Drivers for Ariel speakers

Hey guys,


I want to build a tl line and first tough of building a Thor Speaker but reading about the Ariels changed my mind.
The problem with ariel is that,as most of you know, the Vifa drivers are no longer available.
I've been reading online for replacements and found the following 3 drivers :

1. SB Acoustics SBMFC30-8
SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-8 5" Poly Cone Woofer

2.Peerless NE149W-08
Peerless by Tymphany NE149W-08 5-1/4" Fiber Cone Woofer Speaker 8 Ohm

3.Seas ER15RLY
SEAS Prestige ER15RLY (H1455) 5.5" Reed Paper Cone Woofer

I have no idea which one actually sounds better. That's why i need your expertise. Which one would you go for?
 
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Member
Joined 2004
Paid Member
:D I guess it's not the ideal commute ... maybe I won't be able to help but I've seen people selling their built Ariels from time to time and maybe someone in EU has drivers in their collection if you want to try to find the original Vifa drivers.

Hopefully someone can comment on the suitability of the alternatives you posted and happy building!
 
A man's speakers should exceed his hearing ... or what's a credit card good for?

Have you also researched modern 3-way designs using a SEALED MIDRANGE with Qtc~0.5 - 0.6, in a low resonance cabinet volume?

--Do you have limits on the cabinet dimensions? Drivers+crossover cost? Cabinet shape?
--Sketch your listening room with speaker and listener locations. simulate -- discuss alternatives
--Use a free program to test your hearing.

Diverse cabinet size and shape can support woofers with:
1) 12" sealed in 3cuft volume with -F3 = 37Hz best transients
2) 8" or 9" in a ported 3cuft volume with -F3 = 25Hz. Tall, folded MLTL alignment can be used to reduce resonances.
3) ported 8" in 2.3cuft with -F3 = 28Hz
4) 8" woofers can be mounted on the side panel of a narrow front baffe...
---but a narrow front baffle does not allow edge bevels/rounds to reduce distortion.

1" + 5" + 8" use a "crisp" low Mms 5" midrange, BUT accept a 300-400Hz woofer crossover, Crossovers over ~2.5KHz s create beaming.

1" +6" + 8" use a modern low Le 6" midrange to cover the vocal range of ~120 - 1800Hz == outside of the critical hearing range. I build this "vocal range" design.

3-WAY DESIGN
SEALED MIDRANGE.
 
@Moondog55
These drivers haven't been available for like 10 years or so. I'm not inclined to buy old or second hand drivers since they do have an expiration date (surrounds). I'd rather buy new ones which i can enjoy for many years to come. Thanks for the suggestion anyway.

@PeteMcK
That is where I found most of these drivers .There are a lot of suggestions for drivers but no experience on how these actually sound. Hence this post.

@Linesource

After reading many posts on this forum I made up my mind about transmission lines. Since this is going to be part of a surround system, there is going to be a subwoofer. I was thinking that since there's a subwoofer then there is no need for a 3 way. A 2-way should suffice I think. The speakers only need to be going down to 80Hz.
To answer your questions:
I wanted to keep the speakers estheticly pleasing. I like the shape of the Ariel. My wife has absolutely no interest in music and I have to sell this endeavor to her. So wish me luck.
The listening room is aprox. 68m² in L-shape. And te listening position in far from ideal.
But it is what it is and I can't change it. I'll have to make do whith what I have.
My hearing gets tested every year for work and so far everything is aok. But when I tested I coulnd't hear above 17kHz. I presume this is normal for my age.


I have 2 question for you:


I thought a Qtc of 0.707 was perfect. Why do you suggest 0.5-0.6?
Why would a rounded edge on narrow baffles not work? I thought this was to help with edge diffraction.
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2007
Just wait and the Chinese factory will produce another batch. Actually it's only 3 years since that last batch of Chinese made P-13s and while surrounds do stiffen it has very little effect when used as a midrange and really that's all the P-13 is, or at least the best at
 
Just wait and the Chinese factory will produce another batch. Actually it's only 3 years since that last batch of Chinese made P-13s and while surrounds do stiffen it has very little effect when used as a midrange and really that's all the P-13 is, or at least the best at


Do you know for sure they will? For all I know it could still be years and I don't wanna wait that long...:(


Somebody must have some experience with the drivers i'm proposing...Im not looking for lenghty explenations. A simple good, bad or so so driver will suffice.
:confused:
 
I have some experience with the SB15MFC30-8. Over a decade ago I designed the 2 way ref d27/P13 speaker and earlier this year I decided to do an update using more recent drivers. I used the SB21RDC/SB15MFC to do a similar speaker of around the same size and design goals.

The SB15MFC is much better in all areas than the P13 especially in bass performance, control and detail. It doesn't have the smooth roll off like the P13 but is no issue in the xo. I can't see it being a drop in for the Ariel without design changes.

I always found the old Peerless 850488 was better than the P13 but it's discontinued. Maybe the current 830860 may be similar (I've used the smaller 830870 which is fine). It does have that awkward shape which is a pain to rebate.

I can't comment on the other drivers but am doing a speaker at the moment with the NE123W-8 but have no idea how that compares to the NE149W.

Do consider the SB15NAC(NBAC) as their aluminium drivers are great and even though I use a SB17NAC, the characteristics should be similar. The other is the MW13P-8 but much more expensive (I've used the MW16P-8).

More information just to add to the confusion.
 

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I have some experience with the SB15MFC30-8. Over a decade ago I designed the 2 way ref d27/P13 speaker and earlier this year I decided to do an update using more recent drivers. I used the SB21RDC/SB15MFC to do a similar speaker of around the same size and design goals.

The SB15MFC is much better in all areas than the P13 especially in bass performance, control and detail. It doesn't have the smooth roll off like the P13 but is no issue in the xo. I can't see it being a drop in for the Ariel without design changes.

I always found the old Peerless 850488 was better than the P13 but it's discontinued. Maybe the current 830860 may be similar (I've used the smaller 830870 which is fine). It does have that awkward shape which is a pain to rebate.

I can't comment on the other drivers but am doing a speaker at the moment with the NE123W-8 but have no idea how that compares to the NE149W.

Do consider the SB15NAC(NBAC) as their aluminium drivers are great and even though I use a SB17NAC, the characteristics should be similar. The other is the MW13P-8 but much more expensive (I've used the MW16P-8).

More information just to add to the confusion.


Thanks for the excellent suggestions!

I have a few questions though:

Why do you think the SB15MFC30-8 will not fit the Ariel? Is it because of Fs or VAS difference? If it is Fs then should i make the line longer? If VAS is the problem then i have to get a bigger volume?


I've been looking at the Peerless 830860 but i thought the response between 2kHz and 5kHz looked a bit too erratic? Am i wrong?
 
Does it have to be a TL necessarily?
Read this :

18W-8434G00



Same goes for the Vifa P13WH-00-08, also used in countless constructions and very popular among DIY'ers, e.g. Lynn Olson's Ariels.


I've set my mind on a tl line. ;)


f your budget allows, here you have a TL, you don't have Vifa, but you have the JA8008.
And the twinned with Audax Two34 and waveguide is superb.


http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/QUATTRO-TL-Niels_files/QUATTRO-TL.pdf


These are a bit above my budget. I also need to build 5 more speakers so need to select a more budget driver.:(


I was also thinking of the Ariels, but lack of drivers made me reconsider. Now I think these might just be what the doctor ordered:
Elsinore speakers


That looks like a classic folded tapered tl line. Problem is that it has no labyrinth like the Ariel does. From what i understand, this helps with higher resonances?:scratch2:
 
The Elsinore is a vented box, not a quarter wave.

The Ariel is a rather old design now, the enclosure largely being developed empirically. The heavily folded final section does increase the rate of the acoustic low pass somewhat, although with the benefit of objective hindsight, the enclosure is over-complicated for what it aims to achieve. Works in accordance with intentions, but makes life harder than it really needs to be. Remember also that with the Ariels, Lynn had very specific design objectives for the overall speaker & its balance, and it further reflected his own preferences / priorities at the time he designed it. This is seen both in the enclosure loading, the frequency response, crossover frequency & design features, polar behaviour etc.

One possible option at the [more] modest price region would be to make a floorstanding QW version of the Seas Bragi kit. Would likely need some filter changes due to the larger baffle area but assuming you kept width & the relative location of the drivers the same to that & the top of the baffle, shouldn't be catastrophic.
 
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