I once had to fire an engineer from my team. He was technically competent, and he was a motivated worker. But he was argumentative to the point of damaging the team moral and cohesiveness. He argued with everyone about everything. He was not professional, he interpreted technical disagreement as a personal insult. He also would not accept a team decision which he disagreed with. I finally decided that his positive contributions were more than offset by his negative influence due to chaos, disruption, and animosity he brought out in the other team members. I had to let him go.
This thread reminds me of the work environment in the weeks that led up to that painful decision. I am not thinking of any one person, but the whole thread.
This thread reminds me of the work environment in the weeks that led up to that painful decision. I am not thinking of any one person, but the whole thread.
Period. Good reflection, Jim!
I think we all must agree that anyone is welcome here. There are some rules to attend. And we all better be not only respectful, but also trying to help. Which can be hard in the case your respect is running down the drain… I think I fail at that myself in threads like this, don’t bother pointing me to that…
Oh, and there is such thing as a personal message…
I think we all must agree that anyone is welcome here. There are some rules to attend. And we all better be not only respectful, but also trying to help. Which can be hard in the case your respect is running down the drain… I think I fail at that myself in threads like this, don’t bother pointing me to that…
Oh, and there is such thing as a personal message…
I agree with classicalfan on this, even just building a kit with a flatpack is diy. Or modifiying an existing speaker. But i prefer to design myself as that is half of the fun for me.
And a lot of designs are also based on other designs, basicly variations of the same theme. So nobody but they pioneers invented the wheel, and the rest just prefected it step by step by copying and adjusting... A few well known names did more with studying and documenting the math behind it, but most designers are not (including myself)
And a lot of designs are also based on other designs, basicly variations of the same theme. So nobody but they pioneers invented the wheel, and the rest just prefected it step by step by copying and adjusting... A few well known names did more with studying and documenting the math behind it, but most designers are not (including myself)
This all goes back to your Post #193 where you said that some of us aren't really DIY speaker builders with this comment:
"Not really, that's just assembling a kit of parts."
I took that as a slight and a significant insult. Whether you intended it as an insult or not, that is certainly the way it came across.
It has an air of superiority to it. As though the rest of us are just a bunch of numbskulls because we don't actually do the speaker design ourselves.
And it is what has cause me to continue calling you out on it.
I wouldn't risk anywhere near that amount on something unknown.
There are thousands of second-hand loudspeakers out there that you can buy and if you don't like them, sell for little, or no loss. If you don't like your diy speakers, you'll lose quite a large percentage when you sell them on.
Until now, many among us have opined whether and why we would spend so much on DIY speakers but, unfortunately, there has been no mention / listing of the advantages of the big $$$ DIY speakers by its proponents. It would be nice to know of any significant advantages that the higher-priced DIY speakers have to offer, apart from the simple yes/no style answers.
I know I'm contributing to internet noise with this post but:
I definitely am a kit builder, and I am not able to design my own products. With that being said I have a lot of respect for people with design capabilities and I do consider them to be doing something different than what I do. I'm not insulted by being identified as a kit builder. My background isn't in electronics and that doesn't threaten my self esteem.
Also I'm proud of developing good build habits and basic knowledge and it's fun to learn. Looking forward to an entry into woodworking soon, and I'll be using someone else's speaker design.
Just happy to be here. It's fun to build and I like reading intelligent (and maybe crazy) people explore and push boundaries.
I definitely am a kit builder, and I am not able to design my own products. With that being said I have a lot of respect for people with design capabilities and I do consider them to be doing something different than what I do. I'm not insulted by being identified as a kit builder. My background isn't in electronics and that doesn't threaten my self esteem.
Also I'm proud of developing good build habits and basic knowledge and it's fun to learn. Looking forward to an entry into woodworking soon, and I'll be using someone else's speaker design.
Just happy to be here. It's fun to build and I like reading intelligent (and maybe crazy) people explore and push boundaries.
Since you started this noise we'll allow it this time ;0.
I'm just about the only person that listens to my system which means as long as I enjoy what the system sounds like I'm happy. If someone thinks what I do is DIY or not doesn't matter to me either. A dollar amount is not a reflection of how good things will sound. It's a price.
It sounds like you want to build. You are in Chicago according to your info which means you are in an active DIY community. If you haven't looked for local DIY groups you should.
I am, and I do -- but I am in the middle of changing careers and I have two kids under 5 so my DIY time is real but inconsistent. I have a few individual relationships that I keep up with around the hobby.
I appreciate the nudge. Maybe in a year or two I can carve out the space to maintain group membership!
Well that depends. For example are the drivers matched pairs?? That can be critical for performance at any price level.
What is the quality of the cabinets?? CNC?? Are they MDF, void free plywood, are the panels veneered?? Bracing?? Do you have to finish yourself??
What level of parts are used in the crossover?? Are they matched tolerance wise if need be?? Are they 20% or 5%??
How much technical support is available if you run into problems?? Is this available email only of can pick up the phone??
These are all examples of relevant questions all of which could increase the kits cost. In my mind this is all questions that should be readily asked before you purchase especially something as expensive as the 10K number at the start of the thread.
To be clear I am not a kit builder or a proponent of supper expensive kits. Some of these question a novice 1st time builder may not know to ask. I am sure there are many more.
Rob 🙂
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@newvirus A long time ago, when my ears were young, I had the possibility to directly compare around $10k DIY speakers to speakers half that price. Both designed by the same (well-respected) designer. My conclusions: overexpensive drivers don’t pay off. And big systems in small rooms s overkill for most of us.
Spending $10k on DIY speakers to me only is viable if they are part of an acoustically carefully designed room and quite high sound pressure levels are required. Think of flush mounting, multisub approach and optimalizing things by measuring. I’m quite convinced that this leads to better results than the average rich Joe that spends $100k on speakers to put them in his designer interior. Assisted by a no-know sales rep from the audiophile dealer up town.
Spending $10k on DIY speakers to me only is viable if they are part of an acoustically carefully designed room and quite high sound pressure levels are required. Think of flush mounting, multisub approach and optimalizing things by measuring. I’m quite convinced that this leads to better results than the average rich Joe that spends $100k on speakers to put them in his designer interior. Assisted by a no-know sales rep from the audiophile dealer up town.
OK. I wonder if I may digress for a moment? We have all been defining and redefining what DIY might mean regarding speakers. Can I ask a question, what is our goal? Mine (at this juncture) is to achieve the best sound for a reasonable outlay. (they must be expected to be better than either Mezzo Utopias's or NS1000M's) also (I'm a cheapskate by nature, but cannot resist a bargain!). So, before reinventing the wheel, what are peoples thoughts on making a Kef Blade/Muon clone type thing by using the KEF LS50's and just adding either a sub, or Bass or low mid and bass in a separate box? The LS50's are ruler flat (though not very efficient) but have their own cabinet etc. Crossover duties could be either off the shelf of designed to suit with mods to the original Kef XO to suit. This must have been done before surely?? Is this really DIY or am I talking heresy?
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-meta-loudspeakerThanks to all.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-meta-loudspeakerThanks to all.
Everyone would have a different goal, and I actually enjoy DIY itself as a hobby. Every time I build something, it teaches me something new, so that I can understand audio equipments a little better than before. So, even if the result is not as good as I expected, I usually do not regret what I have done. Whole DIY process is fun and educating, but the story does not end here.
Look at a big picture. We can't have (buy or build) a perfect speaker because it only exists in our dream. Speaker is all about the preference at the end of the day. Only we can do is realizing what can be compromised or what is preferred, but it is not a simple thing to do. For me, DIY has been helping me to understand what I really prefer. The most difficult part of this process has alway been trying to remove any kind of bias from my head. It is still difficult keeping in mind that my preference should not really correlate with brand name, price and measurement, but I'm pretty sure DIY has trained me a lot about this. Yes, we can do this just buying commercial products and comparing them, but I'm sure DIY has given me much more insightful experiences than that.
So, short answer would be my goal is knowing myself and my preference. 🙂
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Very doable. Part of the blade is the push-push woofers very close to the midTweeter, i would consider loosing the box the driver comes in, or start with one of the coaxes that is less likely to cause trepidation if you toss the boxes.
dave
dave
Audiophilia is as far removed from a team work as possible. It's a selfish, solitary, self indulging activity and the team if there is any only serves as a tool for ones hedonistic pleasure. One continue to build boxes (motivation for the activity is secondary, money, conviction, greed)) to scratch ones pleasure zones with new stimuli. When you replicate someone else's idea you're not equal to the originator of the idea yet you argue like a child that you are and you're demanding a participation prize and an acceptance. At the end it doesn't matter really in the context of DIY audio but in a wider context it does matter quite a lot. A teams leader who steals ideas of the team members and present them as his own work won't get far although it's not an uncommon thing
Dear all,
Its nice to see that thread still boils a bit- there is nothing worng with argumented HOT discusion IF any of the oponents opens up and let something in. If we do not open your mind to acept something diferent and outlandish we will stay there where we areat the monent- no progress for actual individual.
I can only share my own findings which is not statics and unifinished. I never tried to live alone ,closed and locked up with my opinion about my own knowleadge or what things looks like to me. Comunicated with other designers, lot of audiophiles, I also have hobby to measure and evaluate listening rooms( 100+ at the moment) to have some aproximations what to expect.
This is what I have learn so far- electrical>>acoustic transducers technologies are very ancient and FAR from ideal. I mean all of them starting from dynamic voice coil desigs ending to plasma. There basicaly no significant change***
I agree that anyone WILL design amazing speakers when/if good drivers comes out. I may ask everal manufacturers to build drivers to my specs -not perfect but reasonably good (Fs 1Hz, frequency response +-1db 10hz- 18kHz@ without enclosure , mms 0.1g , SD 1mm2, linear and non linear dicortions <0.01% , integral omnipolar dispersion on all frequency range)
untill waiting those drivers we must face some reality.
1)audiophiles are very small amount of population, 100x times less than videophiles. So human resourses are trown up to more massese orineted science implementaiton like electronic vison products . just comare first woofers and first television to current ones to see whats have improoved by high margin an watis so so. there is very litle possibility that someone throw resources to audio.this leads us to..
2)natural and smart thinking - try to cheat human ear ( mixing variuos HUGHE discortions elements) on some aspect to believe he is listening to live performance. that all. if some of us deny any of those two things they will end in their own believings for having /or building best sound. up to the point that you can dig up in to your house concrete to build non folded 20 meter horns - because you JUST like some aspects of its performance AND forgiving its sins.
Another thing to consider is human hearing . we have not so good microphones (ears) but we have very adaptive DSP (Brain hearing interpretaton) just stuff you ears with light cushion and listen music. for 5 hours. notice frst minutes feeling and after 5 hours notice how now you are feeling of how you hear. we get used to what we have. our DSP adjusts and how unsurpsisingly.. others things/devices doesn’t sound so nice.
P.S sorry for typos, I write fast, never read what i have wrote. Hope you can understand . Looking forward for more posts (as thread lsot its primary goal long time ago-jus tliek other zillion threads.
Its nice to see that thread still boils a bit- there is nothing worng with argumented HOT discusion IF any of the oponents opens up and let something in. If we do not open your mind to acept something diferent and outlandish we will stay there where we areat the monent- no progress for actual individual.
I can only share my own findings which is not statics and unifinished. I never tried to live alone ,closed and locked up with my opinion about my own knowleadge or what things looks like to me. Comunicated with other designers, lot of audiophiles, I also have hobby to measure and evaluate listening rooms( 100+ at the moment) to have some aproximations what to expect.
This is what I have learn so far- electrical>>acoustic transducers technologies are very ancient and FAR from ideal. I mean all of them starting from dynamic voice coil desigs ending to plasma. There basicaly no significant change***
I agree that anyone WILL design amazing speakers when/if good drivers comes out. I may ask everal manufacturers to build drivers to my specs -not perfect but reasonably good (Fs 1Hz, frequency response +-1db 10hz- 18kHz@ without enclosure , mms 0.1g , SD 1mm2, linear and non linear dicortions <0.01% , integral omnipolar dispersion on all frequency range)
untill waiting those drivers we must face some reality.
1)audiophiles are very small amount of population, 100x times less than videophiles. So human resourses are trown up to more massese orineted science implementaiton like electronic vison products . just comare first woofers and first television to current ones to see whats have improoved by high margin an watis so so. there is very litle possibility that someone throw resources to audio.this leads us to..
2)natural and smart thinking - try to cheat human ear ( mixing variuos HUGHE discortions elements) on some aspect to believe he is listening to live performance. that all. if some of us deny any of those two things they will end in their own believings for having /or building best sound. up to the point that you can dig up in to your house concrete to build non folded 20 meter horns - because you JUST like some aspects of its performance AND forgiving its sins.
Another thing to consider is human hearing . we have not so good microphones (ears) but we have very adaptive DSP (Brain hearing interpretaton) just stuff you ears with light cushion and listen music. for 5 hours. notice frst minutes feeling and after 5 hours notice how now you are feeling of how you hear. we get used to what we have. our DSP adjusts and how unsurpsisingly.. others things/devices doesn’t sound so nice.
- Everybody in this topics who said that expensive comercial speakers is scam are actualy right. Indeed one manufacturers tries to cheat customers ears , other manufacturers tries to cheat buyers as a whole(to each his own. and all this is normal for us, human beings. we are like our speakers- far from ideal)
- what is not that good its to belive in science looking with magnifyng glasses on. and this is where DIY speakers are best at. they tries to see fly in the room doesnt not noticing elephant.
- Practical science is not perfect (as its unfinished). Neither of it. Take what ever science medicine , take acoustical engineering. Smart guys use what its available (at current science level) learn how to interpretate and maximise its usefulness for population.
- *** (to optimists to enjoy)- there was some noticeable progress 25-30 years ago in simple dynamic tweetersdesigns , lower mass achieved by automatic assembly like ,glue dosage and materials tyoe and shape change- making them lighter more eficient, more uniform in high frequencies directivity.
P.S sorry for typos, I write fast, never read what i have wrote. Hope you can understand . Looking forward for more posts (as thread lsot its primary goal long time ago-jus tliek other zillion threads.
One of the most important part about audiophile life is a confidence, and if the price tag brings the confidence and happiness to the end user, it's a good speaker for him. Yeah, it's scammy, but high price tag is not too different from 0.000001% THD catalog spec in this regard. Science can also be scammy in audio business. Anything can. They are just trying to convince their target customers.
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Thanks Dave.
Though they (even second hand) are a bit more expensive still, I was considering a setup where the later curved type (as I understood that this reduced possible side reflections) LS50 was on it's side . This gives a cabinet width of something like 12", (not a big box by any means) so that either 10" woofers on the front, or as you said isobaric (unless I am mistaken) side firing placements can be used. (Even larger drivers could be used in this latter case). At the moment I can't see a downside to either of these options. (Ignorance is bliss!). This seems to me to give a very adaptable design, and if all else fails, the bass units could be turned into subs for AV duty. I'll give it more thought.
Thanks to all.