DarTZeel, Stereophile's 2005 Amplification Component...

[amplifierguru]

Well Hi Mastertech,

Yes I started manufacturing in 1974. I also produced a small Class A amp and subwoofers but they weren't in vogue then. Did all the thiele parameter measurements with weights and sealed boxes. Did PCB artwork with tapes and donuts on a light table.
Also a great subtractive 2/3 way L-R XO.

Before that I was lecturing in Electronics and Semi Physics, and before that doing postgrad research (audio) at Uni.

Comments on this amplifier. It obviously introduces sympathetic distortions that enhance Stereophile's systems positively. Bob Carver could likely copy the sound in a $500 cube. And I'm pretty damn sure I could better it for as much.

So what purpose does it serve? Does it bring quality audio to the masses? Seems to me like wasteful excess, something I abhor, when our planet is in meltdown due to western excess and people are still starving.

that's it for me I've given this thread/product more attention than it deserves.

Cheers,
Greg

 

[chicco_36]

I manage to read all the posts in this new to me thread. I even read stereophile review on this amp…
The thoughts that we must admire to person who LOSE 20 years of his life to build one amp (perfect for him) are plane rubbish.
If I devote to something for 20 years, I will think of my self like I’m greatest looser on this world or I’m retarded. Think of N. Pass for example, what he will do if he need 20 years to design just one amp?!?!?!

Than is that famous stereophile review: in just one test, that amp that I can’t even remember the name, go to smoke couple of times!!! At the and, reviewer convince us to lay down 18.000 dollars. Who is out of mind here?!?

My modest apartment where I live cost about 30000 USD. So if pay more than half of that money I will still praying every time when I decide to push that power switch: it will work, or it will go to flames. Not to mention my sarcastic neighbors with Sony/Technics amps who will laugh to dead.

I’m 100% behind Greg here, almost. I think most expensive part of this amp is case so maybe real end price is worth 1000 dollars.

This is just my opinion and pls don’t flame me!
Chicco

P.S.: I have in my hands some older numbers of What HiFi and guess what? Front and back covers are full of B&W and Marantz advertisements. All their products have 4 and 5 stars… Hmmm…

 

[chicco_36]

Check this link just for mind exercise.
http://www.jungson.com/content/product_pages/reviews/ja88d.htm

 

[chicco_36]

700watts trafo, 160,000 uF Rubycon capacitance, 29,5 kg, better than Swiss made case, sanken transistors, gold plated conectors, Jeff Rowland volume and IR control, and much more for down to earth price of about 1000 euros (in my country).

I’m not claim that this is better amp than 18000 dollars variant from this thread, which I never heard, but just a thought.

And a picture from inside.

Chicco

 

[Terry Demol]

700watts trafo, 160,000 uF Rubycon capacitance, 29,5 kg, better than Swiss made case, sanken transistors, gold plated conectors, Jeff Rowland volume and IR control, and much more for down to earth price of about 1000 euros (in my country).

Chicco

You can be very competitive when labour rates are < $2 / hr
Having an artificially devalued currency also helps, as does
next-to non existant environmental manufacturing practices.
Widespread piracy of IP rights also cuts down on developement
costs.

It will eventually change as the general standard of living increases
as does the acid rain. Some reports are saying that the Chinese
manufacturing bubble will burst as soon as 5yrs.

FWIW, I saw that you can buy a chinese DVD player for CA$20

The joke was that the software (disc) costs more than the player.

Worrying times.

Apologies for thread derailment.

Cheers,

Terry

 

[boxedin]

I am with GREG on this except one thing. He should market and selll his amps like that swedish guy.

Even state of the art amp shouldn't cost more than 3000 USD. Anything cost more than it is just throwing money in the dirt.

You cann't improve technical quality after a certain level. Any claim of great sound is more of marketing ploy and selling magazines.

NHB is probably sound dull for the money(18000 USD). Every one have different hearing ability. So anything after decent quality is waste of money.

Thats why i decide to make my own amplifier.

Chinese made amplifier is cheap but that may not make it sound better or even worth the value in amplifier category.

Thats all my say on this thread.

Alexk

 

[ashok]

You can be very competitive when labour rates are < $2 / hr

This is true when the labour cost content ( % of total cost ) for manufacture is high .
For mass produced products the percentage of labour costs must be very low and maybe insignificant. Here cost of raw materials and power consumption and capital costs must dominate.

So they have very cheap raw materials ( Rubycon caps ?) and power supply ? I assume they bought most machinery from the West.

There must be much more to this than what appears to the casual observer. I've met many Chinese Engineers from the Broadcast Business. VERY GOOD ! As good as the best you get from around the world maybe often better ! AND I have met many others from around the globe.
Yes sir , they have a very large number of extremely good engineers . Most however cannot communicate in English -- something they are very actively trying to rectify.

20 years ago the Japanese industry said that they were afraid only of the Chinese Engineers. It's come true.
I've had the opportunity of being present when some Chinese groups visited Japanese factories. They had millions of qestions about everything they saw. You might say they squeezed the towel dry. They went down to the finest details , things we never thought of ourselves ! I was and am , very impressed.
Cheers.

 

[Terry Demol]

This is true when the labour cost content ( % of total cost ) for manufacture is high .

which it is

For mass produced products the percentage of labour costs must be very low and maybe insignificant. Here cost of raw materials and power consumption and capital costs must dominate.

Labour cost affects every step of the process. Raw material
component of total is at all time low.

So they have very cheap raw materials ( Rubycon caps ?) and power supply ? I assume they bought most machinery from the West.

Chinese machinery, chinese tools... Chinese do everything

There must be much more to this than what appears to the casual observer. I've met many Chinese Engineers from the Broadcast Business. VERY GOOD ! As good as the best you get from around the world maybe often better ! AND I have met many others from around the globe.
Yes sir , they have a very large number of extremely good engineers . Most however cannot communicate in English -- something they are very actively trying to rectify.

I didn't say they were bad engineers.

Please read all of my post again, and then do some googling...

I am not being anti Chinese... I am merely pointing at some of the
mechanisms and reasons.

After China (when they become expensive) it will be somewhere
else... maybe India or Pakistan.

Cheers,

Terry

 

[ashok]

Yes Terry , they might be doing everything in house.

However I have reservations about material costs being much less that labour costs or even being significantly comparable. For some products like high-end amps etc ....maybe.
I can't make a conclusive statement now , though I've been in the manufacturing industry and seen some of the costing.

But lets drop the matter it is not important in this thread. We have seen some differences in perception and opinion. That's enough to chew on for a while.

You are right about labour costs catching up with the rest of the world or enough to matter significantly.
That has already started happening in India and slowly in Pakistan.

There has already been a lot of press in India about getting the ACT together in manufacturing. They said if the industry does not buck up now it will loose out globally.
Then there the politicians who have to be cut off from industry and chop off their fingers which always lie in the pockets of industrial houses. You know what that means.

Potential of doing well in manufacturing is good but will not last for ever . Some industries are already world class and exporting to sophisticated markets. Yes it 'could' happen.

We'll know in a couple of years !
Cheers.

 

[Upupa Epops]

Prices " high end of hifi " are about feeling " I have something, which can't have everybody " .... In this case is all about snobism and only a little about real economy price...

 

[phase_accurate]

You are right about labour costs catching up with the rest of the world or enough to matter significantly.

I think this is only fair ! I hope it will also help improving working conditions in many Eastern countries.

At the moment Western companys are just manufacturing things in Eastern countries out of greed. If they can have something for $ 9.90 instead of $ 10.- if they manufacture abroad (including transport etc) then they will definitely do it. They don't do it because of the clever Indian or Chinese engineers (which by no doubt are many), the main reason is money - nothing else.

And yes, maufacturing something in Switzerland is expensive. This increases heavily for things manufactured in small numbers. If something is exported to the U.S. price is increasing once again.
But the same happens with US products imported to Europe as well. The Famous Maglite flashlites, American cars, or Levi's jeans cost nearly twice as much here just to mention a few examples.


Regards

Charles

 

[ashok]

I think this is only fair ! I hope it will also help improving working conditions

EXACTLY !

Countries who pay low labour wages have workers who live in appalling conditions . It's nothing but old style 'colonialism" in the 21st century. Beaten down to the ground is what it is !
A real shame for Humankind.

This phenomena thrives on excess population.
If the worker will not do a $10 job for 50 cents , they will get someone who will -- someone who is scraping the ground to survive ! Exploitation 21st century style.

However this situation cannot be changed overnight But MUST be done. So increasing labour costs is a natural process to stabilise the system. So by paying more for equipment we will at least know that someone is living a better life -- At least I hope so !...........And so goes on , the mystery of life ....................
Cheers.

 

[carlosfm]

But the same happens with US products imported to Europe as well. The Famous Maglite flashlites, American cars, or Levi's jeans cost nearly twice as much here just to mention a few examples.

Too many times prices are cheaper ins USA than in Europe, even for european products.
I would not be surprized if a B&W Nautilus 800D would cost at least the same it not less money in the States than in Europe.
Well, this is a massive speaker, very heavy, and it costs lots of $$$$ to ship.
What happens is, and this happens in several countries in Europe (including mine), from what we earn in our hard work, more than 50% goes to taxes.
So, more than 6 monts in a year you are working for the taxes.

It's hard to swallow that some european products, from european brands, cost much less in the States.

 

[Terry Demol]

I think this is only fair ! I hope it will also help improving working conditions in many Eastern countries.

At the moment Western companys are just manufacturing things in Eastern countries out of greed.

No, they are doing it to stay in business. Unfortunate fact of
life. If your competitor goes to China and cuts costs what do
you do??

If they can have something for $ 9.90 instead of $ 10.- if they manufacture abroad (including transport etc) then they will definitely do it. They don't do it because of the clever Indian or Chinese engineers (which by no doubt are many), the main reason is money - nothing else.

Yes, and money often means survival.

And yes, maufacturing something in Switzerland is expensive. This increases heavily for things manufactured in small numbers. If something is exported to the U.S. price is increasing once again.
But the same happens with US products imported to Europe as well. The Famous Maglite flashlites, American cars, or Levi's jeans cost nearly twice as much here just to mention a few examples.

Agreed.

So: If Darty Zeel can successfully manufacture on a small scale a
quality product that costs a premium, but people will buy and be
totally happy with, I say

Good on them

And: IMO, it would be more environmentally responsible injecting
(profit on) $18k into the economy of a country that has one of the
toughest environmental policies in the world than some eastern
country in which it is virtually non existant.

Cheers,

Terry

 

[davidsrsb]

The environmental laws are fairly strict here these days.
People are paid much less, I have skilled PCB designers who earn about USD5000 per year

Commenting on the amplifier design I don't see anything that I have not seen many times before. The diodes in the output won't conduct at low levels, operating the output transistors in current drive. This avoids the worst of thermal runaway as hfe is much less sensitive than Vbe.

The unusual part is the need for high values of base resistors to the drivers to get the O/P quiescent, R3 and R4 in my simulation

 

[davidsrsb]

The simulation

Third harmonic is a few percent, which will be very audible.
The outout stage has a few nasty gm steps.

Many hifi reviewers are getting older, my own hearing is down to around 12 kHz now. Maybe they like the "brightness" of serious distortion.

 

[amplifierguru]

Hi David,

That's reassuring about the environmental laws - my wife and I really love Malaysia, but we were almost asphyxiated waiting at the main bus interchange. Diesels and urban are simply incompatible. Colourful though, with all the hookers, hawkers and food - something out of a Tom Waits scene! Love the food.

Right on about this gilt offering. Can't see how it satisfies any need. Says more about the need for responsible journalism.

Wasn't coming back but it got interesting.

Cheers,
Greg

 

[jacco vermeulen]

That's reassuring about the environmental laws

Mr Ball,
one more reason to relocate to Switzerland.

You'll love the street sign posts in Geneva and Lausanne warning people for the penalty of littering.
Not sure about the smell of thousands of large displacement diesel tourist busses and trucks going in and out year round.
Or the odor of my kind of air polluter cars tax refugees drive among the Swiss.
But i was told Swiss alpinism is the only environmental friendly one, and Swiss rescue helicopters have "Green" gas turbines.
Better not mention the many chemical companies residing in the Alps region, i am currently corresponding with the main office in Zug of one of the largest chemical traders worldwide.
Environmentalists however may not enjoy the effects of over-excessive fertilizer issues.
>>
www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html

Fully agree with your statement about journalism objectivety.

It took the Goldmund team in Geneva nearly a decade to bring a high quality Mimesis amplifier to the market, and then gain the praise.
To think, Mr Goldmund is a dog.
Just as it took Manuel Huber's FM Acoustics more than a decade to conquer the globe and gain praise with his FM811.

Journalists have come up with a major audio revolution.
Make it Swiss, make it very environmental rigid and expensively produced, lavish built.
Then print some diy development articles and make it the most outstanding component at the end of the year.
Why bother with regular commercial market mechanisms ?

You can bring the straight jacket now, everything is more than twice as expensive overhere, my mouth is foaming again.

Yours truly,
Ebenezer.

 

[AKSA]

Jacco,

When I read posts like your latest I'm always sad that so much distance separates us.

You truly capture the dichotomies of modern Switzerland!

My kind of cynicism, I would truly like to chat with you.......

Cheers,

Hugh

 

[jacco vermeulen]

My kind of cynicism

Mr Dean,

it takes one to recognise the other.
Learning something new is allways a treat, i had no idea reinforced luxury casual items were sold down under too.

Many of the Alpinians will have difficulty with the Swiss dichotomy as well. Journalism is also a nice example.
Most of the European countries forbid the reproduction or sale of some vintage literary works.
But if someone is interested, i know a fabulous antique bookstore in Geneva that will sell a genuine first edition 1924 novel written by a semi-Austrian bloke called A.H.(Schicklgruber) for an abundant offer of Swiss Francs.