.co.uk/price lists/audioacousticspr.html
Need I say more?
regards
Let me show you what you pay for these damped micro vibrations lol;
http://www.audioacoustics.co.uk/price lists/audioacousticspr.html
Need I say more?
regards
I shudder to think. My guess is that there are some out there with less discrimination than finance. No amount of audio mystery is worthy of the price of admission being asked.
I'd even hedge my single strand cotton against their stuff and bet it would come out trumps in virtually all departments apart from ease of use and when detail rerieval is a bad thing.
There's an amp price list there too under Wavac, one of the models costs £209,000 lol..
regards
Raja
I'd even hedge my single strand cotton against their stuff and bet it would come out trumps in virtually all departments apart from ease of use and when detail rerieval is a bad thing.
There's an amp price list there too under Wavac, one of the models costs £209,000 lol..
regards
Raja
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME?
I have some speaker wire that i can sell you for the same price. Its a very high end cable, just ignore the CAT 5 markings on the insulation. Shrink wrapping the cable is additional $.
ron
( i am in the wrong business)
I am not putting anybodys product down ,please.
There was once a blind test given to several "Golden Ears" in which there was a partition between the amp and the speakers. The tech had installed common RS speaker wire and just held the mega $ out to the listeners to show the next wire, the mega $ wires were never hooked up, The listeners kept saying this wire sounded better than that one and the clarity was better from this wire to that wire ect ect.
If i paid that kind of $ for a wire i certinly would say it performed better.
I have some speaker wire that i can sell you for the same price. Its a very high end cable, just ignore the CAT 5 markings on the insulation. Shrink wrapping the cable is additional $.
ron
( i am in the wrong business)
I am not putting anybodys product down ,please.
There was once a blind test given to several "Golden Ears" in which there was a partition between the amp and the speakers. The tech had installed common RS speaker wire and just held the mega $ out to the listeners to show the next wire, the mega $ wires were never hooked up, The listeners kept saying this wire sounded better than that one and the clarity was better from this wire to that wire ect ect.
If i paid that kind of $ for a wire i certinly would say it performed better.
I don't think you've got anything to appologize about Ron when it comes to putting a product down. I think many of us just don't have the gaul to go that far into pricing and marketing for something relatively simple without being hounded by our own conscience.
Some of the mid-budget stuff I understand, especially tube amps using silver output transformers and the like as the production costs are quiite high as are the costs of maintaining the products, development and staff wages etc.
But I don't cut much slack to wire, which is a relatively simple beast that has purposely been made complex to create marketing opportunities.
Actually while we're on the subject of this stuff, it reminds me of this post by Steve Eddy;
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=437017#post437017
enjoy!!
Some of the mid-budget stuff I understand, especially tube amps using silver output transformers and the like as the production costs are quiite high as are the costs of maintaining the products, development and staff wages etc.
But I don't cut much slack to wire, which is a relatively simple beast that has purposely been made complex to create marketing opportunities.
Actually while we're on the subject of this stuff, it reminds me of this post by Steve Eddy;
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=437017#post437017
enjoy!!
Thank you!
Based on logic a wire is used to transport electron energy from one point to another. Once resistance/induction is established there is little more.
I came from an aerospace background and never did i see mega $ wire used in any application. The wire had to meet the MIl spec requirements for its intended use and come from an approved supplier. ((OT)It was one of my jobs to approve the supplier. I would state approx 50% of the companies that were requesting approval were rejected.)
I still , to this day, use approved suppliers simply due to the fact of a consistant performance of a product and assurance that the quality of the product is delivered.
I will never say that an advance in technology can not occur, in any field or application. If there is established proof that a new process or chemistry performs better then so be it. However the increase in price of the new product has to be justified by the increase in performance.
ron
Based on logic a wire is used to transport electron energy from one point to another. Once resistance/induction is established there is little more.
I came from an aerospace background and never did i see mega $ wire used in any application. The wire had to meet the MIl spec requirements for its intended use and come from an approved supplier. ((OT)It was one of my jobs to approve the supplier. I would state approx 50% of the companies that were requesting approval were rejected.)
I still , to this day, use approved suppliers simply due to the fact of a consistant performance of a product and assurance that the quality of the product is delivered.
I will never say that an advance in technology can not occur, in any field or application. If there is established proof that a new process or chemistry performs better then so be it. However the increase in price of the new product has to be justified by the increase in performance.
ron
favorite speaker wire
my favorites are the ones that have enough electrons in them. When I've tried the ones with too few electrons, they sounded kinda empty or hollow, so I'll stick with the ones with enough electrons.
The ones with too many electrons sound sorta bloated or overblown, so be sure and get just the right ones...
It's a Goldielocks and the 3 Bears kinda thing, I guess.
my favorites are the ones that have enough electrons in them. When I've tried the ones with too few electrons, they sounded kinda empty or hollow, so I'll stick with the ones with enough electrons.
The ones with too many electrons sound sorta bloated or overblown, so be sure and get just the right ones...
It's a Goldielocks and the 3 Bears kinda thing, I guess.
lineup said:
1. They have taken the liberty of considering 100% as when skin depth equals radius.
2. Yes, it will most certainly. It has to, as resistance and inductance will change. Note that the level of effect as well as audibility, that I have not answered..just the generic alteration. If an effect is 5 or 6 orders of magnitude below audibility thresholds, then it isn't audible..but it is a difference electrically.
3. Good question, no answer.
lineup said:
Remember, that writeup uses the approximation equation, which falls apart with reasonable wires in the audio range. The current goes about 3 times deeper than the approximation equation would have us believe...meaning the impact is a third of what was calculated.
d1983 said:
Bingo, well stated.
John
Re: favorite speaker wire
I can ship you a batch of electrons if you wish...can't guarantee the energy distribution of course, as I'm sure they'll be at room temp by the time they get to you..
Cheers, John
auplater said:
I can ship you a batch of electrons if you wish...can't guarantee the energy distribution of course, as I'm sure they'll be at room temp by the time they get to you..
Cheers, John
😀 Amen. As GM & I generally seem to bang on about, assuming you don't want the wire to affect the components it's connecting, then so long as voltage drop is kept within reasonable levels, & you don't pull something silly with the LC parameters, it's unlikely to make a whole lot of difference, although notionally solid core should be more effective than multistrand. It's when you do want to use it to help tailor the response to requirements that you can start getting fancy. I don't have a problem with high-priced wire per-se -after all, it's only worth what people are willing to pay. However, when their advertisers put out a load of pseudo-technical babble & nonsense that cons people without much knowledge of the physics involved, I can feel my blood-pressure starting to rise.
As I'm feeling uncommon generous today, probably because I've got the dreaded lurgy, I shan't mention the name of the company in question, other than the fact that it is well known, but how well I remember a review stating that their new 'statement model' had superior bass to their previous wire. Now, given that the speakers in question were Apogee Scintillas (i.e. nightmare 1ohm load with a miserable 79db 1m/1w sensitivity), in a reasonably large room, and the new wire was roughly 8ga against the previous ~12ga, I wonder why that might be? 😉
In fairness, I suspect that there are elements involved that we have yet to fully explore. Science does progress, as you say Ron. But if there are, my money is that they are a) very subtle, and b) you'll get a hell of a lot more of an improvement by upgrading your speakers than you would in putting the same amount of money into the wire that links them to the amplifier. You can always make a fancy cable yourself, should you wish. There are plenty about. Just my take on it of course.
As I'm feeling uncommon generous today, probably because I've got the dreaded lurgy, I shan't mention the name of the company in question, other than the fact that it is well known, but how well I remember a review stating that their new 'statement model' had superior bass to their previous wire. Now, given that the speakers in question were Apogee Scintillas (i.e. nightmare 1ohm load with a miserable 79db 1m/1w sensitivity), in a reasonably large room, and the new wire was roughly 8ga against the previous ~12ga, I wonder why that might be? 😉
In fairness, I suspect that there are elements involved that we have yet to fully explore. Science does progress, as you say Ron. But if there are, my money is that they are a) very subtle, and b) you'll get a hell of a lot more of an improvement by upgrading your speakers than you would in putting the same amount of money into the wire that links them to the amplifier. You can always make a fancy cable yourself, should you wish. There are plenty about. Just my take on it of course.
REC1 said:
That's for sure, most MIL spec wire is just commercial offerings at a much higher price to both cover the exorbitant cost of certification and commensurate mark-up.
GM
Raj1 said:
I neither support not oppose the idea of mechanical "distortion", still this post ignores the fact that you need to shake the wires at somewhere around a thousand times a second.
This post does little to support or deny the controversial wire issue. There is some anecdotal evidence that there seems to be more going on than meets a simplistic explanation about wire contribution to sound quality. According to John Curl (see the Blowtorch thread), "Bybee" filters and other exotic classified means are used to enhance the signal quality in modern submarine SONAR. If you read a description of Bybee filters you might be forgiven if a certain degree of incredulity is created. Still, it appears the US Navy was convinced.
My point is that this debate has been raging for close to twenty years and I have learned that a single paragraph post, especially a simplistic one, will do little to support or deny the cable war controversy. I have no problem with people stating their opinions, it's when they claim the "facts" support their opinion that I urge some restraint or the inclusion of support data (and no, I don't mean a link to yet another opinion).
I can ship you a batch of electrons if you wish...can't guarantee the energy distribution of course, as I'm sure they'll be at room temp by the time they get to you..
🙂
Well i guess you could collect them from the outer shell of a plasma , then put them in a box and ship? Gonna need a very tiny set of tweezers though, or just send the electrons to the box using a magnetic field?
As Scott mentioned, my major gripe is the pricing of an "off the shelf" wire which probably be a very small gain that could be properly invested in other components for a much greater cost/performance ratio.
ron
I have no problem with people stating their opinions,
I truly attempt to never have an opinion.
🙂
Well i guess you could collect them from the outer shell of a plasma , then put them in a box and ship? Gonna need a very tiny set of tweezers though, or just send the electrons to the box using a magnetic field?
As Scott mentioned, my major gripe is the pricing of an "off the shelf" wire which probably be a very small gain that could be properly invested in other components for a much greater cost/performance ratio.
ron
I have no problem with people stating their opinions,
I truly attempt to never have an opinion.
hermanv said:
Why would I need to shake them that much when the marketing drivel implies that without their proprietary damping it's already happeining on cables that don't use their particular approach?
Perhaps a better way would be to hold them still somehow and see if you can hear the change?
Try both ways and tell me if you hear a difference with or without excitation of any kind. One would have thought that if micro vibrations cause an 'audible' difference, a violent movement which is likely to contain all manner of resonance at varying frequencies through the course of movement would be audible to some degree.
later
GM said:
While the product may be the exact same design, and on the same process equipment, mil spec "anything" entails more detail be paid to QA, configuration control, and screening.
The cost of increased control over all aspects of manufacture is of course, increased cost..
Cheers, John
True, this is implicit as part of the certification process, but for MIL spec projects this cost tends to be swamped by the extra documented testing, at least it was as late as '94 when I retired.
GM
GM
Raj1 said:
Because it has been stated that motor-generator effects can be heard, and that motional inductive changes as well as motional generated EMF is audible.
Of course, when the actual numbers are put in, it is apparent that for speaker cables, the effect is at minimum 4 orders of magnitude below that of two mosquito's colliding head on at full speed.
Not glib comments... actual energy numbers..I did them about 6-7 years ago at either AR or AA, don't recall.
The entire motor-generator thingy was started as a result of somebody noticing a line cord twitched during the turn on transient of an amp with a big cap bank, and the thinking was extended to that of speaker wires.. But without any analysis of the energies.
Cheers, John
hermanv said:
Hmmm..that statement said "other classified means", but bybee's are certainly not "classified"..at least not classified secret...maybe classified "not secret??
It would be easy enough to say "AA batteries and other "classified means" as well, hinting that AA batteries were "classified".
Release of classifed information is frowned upon by Uncle Sam..
If one of the prototype sonar systems passed spec and trials, and included bybee parts, it would be very difficult to remove them, as that would also require a re-qual of the system..once in, they're in for the life of the product..the sidewinder missile program was like that..they locked LM741 chips in their hybrids, and they did not accept modifications from the IC vendors.. If the chip was topologically different in any detail while even schematically the same... it was "different", not acceptable..
hermanv said:
Agreed.
Cheers, John
I have had experience with "microphonic" wire, admittedly it was in an interconnect environment. Like you I suspect that given the speaker load impedance and voltage sensitivity speaker wires are unlikely candidates for this effect. However, the marketing types imply that acoustic vibrations are a problem and need to be suppressed. So the wires need to be mechanically disturbed at frequencies equivalent to the signals they carry to prove or disprove their claims. Since wire is sort of springy, it may be that the mechanical disturbance must be harmonically related to the signal to prove or disprove the point.Raj1 said:
Again, I am not supporting their claims, I'm only trying to point out that the answer is far from simple. There is some scientific evidence to support their claims. If you charge a capacitor (2 speaker wires make a capacitor) and then mechanically change the separation between the capacitor plates, a voltage modulation is produced. (See Wimhurst machine for an extreme example of this effect) In the speaker wire case I suspect that the modulation is too small to be relevant, but they aren't completely insane to claim what they claim.
Whether or not they are opportunists or worse, crooks, is an entirely different question.
Me too. I setup 5 PA's for a public tour day at work.. When I tossed one of the mike wires (live), as it hit the floor the sound of it hitting the floor came out of the speaker. Exact duplicate.hermanv said:
Turns out, the flexure of the inner twisted pair was the issue...as the two wires moved relative to each other when the cable hit the floor, the loop area changed. That allowed the residual magnetic field of the rebar in the floor to generate voltage in the mike wire..figure 10's of gauss..we power big magnets in the area, magnetizes everything...
Given the power gain involved, the actual energy produced was small, microvolt levels and 600 ohms. 10 times 10e-6 squared/600, 100 times 10e-12/600.... 1/6 10e-12... picowatts....
Contrast that with 50 volts and 8 ohms, 300 watts..
Way way way too small. And yet people still talk about this??
hermanv said:
Excellent example. It must be noted that work has to be put into the system to change the plate spacing. The same must happen with wires...work must be introduced to change the spacing.
The spl is just waaaaay to small to make a diff. I agree with the science in general, but when a vendor introduces the concept to support claims and neglects to mention that the effect is 14 orders of magnitude (hey, I can even be 6 orders of magnitude off in the calcs, it makes no difference) below the primary signal...oops...
Cheers, John
ps...The typical impedance of a speaker wire is well above nominal load, on the order of 100 to 200 ohms. This defines the energy that is stored within both the capacitance as well as the inductance of the wires. For speakers with wires, the inductance is the dominant storage mechanism. If the wire spacing is altered, the inductance will change...increasing as the spacing.
If one were to calculate the storage within the wire, then make an arbitrary spacing change, then re-calculate..then one would know the amount of energy change caused.
Spacing changes beyond a coupla millionths of an inch is not gonna happen at audio frequencies...the forces of the current are just too small..
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