The biggest advantage we as DIY have is to cater to our own room/environment. Regard the room + speakers as a system and you can get ahead. Something the big firms can't do is determine how the speakers are used/placed. We can take advantage of our own situation. Yes, room treatment can help!
The room, always the room... want a good DIY hifi ? Learn to make concrete before working on wood.
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So are you saying that it's not possible to have a good DIY speaker made out of wood?
That's ridiculous.
You can challenge it all you want, but there is no doubt the value proposition is that you can build a speaker yourself that is equivalent, or even better, in sound quality than a commercially produced one costing 5 to 10 times more.
And note carefully that I am talking about building a speaker yourself that is a proven design from one of the experts.
Not designing it yourself. Thats' a whole different ball game.
I believe diyiggy trying to make that point that you will achieve better results by building a good listening room than by buildings speakers. Diyiggy might have a point there. The importance of a good room is vastly underrated even among audiophiles.
My listening room is the shape of the Wein Philharmoniker hall: with the speakers at one end, 8' apart, tweeters 8' above the floor pointing at my head as Peavey intended. 14'w*11'h*33'long. Multiple record racks, bookcases, organs, piano, stuffed furniture, carpet, ceiling tile, break up the standing waves. Room, check. You can have your cathedral ceilings, I'll take an obsolete bungalo with a shotgun Livingroom/diningroom/kitchen lined up anyday. Like today. I saw the possibilities when I bought the place. Also I'm 50' from any neighbor's wall. Sound is great even in kitchen at table eating breakfast.
My friend that had the Bose 901s I hated, he lived in a 5 sided bedroom of his father's design. Room muddying of 901 sound might have been part of the problem. Distortion caused by all those mid-range speakers trying to pretend they were woofers & tweeters was the other problem, IMHO.
My friend that had the Bose 901s I hated, he lived in a 5 sided bedroom of his father's design. Room muddying of 901 sound might have been part of the problem. Distortion caused by all those mid-range speakers trying to pretend they were woofers & tweeters was the other problem, IMHO.
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There is no such place as the Wein Philharmoniker hall.
Perhaps you are referring to the Wiener Musikverein, commonly shortened to Musikverein, which is a concert hall in Vienna, Austria.
It is the home of the Vienna Philharmonic orchestra.
The most expensive DIY projects I can think of would not cost any more than about $A4,000 including decent, nicely finished cabinets made by a cabinet maker. The three of which I'm aware at that price point, but haven't heard of course, are universally well reviewed and acclaimed. Their designers have put in countless hours, have selected excellent drivers - not necessarily the most expensive - and I'd have no hesitation in building them. I wish I could say the same for some A$4,000 retail speakers I've heard.
In Oz, there are now very few specialist hi fi stores; mostly it's barn like places which have no resemblance to any room that the customer might have. Further, there's no return if you don't like the speakers when you get them home, so that argument against DIY is a bit weak.
It's true that DIY (anything, not just speakers) will have lower resale value than store bought, so that's a valid point. But since I'm not intending to sell any of our DIY speakers that doesn't matter to me. With one exception,which I didn't make, my cabinets are pretty daggy looking so no one would buy them anyway!
However there are many DIY speakers which feature stunning cabinet work which would put some commercial offerings to shame. Just have a look at the Mid West Audio Fest competitions sponsored by Parts Express.
There are a few examples - I'll have to chase them up - where there are kit versions of the same speakers which are also available retail, but you provide the cabinets. The price difference ranges from 'not much' to 50%, significant in anybody's language.
Speaker components and cabinet makers' labour here are higher than overseas, but so are retail speakers - around double the US price in most cases, so the value proposition is similar.
Geoff
In Oz, there are now very few specialist hi fi stores; mostly it's barn like places which have no resemblance to any room that the customer might have. Further, there's no return if you don't like the speakers when you get them home, so that argument against DIY is a bit weak.
It's true that DIY (anything, not just speakers) will have lower resale value than store bought, so that's a valid point. But since I'm not intending to sell any of our DIY speakers that doesn't matter to me. With one exception,which I didn't make, my cabinets are pretty daggy looking so no one would buy them anyway!
However there are many DIY speakers which feature stunning cabinet work which would put some commercial offerings to shame. Just have a look at the Mid West Audio Fest competitions sponsored by Parts Express.
There are a few examples - I'll have to chase them up - where there are kit versions of the same speakers which are also available retail, but you provide the cabinets. The price difference ranges from 'not much' to 50%, significant in anybody's language.
Speaker components and cabinet makers' labour here are higher than overseas, but so are retail speakers - around double the US price in most cases, so the value proposition is similar.
Geoff
So, does today's technology make it generally easier to DIY a successful pair?
That is, pay for the tech, follow the basics (xover, cabinet) and that will get you (most probably) a result you probably wont be taking off the stands for years?
I can agree that well designed commercial speakers are difficult to compete with. That doesn't mean you can't end up with good DIY design that is competitive. You need good tools, perseverance and time to get things right. And yes it helps to have a standard to compare your DIY build too.
Nothing beats the enjoyment of finishing off your last build!
Rob
Nothing beats the enjoyment of finishing off your last build!
Rob
This +1... I know what a saxaphone sounds like, a cello, snare drum, hi-hat, viola, a french horn, a gibson es-335, kiri te kanawa, sarah vaughan, eddie vedder, freddie murcury.
I agree with clasicalfan, if you are new to DIY, have some carpentry/cabinet making skills, and want to build a much better speaker than you could buy, a kit is the way to go. You have to do your homework and research which designs are well thought of.
The original post described a situation where someone naively got taken by a flim-flam artist. It happens everyday in the used-automobile trade, but we don't say that all used car deals are bad deals...
j.
Recent innovations in VLSI have boosted DSP technology to an extent where even hard to crossover (or equalise) driver combinations could be managed fairly easily these days (knowledge still required). Further, the availability of more powerful computers could also (indirectly) contribute to better DIY speakers.
Another thing about DIY (or not) would be the exact application in which the speakers are to be used. A pair of computer speakers maybe easy to do but getting the huge 3/4 ways right in a sound reinforcement application would need much more knowledge, experience and equipment very well out of most hobbyists' hands. I guess the same applies to processing equipment as well.
I read whole thread. Great inputs. Hmm.. I wouldn’t agree that DIY perspective on this thread is pesimistics. Actualy its oposite- optimistics. Nothing wrong with that and fully complements DIY spirit of this forum(which have DIY in his name) I think we expanded main idea of thread to different aproach. Its primary idea was to tell/warn (well documented ,pricey ,DIY project from well known DIY designer) take it with grain of salt- i.e. reality.
I also agree that many diy project can sound bad with lot of technical errors due lack of knowledge. I also agree that many comercial brand speakers sound with technical errors. The diferencie lies in those erors origins. in one case they left on purpose.
However the most notewrthy (for most reading this thread which still does not have biased opinions) thing is that there so many bad sounding DIY speakers which made without technical erors (e.g. flat frequency response, smooth directivity, low drivers/box discortion) and so little comercial ones doing that.
I rarely generalise things, however this comes from around 15 years expierence with people who continuesly kept asking me to build boxes / assemble crossovers and measure project from venerable DIFERENT diy designers. I just build, assemble , measure and compare with comercial brand speakers. All this done keeping strick instructions.
There is no way they can be competetive to comercial ones in performance unless some very aggressive marketing tactic in regions where there is poor dealer networks and not much brands can be heard/compared. The other option is imagine there is no comercial speakers,or they have poor price performance ratio, or they are much worse in general and even not worth to audition. But we should be impatial on this topic. How many of us have at home(not audition at friend or worse- in audioshow) at least one pair of 10KEUR well designed ( this means recognized by masses of worldwide audiophiles) to compare with our own DIY or someone else DIY designed projects? Its nothing wrong not wanting to spent biger amount moneys on speakers rather than on other family needs.
Another memorable moments is that I have witnessed so many jaw droping DIY’er reaction to good brand speakers, but not a single that kind reaction of audiophiles( having good audio setups 20-400KEUR) range) when listening to DIY speakers. Most sucesfull feedback was “ well they are quite nice” most of the time they politely stays silent without any expressions of what they think. Again and have witnessed countless very negative diyers evaluation feedbacks for comercial brand speakers which they heard at audioshow or local hi-fi store. most of them was like -"i can do much better for 10/th of the price"
I also agree that many diy project can sound bad with lot of technical errors due lack of knowledge. I also agree that many comercial brand speakers sound with technical errors. The diferencie lies in those erors origins. in one case they left on purpose.
However the most notewrthy (for most reading this thread which still does not have biased opinions) thing is that there so many bad sounding DIY speakers which made without technical erors (e.g. flat frequency response, smooth directivity, low drivers/box discortion) and so little comercial ones doing that.
I rarely generalise things, however this comes from around 15 years expierence with people who continuesly kept asking me to build boxes / assemble crossovers and measure project from venerable DIFERENT diy designers. I just build, assemble , measure and compare with comercial brand speakers. All this done keeping strick instructions.
There is no way they can be competetive to comercial ones in performance unless some very aggressive marketing tactic in regions where there is poor dealer networks and not much brands can be heard/compared. The other option is imagine there is no comercial speakers,or they have poor price performance ratio, or they are much worse in general and even not worth to audition. But we should be impatial on this topic. How many of us have at home(not audition at friend or worse- in audioshow) at least one pair of 10KEUR well designed ( this means recognized by masses of worldwide audiophiles) to compare with our own DIY or someone else DIY designed projects? Its nothing wrong not wanting to spent biger amount moneys on speakers rather than on other family needs.
Another memorable moments is that I have witnessed so many jaw droping DIY’er reaction to good brand speakers, but not a single that kind reaction of audiophiles( having good audio setups 20-400KEUR) range) when listening to DIY speakers. Most sucesfull feedback was “ well they are quite nice” most of the time they politely stays silent without any expressions of what they think. Again and have witnessed countless very negative diyers evaluation feedbacks for comercial brand speakers which they heard at audioshow or local hi-fi store. most of them was like -"i can do much better for 10/th of the price"
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Therein lies the rub. The point of reference.
Diy speaker efforts may show some efficiency in the 2-5k EUR range but once the commercial reference surpasses 20-30k it is hard to compete, especially if the commercial reference is second hand at 30-40% of retail.
Also true of diy electronics. The high end diy hobby may be fun and extremely rewarding but you don't need an accountant to tell you it is not a viable way to save money
This thread made me wonder what percentage of today's serious speakers still use wood based materials for enclosures. The top contenders certainly do not.