Hi everyone,
After years of spectating of what is going on in the Hifi / Highend Audio Industry, I have decided to nosedive again into the Rabbit hole and finally make a decision on what kind of DAC, Amp and Loudspeaker I will purchase, only to be disgusted and irritated (again) with incoherent technical explanations and Hocus Pocus talk about all sorts of audio equipment. I have noticed the total unusual design in a YouTube presentation of a German Highend salesman, praising the Devore OrangUtan96. After seeing the price tag, and recognizing the SEAS chassis, I researched a little, and landed here on this site.
Basically, all I want is to build this Loudspeaker, but have a few questions. I hope some of you maybe can answer and help me, and other people, understand some things.
Questions:
Cabinet:
I have seen the first beautiful builds of this Loudspeaker in this and other threads and Sites. I would like to give the plans to build the cabinet to a professional carpenter, are there any plans available?
While looking at the builds I have noticed that the Morel Tweeter has its own small enclosure in some of the builds. In a Review of Image Hifi in 2016, a German Highend Mag, the OrangUtan96 chassis were taken out of the cabinet and there was a conventional Ferrite magnet system visible in the woofer and it was visible that the tweeter seems to be a Morel one, (they claim that the tweeter I s a ceramic double magnet system made by SEAS). Also I have noticed that there seems to be no extra enclosure for the tweeter!? Why should I add an extra enclosure?
Crossover:
DeVore explains that the Crossover is based on Gibbon circuit that uses no resistors and will never have an impedance below 6 Ohm. Also the reviewer in Stereophile stated that the crossover frequency is no public information.
Are the DeVore Crossover designs super special while being super simple because of proprietary coils and caps?
Is there such a thing as a crossover reference design for this Loudspeaker, or is it all empirical?
How do you make sure the your crossover design does not cause damage to a expensive Amp by reaching low impedance, do you test it?
Is there a Book that is recommended for learning crossover design?
Thanks for your help!
Best regards
washi
After years of spectating of what is going on in the Hifi / Highend Audio Industry, I have decided to nosedive again into the Rabbit hole and finally make a decision on what kind of DAC, Amp and Loudspeaker I will purchase, only to be disgusted and irritated (again) with incoherent technical explanations and Hocus Pocus talk about all sorts of audio equipment. I have noticed the total unusual design in a YouTube presentation of a German Highend salesman, praising the Devore OrangUtan96. After seeing the price tag, and recognizing the SEAS chassis, I researched a little, and landed here on this site.
Basically, all I want is to build this Loudspeaker, but have a few questions. I hope some of you maybe can answer and help me, and other people, understand some things.
Questions:
Cabinet:
I have seen the first beautiful builds of this Loudspeaker in this and other threads and Sites. I would like to give the plans to build the cabinet to a professional carpenter, are there any plans available?
While looking at the builds I have noticed that the Morel Tweeter has its own small enclosure in some of the builds. In a Review of Image Hifi in 2016, a German Highend Mag, the OrangUtan96 chassis were taken out of the cabinet and there was a conventional Ferrite magnet system visible in the woofer and it was visible that the tweeter seems to be a Morel one, (they claim that the tweeter I s a ceramic double magnet system made by SEAS). Also I have noticed that there seems to be no extra enclosure for the tweeter!? Why should I add an extra enclosure?
Crossover:
DeVore explains that the Crossover is based on Gibbon circuit that uses no resistors and will never have an impedance below 6 Ohm. Also the reviewer in Stereophile stated that the crossover frequency is no public information.
Are the DeVore Crossover designs super special while being super simple because of proprietary coils and caps?
Is there such a thing as a crossover reference design for this Loudspeaker, or is it all empirical?
How do you make sure the your crossover design does not cause damage to a expensive Amp by reaching low impedance, do you test it?
Is there a Book that is recommended for learning crossover design?
Thanks for your help!
Best regards
washi
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/seas-a26-devore-style-build.369124/post-7291001
You probably want the largest box. Link to the post where i keep th elink up to date.
99.9% (or so) of dome tweeters are self-enclosed. No need formore than a hole in the baffle.
That bit is mostly meaningless. Here is the measured impedance curve, indeedit doesn’t go below 6Ω, something the marketing department would use to suggest that it will work fine with high outpyt impedanceamplifiers (usually singleended tube amps), bu tin fact the BIG peak at the XO point (≈1.5kHz) will be heard. High Rout amplifiers want to see flat.
The marketin gbit would suggest attention was paid to th eimpedance of the loudspeaker, but the actaul curve bellies that claim
No resistors means the tweeter is either the right sensitivity out oif the box or they ar eusing some other methos to attenuate the tweeter.
Very unlikely.
[quoite]Is there such a thing as a crossover reference design for this Loudspeaker, or is it all empirical?
[/quoite]
The document above has as many XOs as i could gather.
Personally i would use a FR midTweeter and biamp.
I did note, while digging up the impedane curve, that from this measurement the construction of their box is not very good. 100 Hz box rersonan e will be heard.
dave
nothing special there.
Same old 30 ohm peak at crossover
that guys cant seem to improve
even with computer aided design.
Most the magic if any is ok drivers.
Never seen off axis measurements.
Crossing low to a 10" driver
you would need a tweeter that can cross
very low and have low distortion at low frequency.
Aka larger than 1" and have low resonant frequency.
At least 700 Hz or lower to tolerate 1500 kHz
crossover point. More ideal for a 8" speaker
10" actually needs lower crossover.
8" about the threshold for a 2 way without using
larger waveguides / horns.
Or just do a 3 way with more bass woofer.
since a mid is more feasible for 10" or larger
woofers.
Same old 30 ohm peak at crossover
that guys cant seem to improve
even with computer aided design.
Most the magic if any is ok drivers.
Never seen off axis measurements.
Crossing low to a 10" driver
you would need a tweeter that can cross
very low and have low distortion at low frequency.
Aka larger than 1" and have low resonant frequency.
At least 700 Hz or lower to tolerate 1500 kHz
crossover point. More ideal for a 8" speaker
10" actually needs lower crossover.
8" about the threshold for a 2 way without using
larger waveguides / horns.
Or just do a 3 way with more bass woofer.
since a mid is more feasible for 10" or larger
woofers.
Have you compared this GR boxes 0v8 Cabinet Design with Morel Tweeter to an actual OrangUtan96? I would like to get as close to the original Design as possible. That is the reason why I want to understand how much influence the multiple XO designs have on the sound and if anyone compared his XO design to the original, or maybe even try to recreate the measured curves of the original to find out what kind of filter was used.
Yes, I have seen one with a broken front and there is no brace below the woofer, strange to see at this price point...
At $21k CAD for the O/96, it's well beyond strange to see poor cabinet construction.
jeff
Why is it strange? The speaker provides modest technical performance and adds value (a great deal of it at the price!) via other means for those that are receptive. This doesn't make it a bad speaker (or a good one) but it does mean that conventional "good engineering" that provides a high technical performance in, say, studio monitors (at cheaper prices!) is largely irrelevant and missing the point.
A large fairly efficient resonant midwoofer with a large tweeter in a large cabinet is an old fashioned budget configuration. The Dynaco A25 being the classic example. Advances in driver performances, higher output amplifiers and more weight given to smaller speaker size has lead to the configuration disappearing from the offerings of the mainstream speaker manufacturers. A number of examples are still available from boutique audiophile manufacturers though at high prices.
Personally I have a soft spot for the configuration and the characteristic sound they tend to provide. Suitable midwoofers are rare these days but tend to be fairly cheap. Suitable large tweeters are also rare but unfortunately tend to be expensive. Without understanding what is about the Devore speaker that you value highly it can be difficult to give useful advice but here is a series of designs from Peter Comeau (currently of IAG and involved with well received "modern retro" Mission and Wharfedale speakers) that has plans to follow (possibly online but I don't have a link) that may or may not be of interest.
Do you mean receptive from an audiophile hearing standpoint, or from marketing perspective, buying into stories of the manufacturer?
Im following Hifi and Highend since 1992 and read trough Kilograms of magazines and discussing with my best friends in school about all types of audio stuff, also hearing a lot on "Old School" speakers growing up and I also love this characteristic. I became a complete audio Agnostic reading all the incoherent claims over the years, and I have learned that some Highend loudpeakers apparently do not measure well, yet sell for 50.000€ a pair. Wilson Audio uses its Material X (probably mineral resin composite plates) for reduced vibration in the cabinet of a Sabrina X, which uses Scan Speak Chassis and selling for ca. 28.000€ a pair. I just noticed the massive difference in the mechanical approach in building the loudspeaker. Maybe the resonance in the cabinet of the OrangUtan96 is the secret sauce for its "musicality", I do not know.
Before I would start to build my own "clones" I would need to settle on the right XO and I would add the bracing under the woofer, but in the end im just a layman that never heard the original speakers and never designed an XO.
Please don't tell me these use also blue dyed seas chassisYeah, like uber expensive Audio Note AN/E.
My experience tends to suggest there is no such a thing as an audiophile hearing standpoint. There are a number of speakers with a modest technical performance and, in one or two cases, poor technical performance that have had their value greatly increased in the eyes of a few non-technical home audio enthusiasts by advertorials in the audiophile press and forums. This high value tends to fall if examined closely or tested by, for example, comparative listening under blind conditions and/or some familiarity with high fidelity speakers. (I will carefully avoid the topic of why the mainstream audiophile press produces what it does and why some enthusiasts propagate it).
The high value can be real in the sense that some audiophiles will pay high prices for such speakers and remain happy and content. This contentment tends to have little to do with the sound and more to do with the benefits of possessing what is considered high value. Unfortunately a clone, even with an identical technical performance, is at best only going to have it's value raised a modest amount by association because it is not "the real thing".
Before you can design a crossover you will first need to learn how. It will depend on the details of the drivers, the cabinet, the sound radiation pattern desired, cost and, of course, the value you place on boutique components. Following, or largely following, someone else's design can be a more effective place to start rather than attempting to do everything before one has gained an appreciation for what everything involves. Of course you may be perfectly happy for the first go to be less than successful because it is the first go in which case crack on.
That is the reason some People in this thread ask if someone who already build the speakers to share their XO designs. I would totally pay for a XO design that has been fine-tuned and has similar characteristics of the original!
As far as I understand there are different philosophies when designing XO. I see 1st Order designs and I see 3rd Order designs (https://www.seas.no/images/stories/diykits/aphel/DIY_kit_SEAS_Aphel.pdf) with this type of loudspeaker chassis. Some people say over corrected sounds boring, others say less components is the natural lively sound that everyone craves, I can't tell...