I am currently working with VituixCAD2 program on the crossover design for my Orangutan clone.
The CAT 378 tweeter looks exactly like the one used in the Orangutan 96 and 93. As for the woofer, I believe John DeVore that it is a special woofer made for him. It is easy to see that the Orangutan 96 and 93 uses phase plug woofers, like Seas Excel series, while SEAS Prestige A26RE4 have paper dust cap in the middle. SEAS A26RE4 have sensitivity of 89db, and it's impossible to reach with it the high sensitivity that John claims.
With the CAT 378 and Seas 26 I succeed to design 89-90db speaker. But I played with the idea of using 2 Seas 26 woofer on one speaker, and it was easy to design a balanced 95db speaker. Did anyone try to make Orangutan with 2 woofers? Of course it will look less like the original, but maybe it can be a better speaker then the 1 woofer clone? Any thoughts on that?
Orangutan 93 woofer with phase plug in the middle:
SEAS A26RE4 with paper dust cap in the middle:
My Orangutan crossover SPL, 89-90db:
My Orangutan with 2 Seas 26 woofers crossover SPL, 95db:
The CAT 378 tweeter looks exactly like the one used in the Orangutan 96 and 93. As for the woofer, I believe John DeVore that it is a special woofer made for him. It is easy to see that the Orangutan 96 and 93 uses phase plug woofers, like Seas Excel series, while SEAS Prestige A26RE4 have paper dust cap in the middle. SEAS A26RE4 have sensitivity of 89db, and it's impossible to reach with it the high sensitivity that John claims.
With the CAT 378 and Seas 26 I succeed to design 89-90db speaker. But I played with the idea of using 2 Seas 26 woofer on one speaker, and it was easy to design a balanced 95db speaker. Did anyone try to make Orangutan with 2 woofers? Of course it will look less like the original, but maybe it can be a better speaker then the 1 woofer clone? Any thoughts on that?
Orangutan 93 woofer with phase plug in the middle:
SEAS A26RE4 with paper dust cap in the middle:
My Orangutan crossover SPL, 89-90db:
My Orangutan with 2 Seas 26 woofers crossover SPL, 95db:
The Devore offer uses a different magnetic as well. It looks like the same assembly as Seas uses for the exotic drivers.
I want to point out that without the directivity modeled, that this will not sound as you expect. A 10" 2way such as the Orangutan or my Pangolins is a pretty difficult design to get right. The beaming, the mismatch in directivity, and the blend of the drivers should not be designed as if they are maximally flat. The off axis responses are very important.
That said, I tried to get a listen to the O last year at AXPONA, but I did not get a demo that was worthwhile, nor music I was remotely familiar with. Without that, I cannot verify that they are in fact designed and sounding as they should according to my experience in a design such as these.
That said, I tried to get a listen to the O last year at AXPONA, but I did not get a demo that was worthwhile, nor music I was remotely familiar with. Without that, I cannot verify that they are in fact designed and sounding as they should according to my experience in a design such as these.
Lol...
I have yet to finish the boxes, but I am happy with their performance.
I have yet to finish the boxes, but I am happy with their performance.
Think it is a great idea, 2 woofers really wake up the bass.
Pretty fun regardless to learn the software and what is possible these days.
As mentioned the real fun is simulating on the baffle with diffraction tool.
You will get off axis response and see full space losses. Then 2 woofers will really make sense.
Usually the tweeter is considered the listening position. So you use the X,Y coordinates
according to the distances the drivers will be mounted apart, center to center.
Then phase will be correct and the crossover can be designed.
Off axis is a whole new world and horizontal is easy, vertical will be the fun part.
Usually the lower woofer will have a lower crossover point, so the drivers dont cancel the top end.
Essentially 2x 10" woofers will behave like a 20" woofer in the vertical. You will see this.
It is why off axis is important to view and getting phase/distance correct in sim.
You will see why 2x woofer is very good idea with full space losses in the low end.
The second woofer and crossover point will fill in the losses.
Real life less EQ and nice snappy bass, no vertical cancelation. Often called .5 crossover
10" woofer will want a low crossover point for tweeter, so that is also the fun.
General rule of thumb is to be Octave above driver resonant frequency. For low distortion
at higher volumes. So if your trying to cross at 1000 Hz, would really really hope for magic tweeter
with 500 Hz resonant frequency. Likely impossible to find with dome.
Regardless the tweeter will be very large 1" or 1 1/4" to get down too 600/700Hz resonant frequency.
Then ride the edge of the impedance curve with high order filter 3rd or 4th order to reduce distortion.
Pretty tight with a 2 way. I somewhat consider 1200/1400 Hz about the limit for very low crossed dome tweeters
They are large regardless, and those frequency range makes 8" woofer about as large as possible for domes.
Then again getting fancy with a crossover 10" is possible. Really riding the limit, center to center mounting
must be really really close. Among other tricks to weasel the off axis response to work.
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Correct 2x 10" drivers would behave like a 20" driver vertical.
So about the only way to make it work.
The .5 crossover for lower woofer gets you back to 10" directivity behavior.
And be rather nice extra dynamic for bass.
Of course it deviates from the Devore already.
Why I mentioned 2x8" will be easier crossover point for a large dome tweeter.
Since 1200 / 1400 Hz is realistic for a 8" also realistic for 1 1/4" tweeters with 600/700 Hz resonant frequency
I already doubted devore designs anyways since a dome tweet to a 10" is rather close to impossible.
Without trading off, pretty big dip off axis. Which im sure it has anyways.
I was just happy to see nice wide baffles that actually sold and the extra beauty they can offer
by getting creative with the laminate/grain finish. Part of the big appeal of the design.
So about the only way to make it work.
The .5 crossover for lower woofer gets you back to 10" directivity behavior.
And be rather nice extra dynamic for bass.
Of course it deviates from the Devore already.
Why I mentioned 2x8" will be easier crossover point for a large dome tweeter.
Since 1200 / 1400 Hz is realistic for a 8" also realistic for 1 1/4" tweeters with 600/700 Hz resonant frequency
I already doubted devore designs anyways since a dome tweet to a 10" is rather close to impossible.
Without trading off, pretty big dip off axis. Which im sure it has anyways.
I was just happy to see nice wide baffles that actually sold and the extra beauty they can offer
by getting creative with the laminate/grain finish. Part of the big appeal of the design.
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How about giving in and putting an inductor on the woofer and using a Peerless Condurum at about 1500hz?
Design philosophies still overlay in such a loudspeaker design. It is important to know what these and their inherent problems bring to the table for those designing their own.
Hi all and thank you for this fantastic feed. I am new and have a crossover question.
From what I collected from interviews Devore said that the gibbon XO (of which the 0/96 is derived) does not use resistors in his design, nor his gibbon crossover is a 1st, 2nd or 3rd order design - no zobel, no notch. He seems to use inductors in the O/baby - that follows the gibbon philosophy. And uses a star ground topology. The claimed sensitivity is 96 - but really it is measured around 91 -92 in two independent reviews. He uses paper in oil caps.
For cabinet design he uses plywood front and two different density mdf. One density for rear and another for sides top and bottom.
No bracing - minimal lining (eggshell on top, hemp or other on back and bottom)
Rear ports tuned to 43hz
My assumption is that he would use a hybrid design XO.
Now I am new to all this but ready to learn - I fed all the 0/96 measurements I could find to chatgpt (hear.de, stereophile, bm.rs etc.) and all its conclusion is :
1st/2nd order Hybrid crossover, with
Tweeter: 3.9uF cap + 0.27mH coil - second order high pass
Woofer: 0.68mH inductor - 1st order low pass.
Now I am just a noob with limited knowledge and tools - but I wanted to run this by you/ your softwares so someone could provide a more educated feedback ? @Raanan1 maybe?
Happy to list all the sources I gathered when I have time. Have a nice day!
From what I collected from interviews Devore said that the gibbon XO (of which the 0/96 is derived) does not use resistors in his design, nor his gibbon crossover is a 1st, 2nd or 3rd order design - no zobel, no notch. He seems to use inductors in the O/baby - that follows the gibbon philosophy. And uses a star ground topology. The claimed sensitivity is 96 - but really it is measured around 91 -92 in two independent reviews. He uses paper in oil caps.
For cabinet design he uses plywood front and two different density mdf. One density for rear and another for sides top and bottom.
No bracing - minimal lining (eggshell on top, hemp or other on back and bottom)
Rear ports tuned to 43hz
My assumption is that he would use a hybrid design XO.
Now I am new to all this but ready to learn - I fed all the 0/96 measurements I could find to chatgpt (hear.de, stereophile, bm.rs etc.) and all its conclusion is :
1st/2nd order Hybrid crossover, with
Tweeter: 3.9uF cap + 0.27mH coil - second order high pass
Woofer: 0.68mH inductor - 1st order low pass.
Now I am just a noob with limited knowledge and tools - but I wanted to run this by you/ your softwares so someone could provide a more educated feedback ? @Raanan1 maybe?
Happy to list all the sources I gathered when I have time. Have a nice day!
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First, don't use chatgpt for such a technical setup, that tool can't do that. It can just sift trough a whole leap of info and make an average of it. But as the internet is full of bulls***, especially on audio, I would not trust it to design a speaker, or reverse engineer a speaker.
The Devore speakers are build on audiomyths, not engineering. That is why he use no resistors, paper in oil capps and no bracing. All things that modern engineering debunked as good for audio. If you want that kind of speakers but well engineered, you better look at the Seas A26 kit and build the cabinet that Planet 10 designed for it instead of the original. then you will have a much better speaker in the same style as the devore. You can find it on this site (google it, i'm to lazy)
But even with the devore type of layout and drivers (i'm not a fan of that morel CAT378 tweeter used, but it's not crap) you can do a lot better than Devore does. They sell a speaker on hype, not on technical specs and it seems to work. So their design is not that good technically. But if you want that, better buy the speaker itself. Otherwise you will have to redesign it yourself. Some did, maybe they will give or sell you their plans. But don't count on any AI to do the design for you. It can't do it right yet.
The Devore speakers are build on audiomyths, not engineering. That is why he use no resistors, paper in oil capps and no bracing. All things that modern engineering debunked as good for audio. If you want that kind of speakers but well engineered, you better look at the Seas A26 kit and build the cabinet that Planet 10 designed for it instead of the original. then you will have a much better speaker in the same style as the devore. You can find it on this site (google it, i'm to lazy)
But even with the devore type of layout and drivers (i'm not a fan of that morel CAT378 tweeter used, but it's not crap) you can do a lot better than Devore does. They sell a speaker on hype, not on technical specs and it seems to work. So their design is not that good technically. But if you want that, better buy the speaker itself. Otherwise you will have to redesign it yourself. Some did, maybe they will give or sell you their plans. But don't count on any AI to do the design for you. It can't do it right yet.
Thanks a bunch - chatgpt being limited is my assumption as well - I am not planning to use it to design a crossover - but I wanted to « scientifically » check whether it could come close with a little bit of spoonfeeding, by asking someone to run its design into a proper tool. I intentiobally limited the knowledge-base of my chatgpt to avoid it going through b.s. 😀
Thanks for giving me your feedback on this and the devore design - love the audiomyths analogy!
Thanks for giving me your feedback on this and the devore design - love the audiomyths analogy!
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The midbass in these speakers is not a standard driver from the SEAS 10" range. Even if you find a schematic, it won't be worth much.
With the morel CAT378 tweeter and the Seas a26re4 this is what you're getting with the chatgpt crossover:
Those are really horrible results.
The drivers that are in the original Orangutan are not available to buy on shelf, so we can't know what the result will be with the original drivers.
Those are really horrible results.
The drivers that are in the original Orangutan are not available to buy on shelf, so we can't know what the result will be with the original drivers.