Geez, Dave, it was only because you said you didn't have any others ready. 😀
Tell you what I'm willing to do: now that you have another set prepared, I will trade you back your own special personal ones for the new ones. Of course, since the new ones are experimental, and since I'll have to go through the hassle of dismounting the current ones, I assume you'd want to refund some of the cost...
Regards.
Aengus
It's OK Aengus. I knew exactly what was going to happen when i said you could try those 🙂
Has to be looked at as an opportunity for more R&D...
dave
Has to be looked at as an opportunity for more R&D...
dave
Hi anybody
just to share with you, what happend to my w4-1320:
brown: some 3mm thick felt
gray: 0,5mm felt
the most effectful thing was the small piece inside, between basket and membrane. The highs are smoother now, not so sharp und the speaker produces a deeper image.
try it, it's easy to do .
just to share with you, what happend to my w4-1320:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
brown: some 3mm thick felt
gray: 0,5mm felt
the most effectful thing was the small piece inside, between basket and membrane. The highs are smoother now, not so sharp und the speaker produces a deeper image.
try it, it's easy to do .
Dave, I'm considering the Pioneer A11EC80,
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-010
which I know you have some experience with. I think it was mentioned as a possibility above the Calhoun.
Do you have any treatment/photos of that driver?
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-010
which I know you have some experience with. I think it was mentioned as a possibility above the Calhoun.
Do you have any treatment/photos of that driver?
Ed LaFontaine said:
I've never actually seen one of those (other than in pictures). A favorite of gychang. Has been used as a budget substitute in many an FE127/FE126 box with surprisingly positive reported results. Why not give it a go as a sub for the FR/WR125?
I'd approach it as i do any other paper cone driver... puzzlekoat, EnABL, ductseal (if you want to go whole hog, i'll trade you a "jar" of SR500 for some clear pollyscale (just about thru my 1st bottle, and it isn't available in Canada) & a phase plug if it fit one of the standard sizes (1" diameter VC, means either a B200 or FE16x plug should be workable, but in the spirit of keeping the price down, something found might work better -- i have a box of neo-corks that do a passable job for this size VC).
dave
Sounds like a deal. I'll need your address. 😉 Do you use/have/need an oblique pen holder?
I can make the phase plugs.
Ed LaFontaine said:
OK, i'll send a PM. And i'll have to find a plastic jar for the SR-500 (i'll send sufficient to play with a few drivers). You'll get some neocorks to try too... that won't cost anything more.
dave
Re: Acoustic Magic
Hey Bud,
In an earlier post (#46) you referred to a paint additive and it's acoustic properties. Well, take a look at this and see what you think:
Insulating Paint
Hey Bud,
In an earlier post (#46) you referred to a paint additive and it's acoustic properties. Well, take a look at this and see what you think:
Insulating Paint
Next time you try this stuff Dave, Try removing the paint from the basket areas to be covered..with a dremel, possibly..and use a decent soft (not super hard) resin.
Look to the Tri-Art catalouge for possibilities in making your own 'mixtures'. There is not, by any estimation anywhere, a better selection of quality products all in one spot. Tri-art is the 'creme de la creme' of the entire art industry.
I've already said too much, as two items I mentioned ONCE..years ago on this forum...have no ended up in some $50k speakers. They tout those things, those two items...in every audio rag advert they run. As you might imagine, it Kinda PO's -me at the least. If one spits it out, they don't own it anymore. That's fine. I said what I said. However, one must minimalize the personal blood loss to some degree. Even though I don't mind sharing with the DIY crew, I rightfully get PO'd when folks take it to commercial level on my intellectual back.
Look to the Tri-Art catalouge for possibilities in making your own 'mixtures'. There is not, by any estimation anywhere, a better selection of quality products all in one spot. Tri-art is the 'creme de la creme' of the entire art industry.
I've already said too much, as two items I mentioned ONCE..years ago on this forum...have no ended up in some $50k speakers. They tout those things, those two items...in every audio rag advert they run. As you might imagine, it Kinda PO's -me at the least. If one spits it out, they don't own it anymore. That's fine. I said what I said. However, one must minimalize the personal blood loss to some degree. Even though I don't mind sharing with the DIY crew, I rightfully get PO'd when folks take it to commercial level on my intellectual back.
KBK said:
I'm quite happy with what i'm using (Silent Running SR500). Purpose designed to damp resonances, that it stiffens was a big bonus. It does not dry super hard, is latex, and relatively easy to work with. Sandable and paintable sticks fine to the painted surface. I still hav e a lot of experimentation to do with it.
But i am always on ther lookout for new materials. Thanx.
dave
***Please keep in mind that what you are about to read is ONLY my opinion and not meant to offend anyone, hence no need or want for a flame war to start. Thank you.***
I read through this entire thread and still can't get into all of these different mods and "tricks". I just can't see how any stock driver basket is going to ring and resonate loud enough to overcome the sound actually coming from the driver itself.
It has been my experience over the years that once a driver is properly mounted to a sufficient baffle, basket stiffness is greatly improved and basket resonance is drastically reduced. The baffle that the driver is mounted to just increased the "stock" thickness of the basket mounting surface to over a 1/2" - 1", sometimes even as thick as 3". This baffle is now also absorbing and squelching the majority of basket resonance, which I feel eliminates 99% of the mods/tricks mentioned in this thread.
Now I'm not saying all of this is snake oil and that it doesn't work or improve things. I'm sure it does to a point, but I just can't imagine it being enough to make any noticeable difference by ear. I'm sure you can "see" the improvements with a computer and accelerometer attached to various parts of the basket. I imagine it would make a difference in sound if the driver is not mounted at all and just sitting there on the desk.
And as for cone treatments, that's a different story entirely. With that, you are actually altering the cone material directly, so of course that will have a direct impact on the sound, whether it be an improvement or not. So on that note, I have nothing to say. 😉
-----------------------------------------
Something that I believe is an actual issue that can be and should be treated is sound reflections coming back through the cone from the basket legs, magnet structure and enclosure. I think this is only an issue if the basket is stamped steel (wide, flat legs) and if the magnet structure is large enough that it gets in the way of the rear wave of the driver (cast baskets with thick, narrow legs and small magnet structures shouldn't be much of a concern). And of course, the inner surfaces of the enclosure at the driver mounting location are also a major contributor to reflections feeding back through the cone.
These reflections I would treat with felt mounted to both sides of the basket legs as well as wrapped around the bottom surface of the magnet structure facing the cone. I would also treat the walls of the enclosure with felt on all four sides where the driver is mounted, extending roughly 3" - 4" above and below the edges of the driver.
I just wanted to share my thoughts with you guys on this as an opportunity for me to possibly learn something new or at least see things from a different angle.
***Please keep in mind that what you just read is ONLY my opinion and not meant to offend anyone, hence no need or want for a flame war to start. Thank you.***
I read through this entire thread and still can't get into all of these different mods and "tricks". I just can't see how any stock driver basket is going to ring and resonate loud enough to overcome the sound actually coming from the driver itself.
It has been my experience over the years that once a driver is properly mounted to a sufficient baffle, basket stiffness is greatly improved and basket resonance is drastically reduced. The baffle that the driver is mounted to just increased the "stock" thickness of the basket mounting surface to over a 1/2" - 1", sometimes even as thick as 3". This baffle is now also absorbing and squelching the majority of basket resonance, which I feel eliminates 99% of the mods/tricks mentioned in this thread.
Now I'm not saying all of this is snake oil and that it doesn't work or improve things. I'm sure it does to a point, but I just can't imagine it being enough to make any noticeable difference by ear. I'm sure you can "see" the improvements with a computer and accelerometer attached to various parts of the basket. I imagine it would make a difference in sound if the driver is not mounted at all and just sitting there on the desk.
And as for cone treatments, that's a different story entirely. With that, you are actually altering the cone material directly, so of course that will have a direct impact on the sound, whether it be an improvement or not. So on that note, I have nothing to say. 😉
-----------------------------------------
Something that I believe is an actual issue that can be and should be treated is sound reflections coming back through the cone from the basket legs, magnet structure and enclosure. I think this is only an issue if the basket is stamped steel (wide, flat legs) and if the magnet structure is large enough that it gets in the way of the rear wave of the driver (cast baskets with thick, narrow legs and small magnet structures shouldn't be much of a concern). And of course, the inner surfaces of the enclosure at the driver mounting location are also a major contributor to reflections feeding back through the cone.
These reflections I would treat with felt mounted to both sides of the basket legs as well as wrapped around the bottom surface of the magnet structure facing the cone. I would also treat the walls of the enclosure with felt on all four sides where the driver is mounted, extending roughly 3" - 4" above and below the edges of the driver.
I just wanted to share my thoughts with you guys on this as an opportunity for me to possibly learn something new or at least see things from a different angle.
***Please keep in mind that what you just read is ONLY my opinion and not meant to offend anyone, hence no need or want for a flame war to start. Thank you.***
It is as much about making the rear of the basket aerodynamic as it is stiffening/damping it.
And if the latter has no point then i assume that means that all these drivers with cast aluminum baskets are just for cosmetics? (they do i admit usually have less obstruction in the form of basket legs)
We are trying to maximize the downward dynamic range of the driver/box system. Once i get them finished and installed i let you know how much audible difference it seems to make.
Really thick baffles have their own problems -- and with these small FR drivers they can get really big.
dave
PS: and the thread title does say extreme 🙂 One might equate what some of this is to the guy that adds a nitrous injecter to the supercharged engine in his street car (or the guy with the 34" woofer in the back of his 3-door hatchback.
And if the latter has no point then i assume that means that all these drivers with cast aluminum baskets are just for cosmetics? (they do i admit usually have less obstruction in the form of basket legs)
We are trying to maximize the downward dynamic range of the driver/box system. Once i get them finished and installed i let you know how much audible difference it seems to make.
Really thick baffles have their own problems -- and with these small FR drivers they can get really big.
dave
PS: and the thread title does say extreme 🙂 One might equate what some of this is to the guy that adds a nitrous injecter to the supercharged engine in his street car (or the guy with the 34" woofer in the back of his 3-door hatchback.
planet10 said:
I completely understand about improving the basket aerodynamics of a large driver with large amounts of Xmax, but is it really beneficial to drivers with less than 1mm of excursion such as 90% of these FR drivers? They don't exactly move a lot of air and doubt they have enough "oomph" to produce any port chuffing in a typical BR design.
I would imagine the cast baskets came into play originally for large drivers that were capable of large amounts of power handling and output. I know a lot of companies talk about how their cast aluminum baskets wick the heat away from the VC's while also maintaining a nearly flex-free design so everything stays perfectly aligned throughout the safe operating range of that driver.
I assume the cast baskets trickled down to the smaller drivers for similar reasons while also keeping the entire unit weight down. Plus the fact that most cast baskets are already much better damped and stiffer than their stamped steel cousins.
Downward dynamics... This is a term I am unfamiliar with. I have tried a couple of Google searches on this before but didn't come up with anything that actually explained what it means. If you could please explain or post a link or two for me, I would certainly appreciate it. Once I know what downward dynamics means, I might start to understand why some of these mods "tricks" are desirable and useful.
When I mentioned about the really thick 3" - 4" baffles (Thiel Audio comes to mind), I was referring to larger drivers like 8" and larger. I can imagine a baffle that thick for a little 4" driver would look like a small TL on its own... a.k.a. - a tunnel
BTW, I never said "extreme" was a bad thing. I'm definitely one for overkill. 😀
As long as we are dealing with opinions, and I don't have any facts to back this up:
IMO
If properly mounted, a stamped basket does not ring. By properly mounted, I mean that the basket is solidly bolted to the baffle. If the basket is softly bolted into a thick, cushy gasket, it will ring like a bell. The gasket must be squeezed until the basket is is firm contact with the baffle.
Stamped baskets are perceived as "cheap", cast baskets are perceived as "quality". Overall, a cast basket is easier to build with adequate structural strength to keep the magnet from moving. If the legs of the basket have at least a 45* chamfer on the inside surface, there can be no reflections back into the cone. To get the required strength, a stamped basket has to have sufficient metal guage. At some point, it becomes difficult to extrude the metal and leg width must be increased. Trade off.
All stamped baskets present a flat surface to the back of the cone and will reflect. What the results are I don't know. The frequencies involved are quite high. Putting felt on the inside of the basket legs is so easy to do that doing so becomes automatic, whether it does anything or not.
I have my doubts that smoothing the aerodynamics around the magnet structure does anything useful, but I haven't investigated this. Since I use mainly the shielded Fostex and Lowther DX drivers, it is a non issue to me.
Putting a felt pad on the back of the magnet makes no sense to me. Any reflections that get to the driver are off of the cabinet back, off of the magnet, back to the back and then through the cone. There is almost always some form of damping on the back of the cabinet that will attenuate this. Same with a standing wave between the magnet and the cabinet. If someone would like to show me an FR plot that demonstrates this, I'll be happy to change my opinion.
I also have my doubts about a screw through the back of the cabinet that presses on the driver magnet. Since I don't believe that the magnet is actually moving with any decent driver and at the power levels we are inclined to use, the effect is probably to increase the structural integrity of the cabinet. This is particularly important with speakers like unbraces "Voigt" pipes made of too thin material. I have avoided this issue by strongly bracing the cabinet around the driver so that nothing is inclined to move.
As I said, IMO.
Bob
IMO
If properly mounted, a stamped basket does not ring. By properly mounted, I mean that the basket is solidly bolted to the baffle. If the basket is softly bolted into a thick, cushy gasket, it will ring like a bell. The gasket must be squeezed until the basket is is firm contact with the baffle.
Stamped baskets are perceived as "cheap", cast baskets are perceived as "quality". Overall, a cast basket is easier to build with adequate structural strength to keep the magnet from moving. If the legs of the basket have at least a 45* chamfer on the inside surface, there can be no reflections back into the cone. To get the required strength, a stamped basket has to have sufficient metal guage. At some point, it becomes difficult to extrude the metal and leg width must be increased. Trade off.
All stamped baskets present a flat surface to the back of the cone and will reflect. What the results are I don't know. The frequencies involved are quite high. Putting felt on the inside of the basket legs is so easy to do that doing so becomes automatic, whether it does anything or not.
I have my doubts that smoothing the aerodynamics around the magnet structure does anything useful, but I haven't investigated this. Since I use mainly the shielded Fostex and Lowther DX drivers, it is a non issue to me.
Putting a felt pad on the back of the magnet makes no sense to me. Any reflections that get to the driver are off of the cabinet back, off of the magnet, back to the back and then through the cone. There is almost always some form of damping on the back of the cabinet that will attenuate this. Same with a standing wave between the magnet and the cabinet. If someone would like to show me an FR plot that demonstrates this, I'll be happy to change my opinion.
I also have my doubts about a screw through the back of the cabinet that presses on the driver magnet. Since I don't believe that the magnet is actually moving with any decent driver and at the power levels we are inclined to use, the effect is probably to increase the structural integrity of the cabinet. This is particularly important with speakers like unbraces "Voigt" pipes made of too thin material. I have avoided this issue by strongly bracing the cabinet around the driver so that nothing is inclined to move.
As I said, IMO.
Bob
chops
Downward dynamics is just a way to express something almost always overlooked within a musical playback event. When a musician plays, he makes a piece of music his art by small changes in instrument dynamics internal to the notes he plays.
In the same vein, instruments themselves can be separated by subtle inflections of both time and emphasis, applied to the constituents that make up a chord. The cone treatments and these basket treatments are aimed at revealing those aspects of recorded music rather than the more usual bulk FR and decay plots.
Most folks have not explored these areas in music reproduction because until the EnABL process was let loose, most drivers were not very capable here. The most capable have historically been the FR drivers, in the before EnABL world. These were the first to be treated by folks on this forum. The individually limited bandwidth, multi driver systems, are just as good at reproducing these tiny, subtle, pieces of information, once this sort of extreme care of cone, basket, baffle and back wave has been applied.
You will not find these comments in an orderly or scholarly format yet. This is a new thing, happening on this forum, for the first time in a public information sense.
Bud
Downward dynamics is just a way to express something almost always overlooked within a musical playback event. When a musician plays, he makes a piece of music his art by small changes in instrument dynamics internal to the notes he plays.
In the same vein, instruments themselves can be separated by subtle inflections of both time and emphasis, applied to the constituents that make up a chord. The cone treatments and these basket treatments are aimed at revealing those aspects of recorded music rather than the more usual bulk FR and decay plots.
Most folks have not explored these areas in music reproduction because until the EnABL process was let loose, most drivers were not very capable here. The most capable have historically been the FR drivers, in the before EnABL world. These were the first to be treated by folks on this forum. The individually limited bandwidth, multi driver systems, are just as good at reproducing these tiny, subtle, pieces of information, once this sort of extreme care of cone, basket, baffle and back wave has been applied.
You will not find these comments in an orderly or scholarly format yet. This is a new thing, happening on this forum, for the first time in a public information sense.
Bud
Bob Brines said:
Bob, it seems as though we have some similar views on the matter, and I appreciate your input. 😉
BudP said:
Kind of like hearing the influence of the wood of a violin as apposed to the note the string is producing? Or like hearing the sound emanating from one's chest as they sing as apposed to the words coming out of their mouth? Things like that?
If so, that's more of what I would refer to as the inner details of the recording.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.