Wholeheartedly agree with this.
On the same token, microdynamics and subtle details in the recordings become very obvious as well, a real treat ..
I have a 100 dB horn system at work. Full alnico front and backloaded system. Its true that such a system can portrait every recording in the way it was done, miked, mixed and recorded..Sometimes that could sound blurred or compressed, but it shouldn't sound harsh. If it does, something in the source, crossover or amplification isn't quite good enough in quality.
@camplo and All,
Horn drivers have several types of nonlinear distortions, to name a few culprits; nonlinear breakups of the diaphragm, nonlinear adiabatic compression of the air in the compression chamber, and nonlinear propagation in phasing plug and horn. These are basic mechanisms of nonlinear distortion in horn drivers caused by their structure and function.
The dynamic drivers you are speaking about, I assume to be cones and domes do not have nonlinear breakups of a metal diaphragm, nonlinear adiabatic compression of the air in the compression chamber, and nonlinear propagation in phasing plug and horn. They do not have the same mechanisms of distortion, similar but different.
This stuff is measurable. I will be back to Sparky’s Lab I think Tuesday and post some measurements that you requested.
Thanks DT
What most interests is, how does it sound like, does it sound like distorted?
No, thats not what I hear. It sounds very undistorted to me, altough there is some character of a horn sound. But that should be the case, I like that much more than a cone reproducer with its cone at the same axis as the front of the speaker. Their sound falls literally off the wall, instead a horns sound comes from a very deep, hidden source and gives everything a positive addition of depth. Its able to hold a tone much longer. If that effect falls together with a nicely working in-phase system, it could be magic. No cone speaker could do those things, at least to me.
No, thats not what I hear. It sounds very undistorted to me, altough there is some character of a horn sound. But that should be the case, I like that much more than a cone reproducer with its cone at the same axis as the front of the speaker. Their sound falls literally off the wall, instead a horns sound comes from a very deep, hidden source and gives everything a positive addition of depth. Its able to hold a tone much longer. If that effect falls together with a nicely working in-phase system, it could be magic. No cone speaker could do those things, at least to me.
You're not wrong DT....I don't think most people reach the spl's to really make those issues problematic. (With well designed drivers.)
I think the pro amt's are the only drivers available to diy'ers that deliver cleaner high spl HF. Different dispersion characteristics though.
I think the pro amt's are the only drivers available to diy'ers that deliver cleaner high spl HF. Different dispersion characteristics though.
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You don't suspect we fry bacon with our CDs? Depending on the devices of course and their usage, not all will necessarily sound different with level even up to that point. That goes for HD and for diffraction related, level dependent distortions.
Saying that like it or not, all horns sound like horns - is like saying that all cone speakers sound like cones, all electrostatics sound like electrostatics, all bass reflex sound like bass reflex, etc. What does that mean?
Certainly different technologies have tendencies toward types of coloration, but is it audible in all? Do well implemented examples avoid those faults? Or do they all sound the same? Not in my listening experience.
Certainly different technologies have tendencies toward types of coloration, but is it audible in all? Do well implemented examples avoid those faults? Or do they all sound the same? Not in my listening experience.
Now that we have everyone’s logical thinking tied in a knot.
So do all horns sound the same? I am not sure that anyone said that to be true.
Perhaps horns can serve as worst case example and some horns sound better than others.
Thanks DT
Geddes did say the 2nd H, 3rd H and IM distortion are masked by the program material and not audible. This would make horns sound better than the data would indicate.
So do all horns sound the same? I am not sure that anyone said that to be true.
Perhaps horns can serve as worst case example and some horns sound better than others.
Thanks DT
Geddes did say the 2nd H, 3rd H and IM distortion are masked by the program material and not audible. This would make horns sound better than the data would indicate.
Isn't horn/wave guide the only way to make sound from electric to acoustic transformation in a controlled way? What I mean is that the output wavefront is well behaved and possibly without diffraction. Transducer without a wave guide will never achieve this other than low frequencies relative to the transducer diameter. For me horns are obvious choice without a doubt, enough dynamics that direct radiating speakers I've had never provided.
Well, any kind of technology can be implemented well and worse. No exception in horn or any other type of speaker 🙂
edit: hmm, the topic was not about horn but compression drivers. I've never tried normal tweeter in a horn, should work ok, cannot say it is better or worse, certainly potentially a lot cheaper and should provide more sound pressure before distortion than without a horn.
Well, any kind of technology can be implemented well and worse. No exception in horn or any other type of speaker 🙂
edit: hmm, the topic was not about horn but compression drivers. I've never tried normal tweeter in a horn, should work ok, cannot say it is better or worse, certainly potentially a lot cheaper and should provide more sound pressure before distortion than without a horn.
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Interesting point of view Pano.
Aside the amp question, do you prefer a cd/horn combo in its usable frequency range than an ESL ? - say >500 hz, to make the discussion easier as below we are often less in horn conf for many horn system owners but direct big PA Drivers-
And if yes, why ? Dynamic feeling ? tones ? soundstage ? etc ?
A well implemented compression/horn combination beats EVERY cone speaker in terms of dynamic range. The best system are very smooth sounding, but are as far as the sun is to the moon when it comes to budget compared to ordinary multi way cone speakers.
When I see two similar impulse responses that are equal whatever both system I surmise the dynamic is ok, but if the cone drivers system has a spl ceilling limit of course. ESL often measures good here but people often say macro dynamic suffers vs horn sys...
Surely a know how problem as highlighted experienced horn users here... All seem to agree with that unlimited dynamic feeling - that some can mix up with average spl listening volume and the posibility to full fill the +db dynamic windows with a high average spl volume (live sound refered?)
Surely a know how problem as highlighted experienced horn users here... All seem to agree with that unlimited dynamic feeling - that some can mix up with average spl listening volume and the posibility to full fill the +db dynamic windows with a high average spl volume (live sound refered?)
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No, at least not in this thread (tho I'd have to check). Saying that all trombones sound like trombones does not mean that all trombones sound the same.
I understand what you've been saying, that horns share a set of faults and coloration that make then always sound like horns. While I might agree on the former, I do not agree on the latter. Because good engineering and proper use can make these faults inaudible, or at least indistinguishable from the faults of other transducers.
There have been plenty of awful horns made and used because horns are difficult. The effort needed to make them sound good is well worth it, IME.
That's not an easy question. Although mostly it will be horns for me, having spent a lot of time in front of double stacked ESL57s - I know that they can do things that no horn, or any other speaker can do. The transparency and naturalness is unrivaled.
However I've heard other electrostats that didn't impress me. So I don't have a definitive answer or choice, sorry.
Well that's difficult...we all dream of a perfect perfect loudspeakers and many of us have already very good speakers... diminishing return... and horns are not that cheap or easy to live with (basements are welcome often). I dream about that, maybe one day if a 2 ways not too much expensive and so on... - so not for me yet, does not say I would not like to plunge in the adventure. A fascinating world...at least from my chair.
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Room acoustics and space make a huge difference. I've been lucky enough to experience many different listening and performing spaces, often with the same speakers (touring). The differences are major and often more important than the speaker.
"The exception that proves the rule".
Which begs the question, is your horn exceptional?
Thanks DT
Which begs the question, is your horn exceptional?
Thanks DT
I have been wondering what is meant by harsh and more so by "fatigueing" in the context of that thread. I find a 6dB peak at 7k very fatigueing in the sense that I want to turn off whatever is playing because I can't stand it and it is getting on my nerves.
On the other hand I like to listen to my 4 way horn system in close range (1,5 - 2 meter distance) and crank it up. The experience is awesome and it is a feeling I can't recreate with ESLs or direct radiators at any level. At some point I have to move away and turn it down as I feel worn out and can't take it any longer. But totally different from the 7k peak situation described above.
If this makes sense to anybody please let me know
I find it's interesting that I sometimes feel that larger ATC studio monitors sound like high efficient horn speakers despite of their very low efficiency. I guess ATC's forward soundstage (a little more in your face presentation) due to mid dome and/or sharp edge of the enclosure makes me feel so. Tasteful voicing, I would say.
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