Dayton DA 175-8
The Dayton DA 175-8 pictures are up on Picassa, here
http://picasaweb.google.com/hpurvine/DaytonDA1758DomeTweeter#
A couple of notes on the pattern sheet.
The "1" dome outer ring", that is above the "outer dome ring" is for the tweeter. The lower one is for the cone.
I recommend that you Gloss the perforated tweeter dome cover on both sides, if you are going to put it back on. I would remove the small plastic suppression plate on the underside, center, of the perforated cover. If you experience beaming with this plate removed, apply a small PVA dot onto the center spot on the dome, no bigger than 1/32" in diameter. Cover it with a very thin coating of Gloss after it is dry.
You should also Gloss coat the bezel with at least one coat of 50% cut Gloss. Painting pattern will not matter here, except for aesthetics, and you will probably end up with two or three coats.
In all, this is a very complex driver treatment, but if taken in stages, with reference to the photos, you should be very successful.
I would also strongly recommend that you use Alex's box treatment calculator and apply baffle patterns as it describes. You will end up with a set of speakers that, as wlowes says, are two boxes in the room, with no relationship to the music you are hearing.
Bud
The Dayton DA 175-8 pictures are up on Picassa, here
http://picasaweb.google.com/hpurvine/DaytonDA1758DomeTweeter#
A couple of notes on the pattern sheet.
The "1" dome outer ring", that is above the "outer dome ring" is for the tweeter. The lower one is for the cone.
I recommend that you Gloss the perforated tweeter dome cover on both sides, if you are going to put it back on. I would remove the small plastic suppression plate on the underside, center, of the perforated cover. If you experience beaming with this plate removed, apply a small PVA dot onto the center spot on the dome, no bigger than 1/32" in diameter. Cover it with a very thin coating of Gloss after it is dry.
You should also Gloss coat the bezel with at least one coat of 50% cut Gloss. Painting pattern will not matter here, except for aesthetics, and you will probably end up with two or three coats.
In all, this is a very complex driver treatment, but if taken in stages, with reference to the photos, you should be very successful.
I would also strongly recommend that you use Alex's box treatment calculator and apply baffle patterns as it describes. You will end up with a set of speakers that, as wlowes says, are two boxes in the room, with no relationship to the music you are hearing.
Bud
UPDATE - EnABL Room Treatment - Part 3
If you missed the first room treatment posts, go back and re-read them - otherwise this post may not make sense.
Well, I have now added horizontal EnABL strips into all four (4) corners (marked in red).
The yellow and red area represent the clear contact paper that I stuck the blocks onto.
The grid is a 2 cm x 2 cm to make it easier for you to see the layout.
Unlike the verticle strips which I applied in stages, I applied the horizontal strips (marked red) all at once.
The impact was both dramatic and awful.
Thankfully, I know that the tape takes 24-48 hours to settle in.
So I've had them in place for 1 week.
Results
The change that struck me most is in the bass.
There is a new level of deep bass.
At low volumes the bass is still there and very clearly defined.
I'm so pleased with the results that I don't plan to do any further room treatment for now.
Application Details (repeated)
Block size: 4 cm x 2 cm
Block Material: Norton 'All Weather Tape' (clear)*
Strip Material: Clear Contact paper (self-adhesive book covering)
(*I've been made aware that this is only available in Oz.
So alternative block material thickness
- 3 layers of contact paper OR
- 2 layers of PVC duct tape).
A good alternative to contact paper may be those static cling whiteboard sheets cut into strips.
You can peel these on and off at will without damaging the paint.
If you can to try this in your room, then do it!
And if you do, please post your listening impressions.
Cheers,
Alex
If you missed the first room treatment posts, go back and re-read them - otherwise this post may not make sense.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Well, I have now added horizontal EnABL strips into all four (4) corners (marked in red).
The yellow and red area represent the clear contact paper that I stuck the blocks onto.
The grid is a 2 cm x 2 cm to make it easier for you to see the layout.
Unlike the verticle strips which I applied in stages, I applied the horizontal strips (marked red) all at once.
The impact was both dramatic and awful.
Thankfully, I know that the tape takes 24-48 hours to settle in.
So I've had them in place for 1 week.
Results
The change that struck me most is in the bass.
There is a new level of deep bass.
At low volumes the bass is still there and very clearly defined.
I'm so pleased with the results that I don't plan to do any further room treatment for now.
Application Details (repeated)
Block size: 4 cm x 2 cm
Block Material: Norton 'All Weather Tape' (clear)*
Strip Material: Clear Contact paper (self-adhesive book covering)
(*I've been made aware that this is only available in Oz.
So alternative block material thickness
- 3 layers of contact paper OR
- 2 layers of PVC duct tape).
A good alternative to contact paper may be those static cling whiteboard sheets cut into strips.
You can peel these on and off at will without damaging the paint.
If you can to try this in your room, then do it!
And if you do, please post your listening impressions.
Cheers,
Alex
Alex,
I just contacted my vinyl guy to get one of these made for the 1 applicable corner i have... how tall, how wide?
dave
I just contacted my vinyl guy to get one of these made for the 1 applicable corner i have... how tall, how wide?
dave
Mark Audio CHR-70
Guys,
This is the 1st Mark Audio driver we have done up -- it gets transformed. After we have had a chance to get the top-of-the-line Alpair 10 broken in, another listening session will be in hand to evaluate how much.
dave
Guys,
This is the 1st Mark Audio driver we have done up -- it gets transformed. After we have had a chance to get the top-of-the-line Alpair 10 broken in, another listening session will be in hand to evaluate how much.
dave
G'day dave,
64cm x 54cm (h x w)
There was a slight mistake in my previous drawing which is now corrected.
Cheers,
Alex
64cm x 54cm (h x w)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
There was a slight mistake in my previous drawing which is now corrected.
Cheers,
Alex
G'day,
I recorded my listening room today.
I only have a cheap electret lapel mic and an average laptop soundcard.
So the track is probably rolled off in the bass, but does give you some idea of what I'm listening to.
You'll need to refer back to my previous posts for details of the vintage speakers.
In summary:
- 1970 something vintage BR - no port, just a hole in the back
- 6.5" woofers with rolled paper edge (no separate surround) and cone tweeters - all EnABL'd as per Bud's method
- baffle and external cabinet edges - all EnABL'd using duct tape blocks stuck directly onto cabinet.
- cabinet internal walls - all EnABL'd using duct tape blocks on contact paper sheets.
The WAV track is 44 seconds long - MONO - 8.5mb and you can download it from here.
I hope to do some recording of EnABL'd vs. Non-EnABL'd in the future - in stereo with decent dynamic mics!
Cheers,
Alex
I recorded my listening room today.
I only have a cheap electret lapel mic and an average laptop soundcard.
So the track is probably rolled off in the bass, but does give you some idea of what I'm listening to.
You'll need to refer back to my previous posts for details of the vintage speakers.
In summary:
- 1970 something vintage BR - no port, just a hole in the back
- 6.5" woofers with rolled paper edge (no separate surround) and cone tweeters - all EnABL'd as per Bud's method
- baffle and external cabinet edges - all EnABL'd using duct tape blocks stuck directly onto cabinet.
- cabinet internal walls - all EnABL'd using duct tape blocks on contact paper sheets.
The WAV track is 44 seconds long - MONO - 8.5mb and you can download it from here.
I hope to do some recording of EnABL'd vs. Non-EnABL'd in the future - in stereo with decent dynamic mics!
Cheers,
Alex
Owie! Following these threads makes my head want to implode....
I'm considering oval drivers for open baffle line arrays, with the thought that center to center distances will be smaller for a given cone area, reducing the effects of comb filtering artifacts, etc. Also, I expect that the elliptical cones will be stiffer for a given cone area, moving some of the nasty breakup modes out of a given driver's operating region as defined by the crossover filter.
I have a couple of drivers I'm considering for open baffle array duty. I first tried some small Samsung oval drivers from Electronic Goldmine, no doubt originally intended for stand-alone TV duty. The midrange presence from a pair of 16X arrays of these divers in some improvised cardboard baffles was amazing, but I was bothered by a total lack of bass and some midrange rastiness at high volume. The bass problem could be fixed by bringing my subwoofer back into play, as well as by operating my array on a larger baffle (I started out with an 18" wide baffle). Still, I was intrigued enough to buy some somewhat larger Samsung drivers from Goldmine (same height, more width), and some 3" X 5" JVC buyout drivers from Parts Express that actually have some TS parameters. I'm pretty much resigned to applying some sort of treatment to the cones of either driver to smooth out upper midrange response. (I'm considering an array of tweeters with electronic crossover so that the oval drivers will not have so much work to do). I might consider EnABL treatments if the payoff is large enough to justify treating 32 (count them!) drivers. Has anyone performed the EnABL treatment on oval drivers? What sort of coating technique would be recommended for initial treatment? These are oval drivers with straight sides, treated cloth surround, paper cone (at least that's the case with the Samsungs. I expect much the same with the JVC drivers, but will know more when they arrive next week).
I'm considering oval drivers for open baffle line arrays, with the thought that center to center distances will be smaller for a given cone area, reducing the effects of comb filtering artifacts, etc. Also, I expect that the elliptical cones will be stiffer for a given cone area, moving some of the nasty breakup modes out of a given driver's operating region as defined by the crossover filter.
I have a couple of drivers I'm considering for open baffle array duty. I first tried some small Samsung oval drivers from Electronic Goldmine, no doubt originally intended for stand-alone TV duty. The midrange presence from a pair of 16X arrays of these divers in some improvised cardboard baffles was amazing, but I was bothered by a total lack of bass and some midrange rastiness at high volume. The bass problem could be fixed by bringing my subwoofer back into play, as well as by operating my array on a larger baffle (I started out with an 18" wide baffle). Still, I was intrigued enough to buy some somewhat larger Samsung drivers from Goldmine (same height, more width), and some 3" X 5" JVC buyout drivers from Parts Express that actually have some TS parameters. I'm pretty much resigned to applying some sort of treatment to the cones of either driver to smooth out upper midrange response. (I'm considering an array of tweeters with electronic crossover so that the oval drivers will not have so much work to do). I might consider EnABL treatments if the payoff is large enough to justify treating 32 (count them!) drivers. Has anyone performed the EnABL treatment on oval drivers? What sort of coating technique would be recommended for initial treatment? These are oval drivers with straight sides, treated cloth surround, paper cone (at least that's the case with the Samsungs. I expect much the same with the JVC drivers, but will know more when they arrive next week).
wrenchone
Ovals are not treated any differently than round drivers. At least for the basic pattern applications. The mid cone rings are a mystery, mostly because I have not investigated these yet. I do have some, with whizzer cones attached, to check out, but have not gotten around to doing so yet.
If you want to provide a good rez picture from either on axis or just off axis, of the drivers you are considering, I can provide a faux application onto the picture so you know where to apply the patterns.
If you have a vector art program, like Corel, or Vector Works or Illustrator I can provide you with some Corel native vector files you can easily distort to provide pattern guides for the oval portion. After you have a set at the outer and inner edges of the main cone I can walk you through how to find the major resonance point in the mid cone area and you can correct that as well. Whizzers, if any are on these drivers, are fairly straight forward, once we have a look at their physical construction.
So, a couple of pictures and you are on your way.
Bud
Ovals are not treated any differently than round drivers. At least for the basic pattern applications. The mid cone rings are a mystery, mostly because I have not investigated these yet. I do have some, with whizzer cones attached, to check out, but have not gotten around to doing so yet.
If you want to provide a good rez picture from either on axis or just off axis, of the drivers you are considering, I can provide a faux application onto the picture so you know where to apply the patterns.
If you have a vector art program, like Corel, or Vector Works or Illustrator I can provide you with some Corel native vector files you can easily distort to provide pattern guides for the oval portion. After you have a set at the outer and inner edges of the main cone I can walk you through how to find the major resonance point in the mid cone area and you can correct that as well. Whizzers, if any are on these drivers, are fairly straight forward, once we have a look at their physical construction.
So, a couple of pictures and you are on your way.
Bud
Greetings peoples, I have been quietly trying to make sense of the whole enabl process over the last few months, the biggest problem being wading thru such monstrous threads forgetting to leave a trail of bread crumbs behind me and invariably getting lost. My interest as far as speakers goes is soley in the open baffle camp. Any thoughts on how you would approach enabling open baffles. Also is it my understanding that as far as enabling is concerned its not worth it with say 15 inch woofers( in ob) with respect to any meaningful improvement?
thanks in advance fergs
by the way has anyone done a template for the Visaton b200
thanks in advance fergs
by the way has anyone done a template for the Visaton b200
fergs1 said:
I don't think the fellow in The Netherlands with Silver Iris & Augie would agree with you 🙂
I've done B200, i used templates on hand. Remember that there are really only 2 templates (ignoring the driver specific cone shaped ones which i've not used), scaled in size to suit the driver you are doing.
dave
Greetings Dave, would you have a link to said Dutch gentleman and his experiences as I would be keen to read. thankyou
cheers fergs
cheers fergs
fergs1 said:
G'day fergs1,
Yes I can help with this.
Can you post a photo and dimensions of your OB?
Cheers,
Alex
My JVC 3 x 5 oval drivers just came in today. They have some fairly supple treated cloth surrounds, and some rudimentary treatment to control cone breakup in the form of two beads of glue each placed on the long sides of the cone at the junction between cone and surround. Pictures will follow. I plan to gin up a 16X array with a piece of cheap plywood before I apply any treatments.
GENERAL NOTICE!!!!
For all of those of you who have not yet begun to use those neat kits that Ed provided you with and have not tripped over Lon's new thread go here now! We are going to get Lon up and EnABLing, along with Planet 10's trifoil Damar pattern and Puzzlecoat pre-EnABL activities.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1861199#post1861199
Bud
For all of those of you who have not yet begun to use those neat kits that Ed provided you with and have not tripped over Lon's new thread go here now! We are going to get Lon up and EnABLing, along with Planet 10's trifoil Damar pattern and Puzzlecoat pre-EnABL activities.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1861199#post1861199
Bud
enABL for Headphone cups?
Hi, I've read online that this mod proves benificial to headphone cups as well (particularly Grado units), I was wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction as to how this mod applies to headphones?
Hi, I've read online that this mod proves benificial to headphone cups as well (particularly Grado units), I was wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction as to how this mod applies to headphones?
Treating headphones is a particularly daunting task.
The diaphragms are very delicate and easily disarrayed to the point of inoperable junk. Forget all Sony devices, you cannot get to the driver surface without wrecking the things. Grado HP's can be treated and according to J. Grado, who has a pair, it is more than worthwhile to do. It is, however, even more fraught with danger than others, due to the extreme thinness of the diaphragm. It took a bit to talk Grado out of applying the process by hand 10 years ago, in their plant, due to the absolute need to use Rapidiograph pens to apply the patterns. They could not convince the Japanese firm, that apparently makes everyone's diaphragms, to pre-print the plastic sheet before shaping, so the Grado project went nowhere.
Taking a set of Grado phones apart is relatively easy, but there are a lot of interference fit pieces that use a light liquid to stick them together. Once you have the driver assembly isolated it will come apart, but the coil connection wires are VERY exposed and you can easily break them. Grado will sell you another driver assembly however. I would recommend you not tackle Grado headphones first. Probably better to attempt some of the Koss Pro 4 A repop's in stead.
Just to get the hang of working with the thin diaphragms, those cheap molded sets that came with various portable CD players over the last 15 years work very well. They also sound a lot better once treated. I have also treated older, cheap, ear buds quite successfully, though you must carve off the protection plate..
If there is interest we could start yet another thread, just to cover headphones. They are very rewarding to treat and if you have the technical pens and a little 75% cut gloss coating material, it is fairly quick, once you can access the driver surface. For many units you must cut away the protective plate to do this, as they are securely glued together.
Bud
The diaphragms are very delicate and easily disarrayed to the point of inoperable junk. Forget all Sony devices, you cannot get to the driver surface without wrecking the things. Grado HP's can be treated and according to J. Grado, who has a pair, it is more than worthwhile to do. It is, however, even more fraught with danger than others, due to the extreme thinness of the diaphragm. It took a bit to talk Grado out of applying the process by hand 10 years ago, in their plant, due to the absolute need to use Rapidiograph pens to apply the patterns. They could not convince the Japanese firm, that apparently makes everyone's diaphragms, to pre-print the plastic sheet before shaping, so the Grado project went nowhere.
Taking a set of Grado phones apart is relatively easy, but there are a lot of interference fit pieces that use a light liquid to stick them together. Once you have the driver assembly isolated it will come apart, but the coil connection wires are VERY exposed and you can easily break them. Grado will sell you another driver assembly however. I would recommend you not tackle Grado headphones first. Probably better to attempt some of the Koss Pro 4 A repop's in stead.
Just to get the hang of working with the thin diaphragms, those cheap molded sets that came with various portable CD players over the last 15 years work very well. They also sound a lot better once treated. I have also treated older, cheap, ear buds quite successfully, though you must carve off the protection plate..
If there is interest we could start yet another thread, just to cover headphones. They are very rewarding to treat and if you have the technical pens and a little 75% cut gloss coating material, it is fairly quick, once you can access the driver surface. For many units you must cut away the protective plate to do this, as they are securely glued together.
Bud
Hey Bud, thanks for the response,
Driver aside, how about improvements in the chamber/cup of the headphone?
I have a pair of Alessandro MS-2i, and I'm wondering how (if possible) can it be "enABL'd" as I've read people have done this to their Grado headphones.
That, or I might coat the interior of the cup with Second Skin spectrum to dampen the cup
Driver aside, how about improvements in the chamber/cup of the headphone?
I have a pair of Alessandro MS-2i, and I'm wondering how (if possible) can it be "enABL'd" as I've read people have done this to their Grado headphones.
That, or I might coat the interior of the cup with Second Skin spectrum to dampen the cup
Put on your imagineering hat before reading the following.
In a general sense there are two types of "cup".
For an enclosed cup, with solid walls, I would EnABL the inside surface of the outer edge of the cup, about a full pattern width below where the bezel stops when it is mounted. Treat it just as you would a cabinet EnABL in that the entire distance around the shape is the length of the pattern rings, just as the circumference of a cone is the "length" for a pattern set applied to it. I would do this before thinking about adding dampening material to the cup. If you need any it will be far less than would be the case without the EnABL pattern in place.
You should also treat both sides of the driver mounting bezel, again using the rules laid out for patterns applied to cones as a guide for size.
You could experiment with another pattern ring about 2/3 of the distance down the cup, towards the center of the cup. I am sure there are resonant nodes that need to be disrupted, but finding them may be a real chore. You can try the tap test we use on cones to find these nodes, but no guarantee of success here. Take a thin solid rod, the end of the pen nib holder for the calligraphy pens works well, and tap in a radial line from center to outer EnABL patten ring. If you can find the nodes in this fashion there will be a slight but noticeable change in "direction" of the decay from the individual tap. Right at the point where this decay changes needs to have an EnABL pattern applied. I have ho experience here, so you will have to decide for yourself. Just learning to distinguish the decay and direction of the decay is time consuming. Might be best to try to discover one on a cone first.
The other type of "cup" is that found on Grado and other open air headphones. For these you need to think of EnABL as a release agent for every edge that the sound wave detaches from, as it expands and encounters new surfaces. You can treat everyone of these and have a noticeable improvement in clarity, but some of them will be a real problem to get done. As a general rule I treat the surfaces that will be flat to my ear, just before they join to a vertical surface and just after they begin from an opening that has a vertical surface that goes toward the driver surface. This eliminates most of the need to treat those vertical surfaces, even though doing so will provide greater clarity too. Some of these surfaces are very narrow, just the edge of a tube basically, but it is important to pattern them if at all possible. If it is not possible then resign yourself to patterning the end of the tube nearest your ear, on the inside of the tube surface.
Now, before we go further I think the moderators should decide whether we need to start a new thread. Cal?
Bud
In a general sense there are two types of "cup".
For an enclosed cup, with solid walls, I would EnABL the inside surface of the outer edge of the cup, about a full pattern width below where the bezel stops when it is mounted. Treat it just as you would a cabinet EnABL in that the entire distance around the shape is the length of the pattern rings, just as the circumference of a cone is the "length" for a pattern set applied to it. I would do this before thinking about adding dampening material to the cup. If you need any it will be far less than would be the case without the EnABL pattern in place.
You should also treat both sides of the driver mounting bezel, again using the rules laid out for patterns applied to cones as a guide for size.
You could experiment with another pattern ring about 2/3 of the distance down the cup, towards the center of the cup. I am sure there are resonant nodes that need to be disrupted, but finding them may be a real chore. You can try the tap test we use on cones to find these nodes, but no guarantee of success here. Take a thin solid rod, the end of the pen nib holder for the calligraphy pens works well, and tap in a radial line from center to outer EnABL patten ring. If you can find the nodes in this fashion there will be a slight but noticeable change in "direction" of the decay from the individual tap. Right at the point where this decay changes needs to have an EnABL pattern applied. I have ho experience here, so you will have to decide for yourself. Just learning to distinguish the decay and direction of the decay is time consuming. Might be best to try to discover one on a cone first.
The other type of "cup" is that found on Grado and other open air headphones. For these you need to think of EnABL as a release agent for every edge that the sound wave detaches from, as it expands and encounters new surfaces. You can treat everyone of these and have a noticeable improvement in clarity, but some of them will be a real problem to get done. As a general rule I treat the surfaces that will be flat to my ear, just before they join to a vertical surface and just after they begin from an opening that has a vertical surface that goes toward the driver surface. This eliminates most of the need to treat those vertical surfaces, even though doing so will provide greater clarity too. Some of these surfaces are very narrow, just the edge of a tube basically, but it is important to pattern them if at all possible. If it is not possible then resign yourself to patterning the end of the tube nearest your ear, on the inside of the tube surface.
Now, before we go further I think the moderators should decide whether we need to start a new thread. Cal?
Bud