Posting only due to the fact that I have been an Ariel constructor and Karna experimenter for a number of years. Lynn has the opinion that needs to be honored in the thread, obviously, but the thoughts of the average 'schmo' might help shore up the correct assertions he makes.
The only supplement I might add to the conversation's trend is that we owners of Ariels have to find something to do with the boxes we built (pictures attached). They were NOT simple to build; the amount of time just waiting for the glue to dry before the next step was significant, and the significant other was not always thrilled with the reason I was spending so much time in the garage making sawdust and noise. But in retrospect, what a fun time - dreaming at work about getting home for the next step in the process.
So the issue of finding replacement drivers is a real one, not because it is the greatest speaker of the 2020's, but because I love them and have the boxes/crossovers already made. Yes, I managed to purchase a full set of replacement P13 a few years back, but even sitting in the box for 4 years they age and the surrounds dry out. Sad, what is an owner to do? I don't relish the idea of building a new set of monkey coffins at my age and at my townhome...
At the end of the day, this thread is about replacement drivers for the Ariels, and the sad answer is there is none
Could I do better? Sure. Do I need to? Person-specific.
Hmmm, will do just that. In my aging years, purchase with mod might be preferential to build.
The only supplement I might add to the conversation's trend is that we owners of Ariels have to find something to do with the boxes we built (pictures attached). They were NOT simple to build; the amount of time just waiting for the glue to dry before the next step was significant, and the significant other was not always thrilled with the reason I was spending so much time in the garage making sawdust and noise. But in retrospect, what a fun time - dreaming at work about getting home for the next step in the process.
So the issue of finding replacement drivers is a real one, not because it is the greatest speaker of the 2020's, but because I love them and have the boxes/crossovers already made. Yes, I managed to purchase a full set of replacement P13 a few years back, but even sitting in the box for 4 years they age and the surrounds dry out. Sad, what is an owner to do? I don't relish the idea of building a new set of monkey coffins at my age and at my townhome...
At the end of the day, this thread is about replacement drivers for the Ariels, and the sad answer is there is none
Could I do better? Sure. Do I need to? Person-specific.
Never thought about that, but so true. Diff input, VAS, level shift, output stage. O ya, and feedback, lots of lots of feedback.
Again, so true. My thought is they sound 'fine' on my Marantz, but never truly come 'alive' until they feast from the triode. I will not attempt to describe why, even though I am in the engineers camp that measurement matters. The Karna-variant I built measures pretty damn fine, thank you...
Agreed, even though I am not one of those nutcases (I hope). They do fine as HT, but I would be just as content listening to a soundbar when watching movies. As long as I have the subwoofer going. But when it comes to stereo audio, they satisfy.
Hmmm, will do just that. In my aging years, purchase with mod might be preferential to build.
Attachments
The maximum power with all channels driven at a low distortion over the frequency range 20-20kHz is given by some top of the range multichannel amplifiers/receivers. Those that don't are all but certain to have a significantly lower output under these conditions compared to the number quoted for 2 channels driven and it may be as low as 10% of the advertised number.
The first number to read on a spec sheet is the maximum power drawn from the power supply. Divide that by the number of channels and a typical efficiency for a class D or class A/B amplifier and that will give you a feel for the maximum achievable. In practise it is likely to be lower than this in order to meet low distortion over 20-20kHz.
Another thing to watch out for is an inability of the circuitry to handle the current into a 4 ohm load. It is common to have a "4 ohm" toggle which then limits the current and hence the power output under these conditions.
Little power is taken by tweeters. In a 3 way a midrange + tweeter may take a decent proportion compared to a reasonably efficient woofer but less so for an inefficient woofer with a reasonable low frequency extension in a small enclosure.
No. Unlike electronics where you know what an undistorted output should be this is not the case with speakers. There is no correct off-axis response and most of the work done waggling your eardrums comes from reflections and not the direct sound. We tend to know what is technically incorrect for speakers and what is technically reasonable but there is no single correct. To confuse things further some home audio speakers include behaviour that is technically incorrect but sounds attractive. Whether this is considered a positive or a negative attribute is down to the viewpoint of the listener. Such behaviour is of course rarely labelled a sound effect by those promoting or taking a positive view.
Gentle horns tend to be called waveguides and these tend to change the frequency response which is fully correctable by equalisation, raise the acoustic efficiency which lowers the level of motor distortion compared to the signal and, most importantly, changes the radiation pattern of the driver for the better if competently implemented. Many, possibly most, modern high technical performance speakers use waveguides on some of the drivers.
Deep horns for home use have a significantly different set of advantages and disadvantages which are irrelevant for many because such large speakers are unacceptable in the living space.
I'd like to amplify on Andy's excellent response. Looking at the basics, loudspeakers convert audio-frequency electricity into a fluctuating magnetic field, which reacts against a static magnetic field in the gap, which then generates acceleration in the voice coil former, which transmits that acceleration to the loudspeaker cone (or dome). The accelerated cone (or dome) radiates acoustic energy into the room, but extremely inefficiently ... 1% conversion is considered better than average, and 5 to 10% is typical for "high-efficiency" professional PA and theater speakers.
We're not done yet. The requirement for full-range reproduction asks for 20 Hz to 20 kHz, which is a range in wavelengths of 17 meters to 17mm. This is a ridiculous requirement even for an RF-band transmitting antenna, which would require diplexers or switching to pull off the feat. A loudspeaker isn't merely a passive antenna, but a 4-step electroacoustic transducer, which implies inevitable nonlinear distortion and low conversion efficiency.
Still not done! We haven't considered the polar pattern yet. If the transducer is smaller than the radiated wavelength, it will act like a point source, and radiate omnidirectionally. If the transducer is larger than the emitted wavelength, it will beam and become directional.
Still not there! Direct-radiators are constant-acceleration devices. Translated into English, this means that excursion increases at a rate of 12 dB/octave as frequency goes down. This is why we can't use a 1" tweeter as a full-range driver ... we have to have multiway devices, or sacrifice VHF performance from 3 kHz and above when using a 5" to 7" full-range driver. Since increased excursion means increased IM distortion, this is the most important function of an electrical crossover ... protecting MF and HF drivers from excess excursion. A secondary function is in-band frequency equalization and inter-driver phase control in the crossover overlap region ... the inter-driver phase angle controls the vertical polar pattern.
As you can see, a loudspeaker has to do many things at once; it's frankly a wonder they work at all. In practice, with the drivers we have available, it's not physically possible to optimize all parameters at once, despite the glossy brochures and proud marketing of $100,000 loudspeakers.
It's physics and limitations of materials science, which are only a little better than what was used in the mid-Thirties Jim Lansing "Iconic" 2-way studio monitor. Rather shockingly, when it comes to 15" woofers (as used in the Iconic), paper is still the best material, some 80 years later. The aircraft aluminum alloy used in the diaphragm of the Iconic HF driver is bettered by beryllium at pretty frightening cost, and widely-used titanium is not actually better, but merely more durable than aluminum. In some ways, titanium is worse than aluminum, with more severe breakup modes in the VHF range.
What's better is computer modeling and measurement techniques, as well as the underlying theory. That is far better than anything available in the Thirties. So there's no longer any technical excuse for bad loudspeakers, within the constraints of cost and materials science. But thanks to the limitations of cost and materials science, there's no way to optimize all parameters at once. It can't be done, so the designer has to optimize some parameters and set aside others. That's why there is no perfect loudspeaker, and there won't be for the foreseeable future.
Last edited:
...which means import and custom tax and high shipping costs when you are located in Belgium. So multiply price by almost two.
That said we have distributors in EU for Dayton and others US brands but sometimes it is cheaper to find european manufacturers.
For those willing to read German, there are a gazillion of very good and well documented DIY loudspeaker designs out there. Take a look at "Hobby Hifi" and "Klang & Ton" magazines. If you can read an enclosure drawing and xover schematics, you're 90% there.
A sketch of your 68m^2 room, plus your decision on bi-amping the main speakers would stimulate the next level of discussion. Can you bi-amp using channels from your 9.2 HT amp with a 5.0 or 5.1 arrangement? Do you have access to a good woodshop, or do you plan to use a local CNC contractor?
The woodshop capability often sets the design direction.
=======
For uniform tone, consider a common 1" dome tweeter + 6" midbass covering 20kHz down to -F3 = 42Hz in a ported center channel cabinet, and -F3=38Hz for the larger volume ported side channels. The main channels would use the same 1" dome tweeter + SEALED 6" midbass with a SEALED 12" woofer for powerful fast transient bass down to -F3=37Hz.
=====
A few cabinet pictures of sealed 12" woofer options.
A 12" in a sealed 3cuft volume can produce fast transient bass with -F3 ~35Hz.
--Front woofer: A ~15" wide front baffle is required: 1" tweeter + 6" midrange + 12" woofer.
--Side woofer: A ~10" wide front baffle for a 1" tweeter plus 6" midrange, plus a 17" deep side baffle for the 12" woofer creates the required volume.
========
The side speakers can use the same 1" tweeter + 6" midrange in a modest 2cuft ported volume.
The front center channel speaker uses the same 1" tweeter + 6" midrange in a ported 0.7cuft volume.
The woodshop capability often sets the design direction.
=======
For uniform tone, consider a common 1" dome tweeter + 6" midbass covering 20kHz down to -F3 = 42Hz in a ported center channel cabinet, and -F3=38Hz for the larger volume ported side channels. The main channels would use the same 1" dome tweeter + SEALED 6" midbass with a SEALED 12" woofer for powerful fast transient bass down to -F3=37Hz.
=====
A few cabinet pictures of sealed 12" woofer options.
A 12" in a sealed 3cuft volume can produce fast transient bass with -F3 ~35Hz.
--Front woofer: A ~15" wide front baffle is required: 1" tweeter + 6" midrange + 12" woofer.
--Side woofer: A ~10" wide front baffle for a 1" tweeter plus 6" midrange, plus a 17" deep side baffle for the 12" woofer creates the required volume.
========
The side speakers can use the same 1" tweeter + 6" midrange in a modest 2cuft ported volume.
The front center channel speaker uses the same 1" tweeter + 6" midrange in a ported 0.7cuft volume.
Attachments
Hey guys. Sorry for not responding more quickly, but my stephmother just died so i was kind of busy.
So according the many answers to my "ideal speaker", that's a big NO. Well I already had an idea but had to make sure.
First things first: I made a quick drawing with measurements of my living room(in cm's):Livingroom - Album on Imgur
@Lynn Olson
Thanks for the info but 6000euros/speaker????? There must be a lot of gold and diamonds in there!! This is way above my paygrade.
I thought Marantz and Denon were pretty much the same. Am i wrong?
@krivium
Do you know some good european shops for speaker parts? I've tried finding a european shop that sells Zaph kits but had no luck. Our choice for online audio shops seems very limited.
@ andy19191
The specs on the Denon mentioned 710W total consumption. So if 8 channels are driven I should have around 85W per channel? The amp can handle 4ohm loads.
What I meant with biamp: 1 channel for woofer and mid and another for woofer and tweeter. From what i read in the manual, i should be able to select the hight speakers outputs and change them to front speaker for biamping.
@LineSource
So far i only have basic woodworking tools and experience. I rececntly bought a router and was planning on installing a circular saw under the board to create a table saw. So with a little bit of patience and good hands I think I should be able to handle building a good speaker.
If I use several subwoofers around the living room, wouldn't the 12" drivers in the front speakers be kind of useless?
I also wanted to use 2 (smaller)woofers for all the front speakers so that I can use the same setup for the center channel when it is placed horizontally. For example:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZD3C-enclosure-vented.pdf
So according the many answers to my "ideal speaker", that's a big NO. Well I already had an idea but had to make sure.
First things first: I made a quick drawing with measurements of my living room(in cm's):Livingroom - Album on Imgur
@Lynn Olson
Thanks for the info but 6000euros/speaker????? There must be a lot of gold and diamonds in there!! This is way above my paygrade.
I thought Marantz and Denon were pretty much the same. Am i wrong?
@krivium
Do you know some good european shops for speaker parts? I've tried finding a european shop that sells Zaph kits but had no luck. Our choice for online audio shops seems very limited.
@ andy19191
The specs on the Denon mentioned 710W total consumption. So if 8 channels are driven I should have around 85W per channel? The amp can handle 4ohm loads.
What I meant with biamp: 1 channel for woofer and mid and another for woofer and tweeter. From what i read in the manual, i should be able to select the hight speakers outputs and change them to front speaker for biamping.
@LineSource
So far i only have basic woodworking tools and experience. I rececntly bought a router and was planning on installing a circular saw under the board to create a table saw. So with a little bit of patience and good hands I think I should be able to handle building a good speaker.
If I use several subwoofers around the living room, wouldn't the 12" drivers in the front speakers be kind of useless?
I also wanted to use 2 (smaller)woofers for all the front speakers so that I can use the same setup for the center channel when it is placed horizontally. For example:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZD3C-enclosure-vented.pdf
As I wrote before, take a look at Hobby Hifi and Klang&Ton magazines. They contain ads and links to the many stores in Europe. These publications really should be on your list for daily reading if you're interested DIY speakers and based in Europe.
Did you check out the other suggestion? DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
He's based in Europe and could provide you quite a bit of options to choose from.
He's based in Europe and could provide you quite a bit of options to choose from.
I was a fairly early builder of the Ariels (mine were completed before the ‘simplified’ cabinet drawings were released) and can offer a little anecdotal information -
1) As Lynn mentioned, the speakers were aimed towards a very specific goal, namely people interested in low-power tube amps in the 1990’s. There were not many speakers available that played nicely with Single Ended amplifiers at that time and it was very obvious that if you wanted SE, you also needed to build speakers to work with the amps. So the Ariel was born as a DIY project, and I was one of the people who built them.
2) The overall sound is absolutely dictated by the P13, and everything else in the design was chosen to let the P13 make it’s music beautifully and have a fighting chance to make some bass. The speaker is quite beautiful sounding and does an amazing amount of the audiophile stuff while staying supremely musical.
3) Yes, they are very sensitive to amplifiers, and also to crossover capacitors. I agree with Lynn that solid state amps don’t sound very good through them. My favorite amps were a zero-feedback SE KT66, PP EL34, and essentially any EL84 amp I used, because it’s pretty darn hard to make the EL84 sound bad.
4) Home theater and the Ariels - Hahahahhahaha... No. Don’t bother. Because they will not be sounding their best with a HT receiver’s amplifier section and they don't have the dynamics and excursion to gracefully do all the ridiculous effects that modern movie mixes have. As others have said, and I firmly and completely agree, HT and music should be two entirely different systems, even in the same room.
5) The cabinets, including the later revisions, are ridiculously difficult to build. On a scale of 1-10, they are a solid 8.5 - 9. Only a folded bass horn would be more difficult because of the multiple miters and the sheer size of the construction. (Or something like a Wilson or Focal clone that has multiple boxes and funny facets)
All that aside, I will mention that when I had the Ariels and an appropriate amp I had the HiFi system that I was the most happy with and kept much of the system unchanged for years because I just loved buying records and finding all this amazing music. They are a supremely musical speaker and absolutely beguiling, and in my opinion reached their stated goals quite successfully. I rather miss them.
1) As Lynn mentioned, the speakers were aimed towards a very specific goal, namely people interested in low-power tube amps in the 1990’s. There were not many speakers available that played nicely with Single Ended amplifiers at that time and it was very obvious that if you wanted SE, you also needed to build speakers to work with the amps. So the Ariel was born as a DIY project, and I was one of the people who built them.
2) The overall sound is absolutely dictated by the P13, and everything else in the design was chosen to let the P13 make it’s music beautifully and have a fighting chance to make some bass. The speaker is quite beautiful sounding and does an amazing amount of the audiophile stuff while staying supremely musical.
3) Yes, they are very sensitive to amplifiers, and also to crossover capacitors. I agree with Lynn that solid state amps don’t sound very good through them. My favorite amps were a zero-feedback SE KT66, PP EL34, and essentially any EL84 amp I used, because it’s pretty darn hard to make the EL84 sound bad.
4) Home theater and the Ariels - Hahahahhahaha... No. Don’t bother. Because they will not be sounding their best with a HT receiver’s amplifier section and they don't have the dynamics and excursion to gracefully do all the ridiculous effects that modern movie mixes have. As others have said, and I firmly and completely agree, HT and music should be two entirely different systems, even in the same room.
5) The cabinets, including the later revisions, are ridiculously difficult to build. On a scale of 1-10, they are a solid 8.5 - 9. Only a folded bass horn would be more difficult because of the multiple miters and the sheer size of the construction. (Or something like a Wilson or Focal clone that has multiple boxes and funny facets)
All that aside, I will mention that when I had the Ariels and an appropriate amp I had the HiFi system that I was the most happy with and kept much of the system unchanged for years because I just loved buying records and finding all this amazing music. They are a supremely musical speaker and absolutely beguiling, and in my opinion reached their stated goals quite successfully. I rather miss them.
Last edited:
Hi kineticmac,
First condolences to you and your family.
About shop in EU, well i have experience with some in France and in Deutschland.
TLHP is great but as they are located near my home i can't tell about remote orders but they seems to be ok. Audiophonics is fine too. I've ordered from lautsprechershop.de too and i had no complaints about them.
There is shop in the Nederlands too and UK that have good reputation but i've never ordered from them and would not advice about them nor you to go UK as brexit maybe a cause of concern.
Overall you'll have to look around there must be good place in Belgium too...
Dayton distributor is in Germany if you wan't to go with Zaph option but i can't help more than that about it.
Academia50 and Wesayso idea about Troels Gravesen offer have to be taken seriously, as the driver he use are often easier to source in EU, project are well documented and serious contenders.
First condolences to you and your family.
About shop in EU, well i have experience with some in France and in Deutschland.
TLHP is great but as they are located near my home i can't tell about remote orders but they seems to be ok. Audiophonics is fine too. I've ordered from lautsprechershop.de too and i had no complaints about them.
There is shop in the Nederlands too and UK that have good reputation but i've never ordered from them and would not advice about them nor you to go UK as brexit maybe a cause of concern.
Overall you'll have to look around there must be good place in Belgium too...
Dayton distributor is in Germany if you wan't to go with Zaph option but i can't help more than that about it.
Academia50 and Wesayso idea about Troels Gravesen offer have to be taken seriously, as the driver he use are often easier to source in EU, project are well documented and serious contenders.
Last edited:
Thanks Krivium.
And thanks Academia50 and Wesayso for the suggestion. I was still looking into Troels Gravesen.
Haven't seen TLHP and Audiophinics . They look nice! Lots of brands.
I've searched Troels Gravesen and there are indeed a few nice speakers in there. Most are too big or ugly or are a 2-way though.
This is a contender(altough crossover is much more expensive):
CNO-GRANDE together with
CENTER-641
Or should I go with this:
Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
I've been wondering if these expensive caps are worth the money. Sometimes the crossovers are more expensive than the whole speaker!
BTW Belgium is retarded when it comes to online shops.
Dayton EU distributor is Intertechnik.
I think Audyn caps is from them too.
If you want 'audiophile' caps for my preference their 'cap plus' range is quite good and relatively well priced.
Does it make a difference? Well within my own electronic circuit i can say yes they do. Are they worth their price: up to you to decide for yourself. Here again only experience could tell you.
I've not used them in loudspeaker filters so i can't tell ( i'm a dsp multiamp guy) but i used something more or less similar in technology ( closer to mundorf though) to protect a rare tweeter (on one of my monkey coffin) and like the result despite them being 'high' capacity ( 2x 100uf in parallel). That wasn't cheap but worth it in my view...
Those cap ( 1500v/600v film caps) can be found there: Ask Jan First ® ; electron tubes and more
That said in loudspeaker analog passive crossover every components influence the other so be prepared to experiment... i'm sure you'll find help from goodwilling experienced people here ( i'm not one of them about that!).
I think Audyn caps is from them too.
If you want 'audiophile' caps for my preference their 'cap plus' range is quite good and relatively well priced.
Does it make a difference? Well within my own electronic circuit i can say yes they do. Are they worth their price: up to you to decide for yourself. Here again only experience could tell you.
I've not used them in loudspeaker filters so i can't tell ( i'm a dsp multiamp guy) but i used something more or less similar in technology ( closer to mundorf though) to protect a rare tweeter (on one of my monkey coffin) and like the result despite them being 'high' capacity ( 2x 100uf in parallel). That wasn't cheap but worth it in my view...
Those cap ( 1500v/600v film caps) can be found there: Ask Jan First ® ; electron tubes and more
That said in loudspeaker analog passive crossover every components influence the other so be prepared to experiment... i'm sure you'll find help from goodwilling experienced people here ( i'm not one of them about that!).
Last edited:
One other point that I don’t think has yet been discussed is the not so simple passive crossover design for the Ariel, or the smaller stand mount derivation.
I can remember reading the lengthy papers on the evolution of this design when I built my first DIY speaker in the mid ‘90s, and the combination of the complex enclosure and crossover - which if I recall correctly had to be very precisely tuned to the specific tweeter selected - is what discouraged me. I did however build something much simpler with the Vifa P13, and ended up using one of their softdome tweeters and simple first order XO.
Was quite happy with them for several years until I fell down the Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole of single driver / full range speakers.
So were one to attempt to closely clone either the dual folded line enclosure design of the original Aerial, or just the system’s performance, using all modern drivers, be prepared for a fun ride.
As for the question of AVR/home theatre receivers, I can certainly agree with Lynn that they are not all created equal, and while my experience stops before the level of the separates of the caliber and price range he describes, I’ve been quite satisfied with the performance and ease of use/simplicity of a surround receiver. With his industry experience, I think he’d have to begrudgingly agree that current models offer a tremendous value of features in one single box, and that auto calibration systems such as Audyssey, etc, and make life easy for the “just an average schmo” crowd. I should get T-shirts printed.
The particular AVR I’m currently using is a several years old Onkyo that allows for full digital crossover and assigning of one pair of amp channels for bi-amping of front mains pair. Convenient, but definitely not as transparent or well integrated as a properly designed passive crossover.
I can remember reading the lengthy papers on the evolution of this design when I built my first DIY speaker in the mid ‘90s, and the combination of the complex enclosure and crossover - which if I recall correctly had to be very precisely tuned to the specific tweeter selected - is what discouraged me. I did however build something much simpler with the Vifa P13, and ended up using one of their softdome tweeters and simple first order XO.
Was quite happy with them for several years until I fell down the Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole of single driver / full range speakers.
So were one to attempt to closely clone either the dual folded line enclosure design of the original Aerial, or just the system’s performance, using all modern drivers, be prepared for a fun ride.
As for the question of AVR/home theatre receivers, I can certainly agree with Lynn that they are not all created equal, and while my experience stops before the level of the separates of the caliber and price range he describes, I’ve been quite satisfied with the performance and ease of use/simplicity of a surround receiver. With his industry experience, I think he’d have to begrudgingly agree that current models offer a tremendous value of features in one single box, and that auto calibration systems such as Audyssey, etc, and make life easy for the “just an average schmo” crowd. I should get T-shirts printed.
The particular AVR I’m currently using is a several years old Onkyo that allows for full digital crossover and assigning of one pair of amp channels for bi-amping of front mains pair. Convenient, but definitely not as transparent or well integrated as a properly designed passive crossover.
Well said Lynn…
Given the compromises that have to made, one could take the best loudspeakers (not necessarily the priciest) and althou they all have a valid set of compromises can sound very different. The art of loudspeaker design is choosing those compromises that best suit the listenint needs of the listener.
dave
That Vifa P13WH was hard to mess up!
Always good to reread Mr. Lynn Olson, IMO. We are far too quick with opinions, and often drown out very considered posts with quick reactions.
The Vifa P13WH-00-08 was a theoretically marvellous 4-5" polycone midbass:
TBH, I do think the polycone Peerless 830860 is not wildly different:
Peerless HDS PPB 830860
If progress is possible, here is a Troels Gravesen notion to get rid of the 1.5kHz dip in response. A surround edge-effect as I understand it.
W12CY003
As for the whole MTM or MTTM thing. I like it. The midbasses work at 1/4 power for the same SPL, so must distort less.
A thing I have never got is why the Ariels sounded better with valves than solid state. And I know valves tended to higher output impedance. Ah well...
Always good to reread Mr. Lynn Olson, IMO. We are far too quick with opinions, and often drown out very considered posts with quick reactions.
The Vifa P13WH-00-08 was a theoretically marvellous 4-5" polycone midbass:
TBH, I do think the polycone Peerless 830860 is not wildly different:
Peerless HDS PPB 830860
If progress is possible, here is a Troels Gravesen notion to get rid of the 1.5kHz dip in response. A surround edge-effect as I understand it.
W12CY003
As for the whole MTM or MTTM thing. I like it. The midbasses work at 1/4 power for the same SPL, so must distort less.
A thing I have never got is why the Ariels sounded better with valves than solid state. And I know valves tended to higher output impedance. Ah well...
My condolences; that must have difficult for you, and hifi always has to take a back seat to the events of the real world. I wish you the best, and hope your family is doing OK.
They have the same ownership and the same feature sets, as well as user interface, but are "tuned" a little differently. My guess is this is done with different op-amps and different electrolytic caps, which can noticeably alter the sound of solid-state equipment. Traditionally, there is a Denon house sound and a Marantz one, going back to the Seventies when they were quite separate companies, and Denon always had a sharper, more "technical" sound while Marantz always harked back to its made-in-the-USA 50's and 60's sound ... lush, very musical and involving, and worth every penny of its premium price. I always thought that vintage vacuum-tube Marantz was way, way better than McIntosh. There's still a pale shadow of the classic Marantz sound in contemporary receivers, but a direct comparison with vintage equipment shows how much has been lost in the transition to transistors and the mass market. (Transistor receivers are pretty much mass-market by definition.)
Vintage, made-in-the-USA Marantz equipment were never receivers, but preamps, power amps, and the famous Marantz 10B tuner, the product that bankrupted the company and forced the sale to the Japanese. (It was rumored that Marantz lost more than $100 on every tuner they sold ... and that was $750 back in the late Sixties, equal to $5250 now.)
That aside, my previous home-theater receiver was a Denon, which was well-made, but I never cared for its sound that much. The Marantz AV8003/MM8003 separates, which I bought as refurbished units, were actually half-decent at playing music, and some of that character is there in the receiver line. I'm pretty sure the engineers "voice" these things so they have the Marantz house sound, since we're talking about made-in-China receivers undoubtedly made on the same production line as Denon (and probably many other brands).
It would be nice if the HT manufacturers offered a simple feature to turn off the inputs of the built-in amplifiers so they could used as a pre/pro without sonic compromise, but nope, nobody offers that. So the pre/pros, without any power amplifiers at all, cost as much as a premium receiver, despite having a lot less in the box.
That said, the simplest way to sonically upgrade a receiver with RCA pre/pro outputs that have at least 2V rms out (many don't) is to get a secondhand hifi grade amplifier for the L and R speakers. As mentioned earlier, Class AB transistor amp technology has essentially been static since the late Seventies, so there are lots and lots of secondhand high-end transistor amps out these selling for modest prices. The market is glutted with pretty good transistor amps, yet buying a receiver compels the buyer to get 7 or more channels of pretty mediocre-quality amps. (Hint: if the amp can't drive a 4-ohm speaker at low distortion from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, it's not a good amplifier.)
One drawback of higher-efficiency speakers is they shine a spotlight on mid-to-lower quality amplifiers, revealing grainy, two-dimensional sound, and harsh, edgy tonality for singers and orchestras. So it's actually not easy to recommend speakers for modern HT receivers ... and unfortunately, I find the sound of modern HT receivers to be not as good as the mid-fi receivers of the Seventies, and those were far from the best at the time. It would be easier to recommend HT receivers if we could skip the mediocre power amps that are built-in, and shop around for a stack of older power amps that sound better and are very reasonably priced. But as always, convenience wins over sound quality ... and not surprisingly, all-in-one sound bars now outsell home theater systems.
Lynn, if your major complaint about the sonic performance of “modern” HT receivers (let’s say anything 21st century?), is as you accurately point out the derated performance of so many of them once you start driving more than the front row channels - only so much juice can be squeezed from the undersized lemon that is the power supply of most of them, it should be kept in mind that from at least the middle of the model line on up, most do provide level outputs for all channels, both the main surround group, and as many as two independent zones for other rooms, etc.
Navigating through the sometimes several hundred page long owners manuals and multiple layers of on screen menus to enable the specific configuration desired is a bit of a character building exercise.
Navigating through the sometimes several hundred page long owners manuals and multiple layers of on screen menus to enable the specific configuration desired is a bit of a character building exercise.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.