The mass of air can't damp alone! See the huge, undamped basal resonance of full range ESLs! The damping come from ohmic component of radiation impedance, which dominate at higher frequencies. Of course, you are rigt: the air mass greater than membrane mass (always). The mass alone gives only inductive component of complex load impedance, not the damping.
The mass of the membrane we choose ourselves, I, for example, use a membrane thickness of 2 microns in the HF, but in the woofer where the area of membranes 50/50cm I use a membrane thickness of 12 microns.
Of course, if you use a 30 or 50microns thick diaphragm, its weight may be critical for air damping.
Indeed, almost right... But, only if we comparise with conventional, conical dynamic drivers. But unfortunately, the ESLs hasn't full immunity too...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...quencies-of-the-electrostatic_fig10_275662673
Not true again... The thicker foil's mass still neglible too - compared the coupled moving air mass. The membrane thickness can be critical for the high frequency roll off, but not at basal resonance.
If we can hear a lot of pipe organ music and orchestra, all of us have a mesmeric illusions?
A thicker membrane will be more rigid, and a rigid surface is preferable for HF radiation.
And yes, I tried all this, the HF on a thick membrane is no less, but they are much more colored, that is, the inertial mass matters.
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Organ music has a relation to hypnosis, but only insignificantly. Above we discussed the piston mode of the emitter, so I remembered the pipes of the organ so that low frequencies can be obtained without the piston mode, but then you need to remember the “physical law” that in order to to create a sound wave at 30 Hz, we will need a physical body measuring 11.4 meters, that is, a size corresponding to the length of the sound wave at 30 Hz.
Hi,
sorry to also say; "havun You erred on several points" ... well, in fact all points that nedymium ´complained´ about.
Not mentioned by him is "never use double-sided tape".
Just looking at the portfolio of tapes from 3M one can see, that just as with finding the right glue for the associated joining partner materials it is crucial to find the right tape.
I had no probs with relaxing diaphgragms due to thin double-sided tape in my flat wire-stators utilizing PVC as spacers and a TESA carpet tape with mostly thermal tensioning of the membrane.
I have also none of the claimed probs using 3M tapes (some black ones as well as the clear ones) in my curved sheet metal stators (with a top insulating layer of PU-laquer) at much higher mechanical membrane tension.
Actually I once asked 3M service for a procedure to remove those tapes ... they answered they didn´t knew a practical and non-distructive one.
Again: choosing the right glue or choosing the right tape and choosing the right application procedure will result in a highly durable, lasting glue joint.
jauu
Calvin
ps. fortunately neodymium released us others from debunking Your false claims.
#15: claim: flat stator requires more excursion due to reduced piston mode ... No, but towards high frequencies moving towards a kindof pistonic mode.
#18: claim: no piston mode no LF-output ... No again. Nature provides us with several different excitation modes, not just pistonic ... which as I think of it is probabely the least used by nature.
#19: claim: ESL-field, there are no areas where the activation mode is more or less ... Not true, the area close to the suspension is just one.
I suggest as reading: Mr. Streng´s papers about charge movement on stretched membranes, and/or sound radiation from circular membranes, and others.
Hi,
edit: unfortunately the response to claims #22, #27 and #28 vanished somehow in the depths of the system ... just in short: those claims are also resting on very thin ground.
sorry to also say; "havun You erred on several points" ... well, in fact all points that nedymium ´complained´ about.
Not mentioned by him is "never use double-sided tape".
Just looking at the portfolio of tapes from 3M one can see, that just as with finding the right glue for the associated joining partner materials it is crucial to find the right tape.
I had no probs with relaxing diaphgragms due to thin double-sided tape in my flat wire-stators utilizing PVC as spacers and a TESA carpet tape with mostly thermal tensioning of the membrane.
I have also none of the claimed probs using 3M tapes (some black ones as well as the clear ones) in my curved sheet metal stators (with a top insulating layer of PU-laquer) at much higher mechanical membrane tension.
Actually I once asked 3M service for a procedure to remove those tapes ... they answered they didn´t knew a practical and non-distructive one.
Again: choosing the right glue or choosing the right tape and choosing the right application procedure will result in a highly durable, lasting glue joint.
jauu
Calvin
ps. fortunately neodymium released us others from debunking Your false claims.
#15: claim: flat stator requires more excursion due to reduced piston mode ... No, but towards high frequencies moving towards a kindof pistonic mode.
#18: claim: no piston mode no LF-output ... No again. Nature provides us with several different excitation modes, not just pistonic ... which as I think of it is probabely the least used by nature.
#19: claim: ESL-field, there are no areas where the activation mode is more or less ... Not true, the area close to the suspension is just one.
I suggest as reading: Mr. Streng´s papers about charge movement on stretched membranes, and/or sound radiation from circular membranes, and others.
Hi,
edit: unfortunately the response to claims #22, #27 and #28 vanished somehow in the depths of the system ... just in short: those claims are also resting on very thin ground.
Attachments
Calvin
Hello, unfortunately you have not refuted a single “my” point.I’ll tell you a little of my own story, in order to tension the membrane to a stator size of 2/0.4 meters, I had to build a tensioning device, the tension along the length was 20 kg, across the width 5 kg, you can’t do that using any thermal method, but the problem here is precisely that fix the film in this position, there is a problem with the glue, I found it.
Upon activation of the membrane, it is activated absolutely evenly over the entire area, another thing is how it reacts to activation in the center and at the edge, it is clear that in the center the membrane will experience the greatest piston mode.
It was on this occasion that I reminded that the membrane-stator gap in a rectilinear stator design should be greater than that of a curved stator of the Martin Logan type.
But accordingly, the low frequency will be greater for a rectilinear emitter for reasons that are understandable to all.
What did I write that was unclear to you?
Hi,
I certainly don´t regard me as ´all´.
So please feel free to explain it in simple technical wording why a plane stator requires more d/s than a curved one.
I´m coming to age and have probabely already forgotten more about ESLs than others may ever learn ... but hey, I try to be open for fresh thinking and ideas
jauu
Calvin
ps. havun: be assured I´m following Your ESL-project with positive interest, because I find it´s such a refreshingly different design to most others.
I certainly don´t regard me as ´all´.
So please feel free to explain it in simple technical wording why a plane stator requires more d/s than a curved one.
I´m coming to age and have probabely already forgotten more about ESLs than others may ever learn ... but hey, I try to be open for fresh thinking and ideas
jauu
Calvin
ps. havun: be assured I´m following Your ESL-project with positive interest, because I find it´s such a refreshingly different design to most others.
+ me!ps. havun: be assured I´m following Your ESL-project with positive interest, because I find it´s such a refreshingly different design to most others.
No more lion roar, only python roar! (The lion isn't enough big for its sound, only the python. But why audible the lion roar from 5km distance? The lion don't read diyAudio?)
The modelling is clever step of your ESL's development. I see the wanted speaker. Nice! If you needn't a few little electric shock
, I suggest, the aluminium crossbars connection to the earth potential, via resistors (cca. 1-10M). You can take 2-3 mm thick insulator between crossbars and wires. This causes reduction of parasitic capacitances (better efficiency and freq. response), especially, if the insulator is low permittivity (nonporous polystyrene or hard PVC foam plate).
Unfortunately, the stators are resonators, but damped and coupled resonators (at "best case scenario").
