These seemed not much better than Hanning, but introduced more artefacts. But, Blackman-harris was the 4th favourite. Principally the Blackmans are adaptions of the Hanning.
The absolute highest accuracy was shown by Kaiser and Gauss. I have no idea why SpetraLab has such a poor implementation of the Kaiser window, and does not feature Gauss. RMAA also uses the Kaiser window.
With Kaiser i had the sharpest freqs and a noiselevel far below -200db.
Mike
The absolute highest accuracy was shown by Kaiser and Gauss. I have no idea why SpetraLab has such a poor implementation of the Kaiser window, and does not feature Gauss. RMAA also uses the Kaiser window.
With Kaiser i had the sharpest freqs and a noiselevel far below -200db.
Mike
Depends on window implementation, RMAA and CE differ quite a lot. There is a whole science on this topic, not time enough to discuss here.
Also, when analyzing sine, one should fulfil conditions of coherent sampling, i.e. number of cycles Mc within the record of M samples (Mc - prime integer number preferably) and making Fin/Fs = Mc/M
Also, when analyzing sine, one should fulfil conditions of coherent sampling, i.e. number of cycles Mc within the record of M samples (Mc - prime integer number preferably) and making Fin/Fs = Mc/M
Hello ! 🙂
First I'd like to say thanks for sharing this Symasym amplifier that seems to be GREAT. I'm anxious to hear this amp singing, but I need some help 😀
I read 34 pages of this thread starting from it's begin, and I found DestroyerX asking you, MikeB, for a 250W RMS @ 8 Solution, and you didn't designed it because it can be potential dangerous (lethal). I just need 150W @ Ohms, I'll drive these speakers:
http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/pdf/descarga.php?pdf=10BR60.pdf
with
http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/pdf/descarga.php?pdf=T2010.pdf
The woofer RMS power is 100W RMS, and it's program power (musical power?) is 200W RMS, so I think that an amp with 150W RMS is sufficient to avoid clipping and distortions, and use all the speaker potential.
I saw a schematic that Symasym is working with 48+48v and have 125W @ 8Ohms of power output, should it be enough ?
Does anybody here have built a more powerful version of symasym ?
I was thinking in bridge two TDA7293 to drive this speaker system, should be enough, but after see so many positive feedback of this amplifier, I really want to try, and it will be the first time that a build a Solid State powerful like this 😀
I don't want to disturb here, asking things that already have been discussed many times here, so please warn me if I'm doing it 😉
Congratulations for the amplifier !
Speacially thanks to MikeB and DestroyerX 🙂
Regards,
Fernando
First I'd like to say thanks for sharing this Symasym amplifier that seems to be GREAT. I'm anxious to hear this amp singing, but I need some help 😀
I read 34 pages of this thread starting from it's begin, and I found DestroyerX asking you, MikeB, for a 250W RMS @ 8 Solution, and you didn't designed it because it can be potential dangerous (lethal). I just need 150W @ Ohms, I'll drive these speakers:
http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/pdf/descarga.php?pdf=10BR60.pdf
with
http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/pdf/descarga.php?pdf=T2010.pdf
The woofer RMS power is 100W RMS, and it's program power (musical power?) is 200W RMS, so I think that an amp with 150W RMS is sufficient to avoid clipping and distortions, and use all the speaker potential.
I saw a schematic that Symasym is working with 48+48v and have 125W @ 8Ohms of power output, should it be enough ?
Does anybody here have built a more powerful version of symasym ?
I was thinking in bridge two TDA7293 to drive this speaker system, should be enough, but after see so many positive feedback of this amplifier, I really want to try, and it will be the first time that a build a Solid State powerful like this 😀
I don't want to disturb here, asking things that already have been discussed many times here, so please warn me if I'm doing it 😉
Congratulations for the amplifier !
Speacially thanks to MikeB and DestroyerX 🙂
Regards,
Fernando
PMA said:
Possible that i used my own implementation...
making Fin/Fs = Mc/M ??? Not many frequencies left ?
FFT sadly dictates the window size to be a power of 2, plus beeing bound to Fs of 44.1/48/96/192 khz makes it difficult to fit both criterias.
That's why the windowing is necessary, this way you get clean fft plot of any frequencies.
-_nando-_ said:
I looked at these pdfs, you will NEVER need 150watts to drive these. The woofer has efficiency of 91.5db
Also the tweeter is limited to 12watts. Or is this for a disco ?My speakers have eff of ~90db, and i am not really able to push symasym into clipping without dangering my ears.
Typically, max excursion of the woofer will limit possible power.
The 48v version i posted was never finished and is likely to blow if tried.
Mike
Oh 🙁 I'm sad about the notice of the 48v version 
It will be used in halls with lots of people talking (and / or screaming). It will have a mix use, I'll use it in my house (15W should be more than enough), partyes (not so big, but in a big hall) and in music apresentations...
In music apresentations, the extra power will only help, because guitar + voice will not make the woofer reach it's maximum excursion, but generally these places are really noisy because of the people. More adequate would be PA thing, but I hate the way that it sounds, so hard and cold, and to me it make a big diference when I'm playing my classical nylon guitar and singing. 😉
Is there anyway to push the Symasym to at least 100W ?
Thank you Mike !!
Regards,
Fernando
It will be used in halls with lots of people talking (and / or screaming). It will have a mix use, I'll use it in my house (15W should be more than enough), partyes (not so big, but in a big hall) and in music apresentations...
In music apresentations, the extra power will only help, because guitar + voice will not make the woofer reach it's maximum excursion, but generally these places are really noisy because of the people. More adequate would be PA thing, but I hate the way that it sounds, so hard and cold, and to me it make a big diference when I'm playing my classical nylon guitar and singing. 😉
Is there anyway to push the Symasym to at least 100W ?
Thank you Mike !!
Regards,
Fernando
Mike,
I do not think we need to explain those simplicities why windowing is necessary, sounds like elementary school.
BTW, try the 1102.5Hz tone. You will loose your 15kHz spectral lines.
I do not think we need to explain those simplicities why windowing is necessary, sounds like elementary school.
BTW, try the 1102.5Hz tone. You will loose your 15kHz spectral lines.
Hi Fernando
I posted a response to one of your questions in the other thread. You should understand that right now, the Symasym will not be able to put out those power levels.
Build the little fella for home. You don't need the high resolution of a Symasym in your hall gigs. If you can wait, a larger version may possibly come. It may take a while.
Another thought. Bi amp. Symasym for top. Just losing the crossover about doubles your effective power.
-Chris
I posted a response to one of your questions in the other thread. You should understand that right now, the Symasym will not be able to put out those power levels.
Build the little fella for home. You don't need the high resolution of a Symasym in your hall gigs. If you can wait, a larger version may possibly come. It may take a while.
Another thought. Bi amp. Symasym for top. Just losing the crossover about doubles your effective power.
-Chris
Hi Chris !
The speakers will be self powered, so I need the amplifier module inside it.
Take a look at the other thread, I think the bridge of two symasym would be the solution
If a more power version of symasym comes, will be so nice !
I opened a thread to have sugestions of 150W @ 8 Ohms power amp, and DestroyerX suggested me a version of Symasym with increased power.
Thanks Chris!
Regards,
Fernando
The speakers will be self powered, so I need the amplifier module inside it.
Take a look at the other thread, I think the bridge of two symasym would be the solution
If a more power version of symasym comes, will be so nice !
I opened a thread to have sugestions of 150W @ 8 Ohms power amp, and DestroyerX suggested me a version of Symasym with increased power.
Thanks Chris!
Regards,
Fernando
Hi Fernando,
Well, then consider using an active crossover. At that point you may be fine for power. Use bridging as a last resort.
-Chris
Well, then consider using an active crossover. At that point you may be fine for power. Use bridging as a last resort.
-Chris
PMA said:
Yes, i'm aware that you're completely familiar with that. I was just in a perfect mood to babble. 😀
I'll try, but the 2 peaks (15/17khz) are unlikely to go away, i have them already without any signal applied.
Fernando, i guess Symasym is not the best amp for PA, it does not even feature short circuit protection. It is intended for homeuse.
For big audiences where the amp is permanently at high power, you really should have a PA-amp, featuring all kind of safety, overheating/overloading shutdown etc. A single short to the outputs will finish a symasym in milliseconds. If you're lucky, a fuse blows, but it's more likely that the whole outputstage poofs.
May i suggest that you might build an unchanged symasym for homeuse and look for something else used as PA-amp ?
Mike
-_nando-_ said:Oh 🙁 I'm sad about the notice of the 48v version
It will be used in halls with lots of people talking (and / or screaming). It will have a mix use, I'll use it in my house (15W should be more than enough), partyes (not so big, but in a big hall) and in music apresentations...
In music apresentations, the extra power will only help, because guitar + voice will not make the woofer reach it's maximum excursion, but generally these places are really noisy because of the people. More adequate would be PA thing, but I hate the way that it sounds, so hard and cold, and to me it make a big diference when I'm playing my classical nylon guitar and singing. 😉
Fernando
The Leach amp may be what you're looking for.
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/lowtim/
I built one, it's lovely.
P.A. ? Never !! Hahahahah !
Maybe that "Simple Killer AMP" or two TDAs7293 bridged.
I think that I'll end up with Symasym, due the high speaker efficience, maybe with a double output stage to reduce the power dissipation of each output transistor, and with:
http://sound.westhost.com/project111.htm
What you think ? Should do the job...
To double the output stage (not necessary, but it should be "war proof"), all I have to do is parallel more one pair of 3201/1302 right?
The leach amp is too expensive
Thanks !!
Regards,
Fernando
Maybe that "Simple Killer AMP" or two TDAs7293 bridged.
I think that I'll end up with Symasym, due the high speaker efficience, maybe with a double output stage to reduce the power dissipation of each output transistor, and with:
http://sound.westhost.com/project111.htm
What you think ? Should do the job...
To double the output stage (not necessary, but it should be "war proof"), all I have to do is parallel more one pair of 3201/1302 right?
The leach amp is too expensive
Thanks !!
Regards,
Fernando
Hello Bremen
I'm just curious, how do you rate the Leach amplifier in terms of Hi-fidelity?
I remember years ago I built The tiger amplifier from Prof. Leach and
to be honest with you it didn't impressd me whatsoever. Now that I
built every conceivable hifi amplifier I have my reservations about the quality of the schemtics I find on the net.
Besides the Symasym that didn't impress me at the very beginning
(That was the experimental version), Mike made a few modifications
that gave the actual rich tonal effect to his amplifier. I built it in two
different versions and am really happy with the results.
Actually I consider this amplifier one of the best (if not the best) amps I built.
Now I'm looking for something more porwerful, about 150 watts per
channel capable of driving my beautiful speakers in a very tiny room
(it's a joke, now), the speakers are good enough but a very powerful amplifier would call the attention to the neighbours and I don't want that.
However, a powerful amplifer, no more than 150 Watts, would
give all the headroom I want to listen to it at low levels without
distortion. That's why I'm asking about the Leach qualities.
I can see on the Leach board are transistors that seem to be
obsolete, the round cases as the 2N3053. Are they replaceble?
In any case, if you don't mind I would like to know more about it.
Thanks
I'm just curious, how do you rate the Leach amplifier in terms of Hi-fidelity?
I remember years ago I built The tiger amplifier from Prof. Leach and
to be honest with you it didn't impressd me whatsoever. Now that I
built every conceivable hifi amplifier I have my reservations about the quality of the schemtics I find on the net.
Besides the Symasym that didn't impress me at the very beginning
(That was the experimental version), Mike made a few modifications
that gave the actual rich tonal effect to his amplifier. I built it in two
different versions and am really happy with the results.
Actually I consider this amplifier one of the best (if not the best) amps I built.
Now I'm looking for something more porwerful, about 150 watts per
channel capable of driving my beautiful speakers in a very tiny room
(it's a joke, now), the speakers are good enough but a very powerful amplifier would call the attention to the neighbours and I don't want that.
However, a powerful amplifer, no more than 150 Watts, would
give all the headroom I want to listen to it at low levels without
distortion. That's why I'm asking about the Leach qualities.
I can see on the Leach board are transistors that seem to be
obsolete, the round cases as the 2N3053. Are they replaceble?
In any case, if you don't mind I would like to know more about it.
Thanks
Fernando, as your speakers are 8ohm, there is absolutely no need to double up the output devices. But to double them up, you double the 1.2ohms, the 0.22ohms and the bjts of course.
Chipamp + PA ? 
sorry...
The SKA is quite powerful.
John, i remember that first version... Did not have the 330pf in the vas.
Mike
Chipamp + PA ?
sorry...The SKA is quite powerful.
John, i remember that first version... Did not have the 330pf in the vas.
Mike
Hehehehe !! Laugh !!
But that chipamp can deliver 150W 😀
Have you ever seen the STK4050 ? 200W RMS @ 8 Ohms + - 87V
But you didn't get the point, it looks like a PA, but is far from PA ! 😀
What is the "SKA" ?
Regards,
Fernando
But that chipamp can deliver 150W 😀
Have you ever seen the STK4050 ? 200W RMS @ 8 Ohms + - 87V
But you didn't get the point, it looks like a PA, but is far from PA ! 😀
What is the "SKA" ?
Regards,
Fernando
I am actually buying the pieces to buy the symsam 5 but I just found out about the Leach amp while browsing the forum. carlos, who i am sure has tried both, could you tell me the difference in the sound?
By that I do not mean if one "sounds better" than the other, but simply the differences in the "color" of the sound reproduction (I know the symsam produces an 2nd harmonic wich could be a plus in some cases)
By that I do not mean if one "sounds better" than the other, but simply the differences in the "color" of the sound reproduction (I know the symsam produces an 2nd harmonic wich could be a plus in some cases)
-_nando-_ said:
One more reason it is not fit for PA use.
Huge chip, but you'll need to parallel a few to hook it up to PA equipment.
I suppose you have a very ampfriendly PA system, how unusual.
I'm dreaming of a class A SymAsym with 6 ancient output devices and BS170 entry.
Masta...i ensure you that Symassym can eat Leach Amplifier in the breakfast
Easy and laughing!..... i am talking about audio quality....less perceived distortion and bass precision.... as also brigth and clear high frequency tones..... rain sounds as rain!...bells sounds as bells.... the metals are perfect and voices present and detailed.
But related power...Leach will eat Symassym, laughing and rolling into the floor.
Depending your needs, your choice can be one or other...both are optimum amplifiers...each one in their own sector of qualities.
This is a subjective opinion....and not precise, as i do not have Leach anymore to check it again using A to B testing...i am referencing myself related what i perceived listening Leach 15 monthes ago....so...it is better that someone that can made a new A to B, blind test, and double testing, with many evaluators, under controled sittuations... to inform us the result.
I would not be surprised if the testing result arrive to us different, as audio opinions and evaluations have differences inside my close group of friends too.
Those things..quality evaluation need some care.... because even Leach and Symassym can sound very bad....this will depend of the speaker quality....the environment as room acoustic.
For sure..... Symassym will make you happy.
regards,
Carlos
Easy and laughing!..... i am talking about audio quality....less perceived distortion and bass precision.... as also brigth and clear high frequency tones..... rain sounds as rain!...bells sounds as bells.... the metals are perfect and voices present and detailed.
But related power...Leach will eat Symassym, laughing and rolling into the floor.
Depending your needs, your choice can be one or other...both are optimum amplifiers...each one in their own sector of qualities.
This is a subjective opinion....and not precise, as i do not have Leach anymore to check it again using A to B testing...i am referencing myself related what i perceived listening Leach 15 monthes ago....so...it is better that someone that can made a new A to B, blind test, and double testing, with many evaluators, under controled sittuations... to inform us the result.
I would not be surprised if the testing result arrive to us different, as audio opinions and evaluations have differences inside my close group of friends too.
Those things..quality evaluation need some care.... because even Leach and Symassym can sound very bad....this will depend of the speaker quality....the environment as room acoustic.
For sure..... Symassym will make you happy.
regards,
Carlos