I never had time to wrote about this sensitive issue and nearly forgot, but recently one forue member asked for speaker enclosure help. I gave quick look at drawing and found same issues.
in the past( in 2012 or so) I have expierence some strange DIY speaker designs (quite exenive ones ,costing 10KEUR+ in parts) from well known website.I would not want disclose that website, as this not some kind of actual critics, just more generalized outcomes.
Speaker costing more than 10KEUR and targeted to 70KEUR comercial brand speaker copy had very expensive in parts but quite strange design which leaded to very medciore sound. Actualy so medciore that a simple small reasonably priced(4000eur) standmount speaker outperformed it even in bass departament, not speaking to soundstage and all that audiophile stuff. I started to look if I made errors assembling speakers or some of the drivers are defected. however all was fine. I then sent email to designer, asking some specific questions regarding stranage internal volumes and some stange xover design desisions. shortly after this designer apologized and “ ultimate best sound project” were took out of website. I wonder how much people tried this ultimate project trying to “save money”? I have stumbled on more DIY projects with such outcomes , but this was most memorable. the drivers ,enclosure and xover parts quality was best of what i have ever seen. and i have seen a lot. when i open Focal Utopia speakers to see what inside it looked like cheap chinesse electronic market speakers comparing to this. B&W and even Magico Q crossovers looks "cheap".
I am not against DIY speakers, it fun , entertnaining and good performance can be achieved. I like them very much. However when we speak about high end level of performance DIY cant touch good comercial brands. And price performance ratio is much worse. Funny that most of DIY designs claims better or same sound for much lesss money. Reality hits hard on that when someone unbiased (no intention to either of objects) compares good brand speakers with DIY side by side. I believe one of the reason is versatility of brand spekers- they are tried/fine tuned in many room with many electronic by whole crew. while DIY speker fine tuned by(usualy) one person in one room.
my advise would be always have some well know brand speakers which you like in the same price range to compare with DIY speaker.
in the past( in 2012 or so) I have expierence some strange DIY speaker designs (quite exenive ones ,costing 10KEUR+ in parts) from well known website.I would not want disclose that website, as this not some kind of actual critics, just more generalized outcomes.
Speaker costing more than 10KEUR and targeted to 70KEUR comercial brand speaker copy had very expensive in parts but quite strange design which leaded to very medciore sound. Actualy so medciore that a simple small reasonably priced(4000eur) standmount speaker outperformed it even in bass departament, not speaking to soundstage and all that audiophile stuff. I started to look if I made errors assembling speakers or some of the drivers are defected. however all was fine. I then sent email to designer, asking some specific questions regarding stranage internal volumes and some stange xover design desisions. shortly after this designer apologized and “ ultimate best sound project” were took out of website. I wonder how much people tried this ultimate project trying to “save money”? I have stumbled on more DIY projects with such outcomes , but this was most memorable. the drivers ,enclosure and xover parts quality was best of what i have ever seen. and i have seen a lot. when i open Focal Utopia speakers to see what inside it looked like cheap chinesse electronic market speakers comparing to this. B&W and even Magico Q crossovers looks "cheap".
I am not against DIY speakers, it fun , entertnaining and good performance can be achieved. I like them very much. However when we speak about high end level of performance DIY cant touch good comercial brands. And price performance ratio is much worse. Funny that most of DIY designs claims better or same sound for much lesss money. Reality hits hard on that when someone unbiased (no intention to either of objects) compares good brand speakers with DIY side by side. I believe one of the reason is versatility of brand spekers- they are tried/fine tuned in many room with many electronic by whole crew. while DIY speker fine tuned by(usualy) one person in one room.
my advise would be always have some well know brand speakers which you like in the same price range to compare with DIY speaker.
The trap might be that said speakers does not comply with the different listening environments. The use of passive crossovers also contributes with limits to the speakers. Making a well designed cabinet together with premium drivers, electronic xo, DSP (ala Dirac) and room treatments (if spouse allowed) you do not have to be married to those limits . Another problem is that a DIY-head is likely to get a trauma if a branded speaker appeared in the living room.
Loudspeakers design by Willy Sand
Loudspeakers design by Willy Sand
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Seems like i have reached a similar to yours and perhaps unpopular here, conclusion.
There are some exceptions, such as diy designs based on well documented and simple commercial designs like single driver horns, Altec-JBL clones, Tannoy, etc.
But let's not forget that absolute sound quality is not so important to everyone. The fun and learning curve of measuring, designing and building more than make up for the less than stellar return on investment.
A similar argument can also be made for amps and dacs. By diying it's impossible to approximate the overall value proposition of used high end.
Still, diying is excellent in order to experience all sorts of different designs and approaches. Perhaps, if you are very lucky, you may even come across an approach that really suits your listening taste better than anything available commercially.
Also true for digital and analogue sources. And cables. Amps are about the only reasonably level field to compete but only if you are very lucky.
Thank you for pointing this out. That why you see question about diy vs commercial designs not answered here, as point here is to making and exploring, not listening the best designs.
While I can agreement that there are very few excellent designs, there are also a lot of bad designs.
Ech of my diy designs that I made I was not happy of and finally selling them. Used cheap Peerless DT 100 and Usher 9950 on the other spectrum, among others.
Advantage od DIY I find there where there are no commercial solution to what you want. E.g. 3 way speaker with low volume bas still good slam and extension with paper woofer, poly midrange and soft dome, all in reasonably small enclosure.
But when you can buy something like B&W CM8 for 800 EUR, which are sellable with no loss if you will not like them, why even to bother with DIY? Good enclosures 400 EUR for 3 way, cheap ones 300, done by yourself fully 200. So 400-600 is left for drivers, crossover, cables terminals etc. For 3 way let's count 150 EUR for crossover and needed accessories (including dampening material). So with most positive way we are 800 -200 -150 so we have 450 for 6 drivers. Two cheap tweeters like SB costs 80-100 EUR. NRX2 midrange pair another 100 EUR. So, 250 for bass. We are left with peerless hds or sb23 for bass.
On total we will spend 30 hours on everything, that is enclosure project, making enclosure, crossover work, assembly, measurements first listening sessions.
Yes I know Kii Three are made on drivers costing 20 EUR and Buchardt is suffesxull with standard SB line, but who us DIYer can spend so much time, have tools and knowledge to design such good product?
If I will add value to time spend in garage it will easily reach 1000-1200 EUR of total budget. I can get used KEF R500 for it.
So, unless HOBBY is my goal here, or very specific sound/designs, DIY is not good road.
Try to recreate Sonus Faber Cremona with new drivers and match the price. You will end up only bit less than used ones, considering much much cheaper enclosure than Sonus.
While I can agreement that there are very few excellent designs, there are also a lot of bad designs.
Ech of my diy designs that I made I was not happy of and finally selling them. Used cheap Peerless DT 100 and Usher 9950 on the other spectrum, among others.
Advantage od DIY I find there where there are no commercial solution to what you want. E.g. 3 way speaker with low volume bas still good slam and extension with paper woofer, poly midrange and soft dome, all in reasonably small enclosure.
But when you can buy something like B&W CM8 for 800 EUR, which are sellable with no loss if you will not like them, why even to bother with DIY? Good enclosures 400 EUR for 3 way, cheap ones 300, done by yourself fully 200. So 400-600 is left for drivers, crossover, cables terminals etc. For 3 way let's count 150 EUR for crossover and needed accessories (including dampening material). So with most positive way we are 800 -200 -150 so we have 450 for 6 drivers. Two cheap tweeters like SB costs 80-100 EUR. NRX2 midrange pair another 100 EUR. So, 250 for bass. We are left with peerless hds or sb23 for bass.
On total we will spend 30 hours on everything, that is enclosure project, making enclosure, crossover work, assembly, measurements first listening sessions.
Yes I know Kii Three are made on drivers costing 20 EUR and Buchardt is suffesxull with standard SB line, but who us DIYer can spend so much time, have tools and knowledge to design such good product?
If I will add value to time spend in garage it will easily reach 1000-1200 EUR of total budget. I can get used KEF R500 for it.
So, unless HOBBY is my goal here, or very specific sound/designs, DIY is not good road.
Try to recreate Sonus Faber Cremona with new drivers and match the price. You will end up only bit less than used ones, considering much much cheaper enclosure than Sonus.
Funny that you mentioned what i planned to mention as exceptions, but decided not to. This is because those designs are relied on drivers. I hard so many similar sounding compression drivers designs, which had quite diferent concepts.
I quit job 8 years ago as it disturbed my speaker stuff. since then its my primary job a 4-to 10 hours a day 4-7 days a week. I still doing DIY, but when I compare my own DIY speakers with my own non DIY projects i see hughe gap in sonic quality. Skills are the same (as person is the same) , measuring equipment is the same. The diferencies is that when I doing DIY I just buy good and expensive drivers which technicaly works nice with each other and build good box for them. then i design crossover. all this in one studio/place. it tooks 1 to 3 weeks from zero.
however when I design to reach maximum it tooks.. years. up to the point that sometimes we are making 24 diferent prototype enclosures targeting to spilt internal resonanses without internal damping,or shift that resonanse in frequency to "fix"drivers nonlinearity. simulation software dont show that. so you need actual built and measure. it could be done in 5 minutes with xover corection, but penalty is worse sound. speakers routinely are driven in multiple places, to be heard , install in very diferent positions and left to team stuff, which listen for prolonged times variuos prototypes.
i believe part of this is because psichological aspects- more responsibility for creation which will be listened by many music lovers in variuos places with variuos listenign preferences. Speakers should be special and invite dive in to the musics. And all this should not cost more than nessesary. for DIY I always thinking " what a hell its just a pair of 400eur xxxx tweeters," i heard it AB on listening panel- it beats yyyy tweeters by high margin so sound CAN NOT be bad or medciore'' so I ending up where other diyers- a very high quality parts put together. most of the times i try to convince myself that those speakers is very good. that is really funny.
I dont want start topic about my designs ,or how i work ,just rather put some info to start and encourage others to write what they feel about DIY and comercial brands.
I'm having luck to hear or own ( to job R&D duties ) many speakers from very diferent manucaturers, and i very rarely try to evaluate actual sound(what i hear in particualr setup) rather trying to "learn" what designers wanted to say ,or how they want "reach us"
ok to make it more game friendly- for example sonus faber guarneri and stradivari says - "relax and enjoy music buddy. dont worry if me or your music is not perfect, take it easy" Focal diablo and maestro utopia says " look ma, at those tricks i can do, did you hear that?!" and so on and so on. I could not imagine stradivari final fine tune in acoustic chamber like i could not imagine focal utopia final tune with glass of wine and stuffed in normal room close to sidewals. at that is absolutely awesome beauty of our hobby or work- to have diferent expectations.
>Advantage of DIY I find there where there are no commercial solution to what you want.
I think pretty much true. No one would manufacture the speakers I have and listen to. First off, most customers wouldnt know what to do with them, second, if there was a partner involved, their say would highly likely be "no-way!" (are you putting those in the living room)
>So, unless HOBBY is my goal here, or very specific sound/designs, DIY is not good road.
Like OB speakers without conventional closed enclosures...for example. Not the commercial realms favorite design.
I think pretty much true. No one would manufacture the speakers I have and listen to. First off, most customers wouldnt know what to do with them, second, if there was a partner involved, their say would highly likely be "no-way!" (are you putting those in the living room)
>So, unless HOBBY is my goal here, or very specific sound/designs, DIY is not good road.
Like OB speakers without conventional closed enclosures...for example. Not the commercial realms favorite design.
I think the challenge here is many people simply don't have the full competency to truly grasp the finer details of speaker designs and concepts. A lot of people believe, if I just use expensive drivers/crossover components I would have the perfect sounding speaker.
I think the biggest culprit is crossover design. Plugging it into X-sim and making sure it is flat is all it takes is where the mistake is. It is hard to get it to sound right. Many a time people fail to compensate for baffle step, box diffraction etc. As well as understanding nuances like avoiding driver break up and by how much or if even necessary.
There are a few things that I find helps if you want to DIY successfully.
1) Active/DSP crossover, tune it to your hearts content.
2) Avoid crossover between 500 to 5kHz. Hard to get it right. Once out of those region your ear is less sensitive and you have better chance.
3) Use WAW type designs, small full range driver with woofer.
4) Use established design if you are not exceptionally skilled in designing.
5) It is so easy to get it wrong, therefore measurements are really critical...
Oon
I think the biggest culprit is crossover design. Plugging it into X-sim and making sure it is flat is all it takes is where the mistake is. It is hard to get it to sound right. Many a time people fail to compensate for baffle step, box diffraction etc. As well as understanding nuances like avoiding driver break up and by how much or if even necessary.
There are a few things that I find helps if you want to DIY successfully.
1) Active/DSP crossover, tune it to your hearts content.
2) Avoid crossover between 500 to 5kHz. Hard to get it right. Once out of those region your ear is less sensitive and you have better chance.
3) Use WAW type designs, small full range driver with woofer.
4) Use established design if you are not exceptionally skilled in designing.
5) It is so easy to get it wrong, therefore measurements are really critical...
Oon
The competence of a designer can make or break the results. Confirmation bias of a recently completed design can also yield unexpected and undeserved elation.
Yep, I've done that a few times. It's good to have a comparing benchmark to decide if you are not hearing what you think you are.
Wolf
Yep, I've done that a few times. It's good to have a comparing benchmark to decide if you are not hearing what you think you are.
Wolf
I agree with you here... if you wanted conventional boxes 2-3way, consider buying one. If you have a chance to audition than all the better, you will get one that you like. If you DIY, you actually don't have an idea how it will actually sound.... it may have worked perfectly but the sound is not to your taste....
Some areas are worth DIYIng because conventional solution is so rare or expensive..
1) OB
2) line array
3) High Efficiency
4) Active with DSP.
5) Full range
6) WAW
7) Large Horns
Oon
Lots of people show up and say "I've decided to try building my own speakers..." and I think that's great! I like the hobby myself! But then they say "... I've budgeted $1000..."
I wish we could normalize the idea that a build with <$50 drivers can be quite good. Nobody wants to hear "You don't know enough about what you're doing to bother with $$$$$ drivers. Save yourself some money."
I wish we could normalize the idea that a build with <$50 drivers can be quite good. Nobody wants to hear "You don't know enough about what you're doing to bother with $$$$$ drivers. Save yourself some money."
I couldn't disagree with you more.
There are two different definitions of DIY, and it depends on what you have the "D" mean.
If the "D" means to "design" it yourself, then I agree. There are very few people here that are capable of designing a good speaker. They think that one of the various crossover design programs that is readily available will result a very good result. But that is naive thinking. It takes someone with real understanding and experience to complete a good sounding speaker and few people here have it.
But if the "D" means "do" it yourself as it relates to building the speaker, and not designing it, then it is possible to have outstanding results with performance that far exceeds manufactured products of the same cost.
And that depends entirely on using a design by one of the well known and respected designers. A few names in that category are Dennis Murphy, Paul Carmody, Troels Graversen, and the late Jeff Bagby. There may be a few others, but that is a good starting list.
There is no doubt that the designs by any of them will provide performance that matches and can even exceed commercial products costing anywhere from 5 to 10 times more than the parts for these designs.
And therein lies the tremendous value of DIY speaker building.
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Some people provide DIY designs (to usually the young and inexperienced) that constitute strange / rare / expensive parts that would in turn bring some "business" for themselves / some others who make / sell the same. Alternatively, they charge lots of money for a "kit", that includes all the nuts and bolts to build a "DIY" loudspeaker that "looks and sounds good".
Unfortunately, since both money and sound performance are subjective things, the results are not always satisfying, in which case, a DIY speaker rarely sells for a good price, leaving little room for a replacement.
Thus, I'm of the opinion that one needs to know what he/she wants, before spending money/time on something, as it is the satisfaction of the subject that is important. If you have a lot of money to spend, buy a commercial speaker of high standards (processors, studio monitor etc.), else try to get parts/equivalents (with help from knowledgeable people), that could get you really close to what you're after (do it yourself). However, if you want to learn the art/science of loudspeaker building, you may need to read a lot before you attempt to build something. It's possible but the price of a commercial loudspeaker always includes charges for the "know not how" of the customer, and is designed to provide "documented" performance.
Nevertheless, in some cases, people having high standards might find that no commercial louspeaker can provide what they're looking for. In such cases, DIY is the only way ahead.
Unfortunately, since both money and sound performance are subjective things, the results are not always satisfying, in which case, a DIY speaker rarely sells for a good price, leaving little room for a replacement.
Thus, I'm of the opinion that one needs to know what he/she wants, before spending money/time on something, as it is the satisfaction of the subject that is important. If you have a lot of money to spend, buy a commercial speaker of high standards (processors, studio monitor etc.), else try to get parts/equivalents (with help from knowledgeable people), that could get you really close to what you're after (do it yourself). However, if you want to learn the art/science of loudspeaker building, you may need to read a lot before you attempt to build something. It's possible but the price of a commercial loudspeaker always includes charges for the "know not how" of the customer, and is designed to provide "documented" performance.
Nevertheless, in some cases, people having high standards might find that no commercial louspeaker can provide what they're looking for. In such cases, DIY is the only way ahead.
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I'm glad everybody on diyaudio/forum lives in a city of 20000000 inhabitants with a good supply of quality speakers at a decent price.
I've always lived in the middle. Flyover country. I disliked the Bose 901 and Klipschhorns that were available to me. I liked the Altec Lansing VOT I heard in 1966 and in 55 years have never seen a pair for sale within driving distance. In 1966-80 that excluded 200 miles my car was so old and unreliable. In 1966 new VOTs were a year's pay for me. AR3 in 1972 were only 4 month's pay the pair, but they were demonstrating on Simon & Garfunkle, which doesn't tell me anything about highs & lows. You can't take a used piano LP into a store that sells LPs and ask for a demo. I've never seen a pair of AR3 used in 51 years. I've since determined since if a speaker doesn't go to 54 hz -3db, I don't want it. SP5 failed, as did all the bookshelf units and "monitors" I've heard.
What is demonstrated in flyover country has 5 drivers, sizzles and booms effectively, but is so bad even on the hip-hop they play I can tell accuracy is ****. No point even in taking in the piano CD for a demo. There were Polk full range (one driver) at Best Buy once 2002?, but they were warehousing them, not demonstrating.
So I've expanded the search to include JBL 4365, 4367, JRX112M, 4722, mythical JBL "M2", Yorktown U15, Klipsch LaScala, of course Magnaplanars (unicorns) , Danley SH50, Peavey SP2-XT or SP2(2004). Meyer Sound no model #, Ky Center for the Arts has a quad, almost liked them.
Peavey SP2(2004) was demonstrated here, were okay, I bought SP2-XT as substitutes for only a weeks pay.
After my Peavey SP2-XT were stolen 2020 I looked for a year. Danley SH50 showed up 150 miles away for $4500 the pair but won't fit in the house & probably won't fit through the door. U-haul truck 300 miles RT would be $600 more with gas @ 8 mpg. JBL 4722 showed up 1400 miles away but you had to buy 7 each and 4 subwoofers for $6000. Freight from New Jersey would have been another $1200. Klipsch LaScala showed up in Vermont, only $1000 freight away and no guarantee that the drivers were original. Going to listen with a CD player & an amp would have cost $800, much less paying for them & shipping.
So while I was waiting 15 months to find the SP2(2004) 120 miles away, I bought some 15" eminence woofers for $270 ea. and a pair of Peavey RX22 drivers on horns for $180. I may not be able to build something equal to the SP2(2004) but I can make them ugly enough that they will have no value to the fence that paid the burglar. The burglar left all the home projects here; all the black Peavey gear was stolen. Finish is going to be clear urethane over MDF. That ugly enough to make them not worth stealing?
Knowledge is cheap. A $10 book, some time on the internet. I'm going to have to buy a circular saw, another burglar magnet, but still cheaper than a pair of used Danleys. Crossover first cut can be 2 channels of an amp and a $50 graphic equalizer. No DSP in this no-smart-phone zone. I have 2/3 acre for an anechoic audition chamber. Might be able to make the crossover passive RLC in a year or two.
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