soongsc said:
Thanks, I'll investigate doing this & post results in my linked thread - I'll let you know when I do.
$100 for A5 size is expensive but I guess Nickel & chrome don't come cheap - you specified this amalgam because it had a faster sound propagation speed than Alu of the cone?
This is one way of explaining it. But it's necessary to understand the relation between speed of sound and other material properies to fully understand what's going on. Too technical for this thread or for even a DIY forum.jkeny said:
UPDATE - EnABL Room Treatment
YOU'VE GOT TO TRY THIS!!!
I added the EnABL wall strips to the back corners of my listening room tonight.
Also put a strip on the wall on each side of the two archways.
I'm blown away by this!
Results
I should have learned from last time, but I was so amazed I couldn't wait.
- more clarity in the soundstage
- more dynamic range across all frequencies
- bass is noticeably tighter, fuller, more open and more detailed
Even my 11 y.o son (who thinks I'm nuts BTW - yeah I know, smart lad) commented on the difference.
Usually he is completely disinterested in anything audio
Application Details
Block size: 4 cm x 2 cm
Block Material: Norton 'All Weather Tape' (clear)
Strip Material: Clear Contact self-adhesive book covering
Strip Height: 60cm
Here is the picture I posted earlier.
I had to hold a very bright lamp directly over to show the blocks in this photo.
It is pretty much invisible normally.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My Listening Room
I feel obliged to provide some details about my listening room.
It's nothing special and there is no acoustic treatment at all.
Size:
3.3m x 4.7m x 2.4m (W x L x H)
Floor:
Concrete slab on ground with carpet.
Walls:
Timber stud frame, gyprock (drywall)
Furnishings:
- there is an archway at both ends (both are the same size)
- the other archway (not pictured) leads into a hallway with tiled floor
- curtain on one side wall over a window
- leather lounge on the other side wall
- two leather recliners side by side ay the listening end of the room
- you can see the speakers and the cupboard I referred to in earlier posts.
That's it for now.
I'm far too distracted by all this to say much more now.
I'll wait a day and see what happens when the tape settles in.
Cheers,
Alex
PS - Please email me if you want to discuss this 'offline'.
YOU'VE GOT TO TRY THIS!!!
I added the EnABL wall strips to the back corners of my listening room tonight.
Also put a strip on the wall on each side of the two archways.
I'm blown away by this!
Results
I should have learned from last time, but I was so amazed I couldn't wait.
- more clarity in the soundstage
- more dynamic range across all frequencies
- bass is noticeably tighter, fuller, more open and more detailed
Even my 11 y.o son (who thinks I'm nuts BTW - yeah I know, smart lad) commented on the difference.
Usually he is completely disinterested in anything audio
Application Details
Block size: 4 cm x 2 cm
Block Material: Norton 'All Weather Tape' (clear)
Strip Material: Clear Contact self-adhesive book covering
Strip Height: 60cm
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here is the picture I posted earlier.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I had to hold a very bright lamp directly over to show the blocks in this photo.
It is pretty much invisible normally.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My Listening Room
I feel obliged to provide some details about my listening room.
It's nothing special and there is no acoustic treatment at all.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Size:
3.3m x 4.7m x 2.4m (W x L x H)
Floor:
Concrete slab on ground with carpet.
Walls:
Timber stud frame, gyprock (drywall)
Furnishings:
- there is an archway at both ends (both are the same size)
- the other archway (not pictured) leads into a hallway with tiled floor
- curtain on one side wall over a window
- leather lounge on the other side wall
- two leather recliners side by side ay the listening end of the room
- you can see the speakers and the cupboard I referred to in earlier posts.
That's it for now.
I'm far too distracted by all this to say much more now.
I'll wait a day and see what happens when the tape settles in.
Cheers,
Alex
PS - Please email me if you want to discuss this 'offline'.
Alex, wife wants to know if you have plans for the family dog? She has quite firmly ruled out application on our walls and is making sympathetic noises concerning the long suffering female in your situation.
My point of view, is of course, GO FOR IT!
Bud
My point of view, is of course, GO FOR IT!
Bud
I'm still working my way through from the beginning so I hope this question hasn't been answered. How did you determine that 60cm was the right height and how did you decide vertical was the right orientation?
boydon_lepasci,
There is not a determination of "right" for the height. Alex is carving away at entirely new territory and is likely looking to do it in stages, just to get some idea of where and if there is a "right" height.
The positioning comes from putting EnABL patterns at the edges of panels and diaphragms. There will likely be a couple of mid way positions that are also useful.
To treat an entire wall, a full peripheral panel treatment would be needed, with patterns also running parallel to ceiling and floor. Within that context, mid wall pattern rows should cross the narrowest dimension, which means that they will likely be vertical in orientation.
It will be very interesting to have an entire room treated on planet and have some comments about usefulness to audio pursuits. I am pretty sure the WAF will be low.
Bud
There is not a determination of "right" for the height. Alex is carving away at entirely new territory and is likely looking to do it in stages, just to get some idea of where and if there is a "right" height.
The positioning comes from putting EnABL patterns at the edges of panels and diaphragms. There will likely be a couple of mid way positions that are also useful.
To treat an entire wall, a full peripheral panel treatment would be needed, with patterns also running parallel to ceiling and floor. Within that context, mid wall pattern rows should cross the narrowest dimension, which means that they will likely be vertical in orientation.
It will be very interesting to have an entire room treated on planet and have some comments about usefulness to audio pursuits. I am pretty sure the WAF will be low.
Bud
G'day Bud,
Actually, my wife hasn't noticed what I've done...yet!
I may have some room re-painting issues if I have to peel this stuff back off again. 😀:
She is generally patient with my obsession, but doesn't share my enthusiasm. 🙄
You could lay the blocks on strips of static cling whiteboard sheets
This would allow easy application and removal without risk of damage to the paint on the walls.
Also would be a really easy way to apply EnABL to speaker baffles.
If I was given permission, I would apply the EnABL pattern:
1) vertically from floor to ceiling in all four (4) room corners
2) horizontally along the skirting boards around the entire room
3) horizontally along the top edges on all four (4) walls just below the cornice.
If I was to do all the above, I would:
a) re-paint the entire room
b) mark up the pattern with masking tape
c) paint the blocks with clear matt finish paint.
This would give you the benefits of the EnABL pattern without the aesthetic issues.
A good compromise!
- - - - - - - - - - -
G'day boydon_lepasci,
Yes, there's lots of reading about EnABL.
You'll need to go back and review it from time to time as well.
"How did you determine that 60cm was the right height?"
The speakers I'm currently using as EnABL workhorses are about 60cm tall.
I was aiming for a stealth application for the room corners to see if there would be any effect.
So, that set the height.
"how did you decide vertical was the right orientation?"
I treated the corners in exactly the same way as the edges of a speaker cabinet.
The only difference is that the block size is bigger.
You should read Bud's patent application if you haven't done so already.
It's worth noting that my exploration of surface EnABL is an extension of the body of work that Bud has already done over 30+ years.
As for driver EnABL, I'm still on a steep learning curve.
Cheers,
Alex
Actually, my wife hasn't noticed what I've done...yet!
I may have some room re-painting issues if I have to peel this stuff back off again. 😀:
She is generally patient with my obsession, but doesn't share my enthusiasm. 🙄
You could lay the blocks on strips of static cling whiteboard sheets
This would allow easy application and removal without risk of damage to the paint on the walls.
Also would be a really easy way to apply EnABL to speaker baffles.
If I was given permission, I would apply the EnABL pattern:
1) vertically from floor to ceiling in all four (4) room corners
2) horizontally along the skirting boards around the entire room
3) horizontally along the top edges on all four (4) walls just below the cornice.
If I was to do all the above, I would:
a) re-paint the entire room
b) mark up the pattern with masking tape
c) paint the blocks with clear matt finish paint.
This would give you the benefits of the EnABL pattern without the aesthetic issues.
A good compromise!
- - - - - - - - - - -
G'day boydon_lepasci,
Yes, there's lots of reading about EnABL.
You'll need to go back and review it from time to time as well.
"How did you determine that 60cm was the right height?"
The speakers I'm currently using as EnABL workhorses are about 60cm tall.
I was aiming for a stealth application for the room corners to see if there would be any effect.
So, that set the height.
"how did you decide vertical was the right orientation?"
I treated the corners in exactly the same way as the edges of a speaker cabinet.
The only difference is that the block size is bigger.
You should read Bud's patent application if you haven't done so already.
It's worth noting that my exploration of surface EnABL is an extension of the body of work that Bud has already done over 30+ years.
As for driver EnABL, I'm still on a steep learning curve.
Cheers,
Alex
Bud and Alex, thanks for the replies. I was just wondering if the room somehow didn't require the full treatment I read about for baffles and cabinets. Of course I will continue to follow the progress in this thread and try to work my way through from the beginning(the "technical" thread too).
Let me throw in my thanks also to Bud for "giving away" a major chunk of his life and Alex for making his obsession more than just a mental exercise.
Let me throw in my thanks also to Bud for "giving away" a major chunk of his life and Alex for making his obsession more than just a mental exercise.
boydon_lepasci,
Greatest thanks and an enduring pleasure for me, is to watch others pick this up and use it, to their delight. I have attached the txt file with the locations for various aspects of EnABL below. Be sure you take a look at the original thread too, a lot of information there.
Bud
Greatest thanks and an enduring pleasure for me, is to watch others pick this up and use it, to their delight. I have attached the txt file with the locations for various aspects of EnABL below. Be sure you take a look at the original thread too, a lot of information there.
Bud
boydon_lepasci said:
G'day boydon_lepasci,
Based on the results of the EnABL room treatment I've done so far (and my experience with cabinets) I'm convinced that the full EnABL room treatment is definitely worth doing.
Cheers,
Alex
Re: seas tweeters
Step 2 - even more success. I put microgloss over the EnAble pattern. It’s a 1/4" band at the surround using a light 50/50 water mix. I also put it on the face of the metal plate from the surround to the edge.
First listening impressions after 12 hours curing are very encouraging. This evening I'll do some critical listening after 24 hours curing. Initial impression is a fairly dramatic effect. It’s more of that crystal clear rendering separated by silent space. Jazz with cymbals and percussion sounds natural. Female voices are spooky real. I put on a cut from Dianna Krall's “From this Moment On”, to hear big orchestra with a vocalist. When the first voice came on I was actually startled in a positive way. Sound stage is well behind the speakers, 3D and wide. Female soloists have changed position. Instead of dead center and out in front it seems they have moved back a few feet closer to the instruments.
I’ll post more listening impressions as I get to know this sound and the gloss fully cures. Even though I calculate the hipass as somewhere around 3.5kHz, I swear the impact has been across the spectrum. There must be some details expressed by the Tweeters even in notes that are outside their main band.
wlowes said:
Step 2 - even more success. I put microgloss over the EnAble pattern. It’s a 1/4" band at the surround using a light 50/50 water mix. I also put it on the face of the metal plate from the surround to the edge.
First listening impressions after 12 hours curing are very encouraging. This evening I'll do some critical listening after 24 hours curing. Initial impression is a fairly dramatic effect. It’s more of that crystal clear rendering separated by silent space. Jazz with cymbals and percussion sounds natural. Female voices are spooky real. I put on a cut from Dianna Krall's “From this Moment On”, to hear big orchestra with a vocalist. When the first voice came on I was actually startled in a positive way. Sound stage is well behind the speakers, 3D and wide. Female soloists have changed position. Instead of dead center and out in front it seems they have moved back a few feet closer to the instruments.
I’ll post more listening impressions as I get to know this sound and the gloss fully cures. Even though I calculate the hipass as somewhere around 3.5kHz, I swear the impact has been across the spectrum. There must be some details expressed by the Tweeters even in notes that are outside their main band.
wlowes,
EnABL drops the effective noise floor about another 50 dB, over the usual 40dB down. This means that even in the rolled off portion of the dome tweeters frequency range, you are going to have coherent information added to the leading edges of the signals provided primarily by the low frequency driver. This will aid intelligibility down to 150Hz by providing the tiny sounds that describe an instrument in a musical venue.
Before you decide to cover the dome with gloss, take a small diameter, fairly hard, stick and tap up the dome radially. Listen very carefully to the decay of these tiny sounds. If you find a location where the frequency character "drops out" or the decay seems to become chaotic in it's perceived direction, add another row of dots, applied with the #66 pen from the kit.
Adding this to a driver that needs it, and most do, will open up the top end dynamics and add even more intelligibility. Same will hold true for the large driver, though you may find more than one of these on that surface. You can add patterns after gloss coating and you may or may not want to cover them with more gloss, just over the new patterns. Leaving them bare adds a faint bit of "grit" to the sound that some folks find charming.
Bud
EnABL drops the effective noise floor about another 50 dB, over the usual 40dB down. This means that even in the rolled off portion of the dome tweeters frequency range, you are going to have coherent information added to the leading edges of the signals provided primarily by the low frequency driver. This will aid intelligibility down to 150Hz by providing the tiny sounds that describe an instrument in a musical venue.
Before you decide to cover the dome with gloss, take a small diameter, fairly hard, stick and tap up the dome radially. Listen very carefully to the decay of these tiny sounds. If you find a location where the frequency character "drops out" or the decay seems to become chaotic in it's perceived direction, add another row of dots, applied with the #66 pen from the kit.
Adding this to a driver that needs it, and most do, will open up the top end dynamics and add even more intelligibility. Same will hold true for the large driver, though you may find more than one of these on that surface. You can add patterns after gloss coating and you may or may not want to cover them with more gloss, just over the new patterns. Leaving them bare adds a faint bit of "grit" to the sound that some folks find charming.
Bud
Bud,
I've liked your correlator description of hearing (psychoacoustics) since I first read it - it makes sense from all sorts of perspectives.
From the survival perspective it makes sense to have our ears attuned to low level noises which might pose a threat in the environment or needed for hunting prey. It strikes me as similar to the way our eyes are attuned to sense movement rather than stationary objects, again for the same survival imperative. There is also a thread here somewhere by a tinitus sufferer who maintains that the brain can focus out tinitus by training - something like tuning out background sounds when concentrating?
I wonder does it explain somewhat the conundrum of why some systems sound better than others ie (tubes Vs solid state) (Se versus PP), etc - the ones that sound best have distortion spectra more like the distortion spectra found in real life for real instruments and combinations of instruments, etc. Musicians will tell about instruments & voices in a choir, at times coming into phase & at times going out of phase. this can be heard but can it be picked up by measurement?
I've liked your correlator description of hearing (psychoacoustics) since I first read it - it makes sense from all sorts of perspectives.
From the survival perspective it makes sense to have our ears attuned to low level noises which might pose a threat in the environment or needed for hunting prey. It strikes me as similar to the way our eyes are attuned to sense movement rather than stationary objects, again for the same survival imperative. There is also a thread here somewhere by a tinitus sufferer who maintains that the brain can focus out tinitus by training - something like tuning out background sounds when concentrating?
I wonder does it explain somewhat the conundrum of why some systems sound better than others ie (tubes Vs solid state) (Se versus PP), etc - the ones that sound best have distortion spectra more like the distortion spectra found in real life for real instruments and combinations of instruments, etc. Musicians will tell about instruments & voices in a choir, at times coming into phase & at times going out of phase. this can be heard but can it be picked up by measurement?
jkenny,
Everything you can hear and actually quite a bit more, can be picked up, manipulated and displayed by measuring equipment. Folks who have devoted a lot of time to correlating what is found in various objective presentations to what is heard from an emitter with specific spectral characteristics can find objective data presentations of specific subjective expressions. A lot of these folks hang out here and over in Lynn Olson's giant thread here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100392&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Reading Lynn and his contributors is a massive educational experience
Bud.
Everything you can hear and actually quite a bit more, can be picked up, manipulated and displayed by measuring equipment. Folks who have devoted a lot of time to correlating what is found in various objective presentations to what is heard from an emitter with specific spectral characteristics can find objective data presentations of specific subjective expressions. A lot of these folks hang out here and over in Lynn Olson's giant thread here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100392&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Reading Lynn and his contributors is a massive educational experience
Bud.
correlator
I know that this filtering process has been well documented. I can add some observation about the distress and effort that it takes for us to filter background noise that is excessive. About 18 months back, my wife had a serious stroke, and her audio processing center was damaged. She lost all ability to filter background noise. Everything was roaring and very threatening. Over time with the wonders of Neuroplasticity, she was able to regain the ability to filter the noise, and identify sounds. At this stage in our quiet home she can be quite comfortable. But if you put herr into a noisier environment like a restaurant, and at first its ok, but she is clearly not comfortable. It takes a great deal of mental effort for her to continue to process out the noise and after about 45 minutes the filtering fails resulting in lots of stress and discomfort. Flight is the only alternative.
I am convinced that there is a very similar process going on with us listening to our systems. Most systems have a sufficient signal to noise ratio that we think they are very good, but often very tiring and in some cases downright irritating after a while. As we strip away layer after layer of noise we are allowing the music to be heard, and reducing the amount of work our audio processing center has to do to strip out the junk introduced by wire, dielectric, resistors, capacitors and all the other stuff in the way. Enable clearly is having that same effect.
BudP said:
I know that this filtering process has been well documented. I can add some observation about the distress and effort that it takes for us to filter background noise that is excessive. About 18 months back, my wife had a serious stroke, and her audio processing center was damaged. She lost all ability to filter background noise. Everything was roaring and very threatening. Over time with the wonders of Neuroplasticity, she was able to regain the ability to filter the noise, and identify sounds. At this stage in our quiet home she can be quite comfortable. But if you put herr into a noisier environment like a restaurant, and at first its ok, but she is clearly not comfortable. It takes a great deal of mental effort for her to continue to process out the noise and after about 45 minutes the filtering fails resulting in lots of stress and discomfort. Flight is the only alternative.
I am convinced that there is a very similar process going on with us listening to our systems. Most systems have a sufficient signal to noise ratio that we think they are very good, but often very tiring and in some cases downright irritating after a while. As we strip away layer after layer of noise we are allowing the music to be heard, and reducing the amount of work our audio processing center has to do to strip out the junk introduced by wire, dielectric, resistors, capacitors and all the other stuff in the way. Enable clearly is having that same effect.
Training of the ears is a recursive process There is actually a commercially available training program that is designed to do this. http://www.moultonlabs.com/full/jkeny said:
Perceptions will be different depending on cultural bacground, recorded material, and how one describes the perception. Normally if one can describe in enough detail in ragards to the actual music source used, like a specific CD or LP etc., then we can gradually communicate the findings over the NET in a more understandable manner.
It is impossible to measure what is in phase and what is out of phase unless this is caused by the system. In any measurement, we always measure for how the system alters or is true to playback of the original signal source. Most phase inversion is happens at the source and not imposed by the playback system.
cost structure
Just about forgot another secret weapon. Bud's electron pools! $15 for a spool of wire but I have enough left for about 100 more. Speaker cables are 12g copper magnet wire to driver and the tweeters got a mix of 28 and 24g silver plus 18g copper. Wire for the cables probably cost about the same as the speakers.
Just about forgot another secret weapon. Bud's electron pools! $15 for a spool of wire but I have enough left for about 100 more. Speaker cables are 12g copper magnet wire to driver and the tweeters got a mix of 28 and 24g silver plus 18g copper. Wire for the cables probably cost about the same as the speakers.
Attachments
gtforme00 said:
I thought the same way 18 months ago - but I did try it on my baffle - just in case.
Have a look at EnABL for baffles and ports.
All reversible, no risk, proof of concept applications using stuff you probably have around the house.
You may be surprised what you can do with a roll of tape.
wlowes said:
G'day wlowes,
Have you done your room corners?
It gets even better...
Cheers,
Alex