Ultima Thule said:Ok, I read the patent, it's only two pages of text, and... well I let somebody else comment it!
However the diode phenomena, the patent states the following:
[0020] The diodes D1 and D2 provide a very fast pulse
response through their p-n junction capacitance and protect
the resistors R19 and R20 against heating. well..
Cheers Michael
I believe the diodes will extend the class A region of the OP
devices. The diodes them selves will switch on/off before OP
devices but they (diodes) can be chosen to have much better
switching characteristics.
If a few were used in series, the amp could be made so that
the OP devices don't turn off at all but without the need for
huge class A OP bias.
WRT the amps sound, it may be a lot less coloured than
you think.
Cheers,
Terry
Ultima Thule said:Hi Terry!
Are you shure, could you elaborate more detailed how these diodes together with driver BJT's and oputput BJT's works if you look at the schematic in my first post?
Greg,
the future's bright!
Cheers Michael
Michael,
On second look at the schematic you posted, it wouldn't do as
I stated. My mistake.
However my train of thought was as follows:
Imagine the OP stage feed point Q9/10 in your schem or an
equivalent VBE multiplier in a typ complimentary EF OP with 4 x
junction V across it (4 x 0.7 = 2.8V) instead of the 2 (1.4V) in this
case.
Connect OP stage with feed diodes/parr R's as shown in your
schematic.
When OP goes +, the Pch OP device (Q12) gets to a point where it
will normally shut off or stop conducting and all the current is
flowing through the upper (N) device. At this time the P ch OP
device's diode will also stop conducting but the R across it will keep
the OP BJT conducting longer than it would normally have.
There are possible variations on this theme which could keep the
OP devices on all the time with just the feed diodes turning on/off.
I have no idea what the sonic or measurement impact of this
arrangement would be.
Cheers,
Terry
grataku said:
Shame there is not a French one.
Can anyone give me a reason for the peculiar shaped buss bars ?
Mr Ball,
move to Switserland, change your name to Bally and offer your stuff for megabucks.
The Swiss will eagerly endorse your environmental amplifiers, and you'll have a reserved parking space for your Bentley in Crans Montana.
amplifierguru said:
Greg,
I agree with you in that this is a LOT of money to pay for an amp,
it does seem pretty OTT.
However in their defence, I can see that this amp was almost
certainly design purely through very careful listening tests of many
different topologies and components. And from a bit of quick
research I've done it appears it does sound very very good.
Constructionally, it is also hand made from machined aluminium as
opposed to sheet metal steel. It is very much hand crafted.
Then start adding distributor / dealer mark up percentages and
you get the picture...
It's not necessarily the way I would do it but I still respect their
approach.
The main point is this guy has come up with product of the year
with his first product (to my knowledge) and those people listen
to a lot of amps... he is a very small manufacturer and this is a
great acheivment, so I say...
** good luck to him **
Cheers
Terry
I am aware that it is built very nicely and that one can't offer amps that are built in small numbers for the same price as some far-east gear.
But there is also Swiss-made audio gear in the same price-range where much more effort has been put into:
http://www.soulution-audio.com/english/710highlights.html
Regards
Charles
I like both amps actually.
Phase-accurate may like Soulution's amp because they are from the german canton of Schweitzerland.
While 20,000 for the dartzeel are alot of USDs, I can understand the prices. While the circuitry may classic the instrumentation-level build costs alot of money. I don't know where they get the machining and custom finishing done done but based upon the swiss manifacturing costs I would guesstimate each case alone would cost a couple of thousand dollars to make. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole amp cost 5k in materials alone.
Phase-accurate may like Soulution's amp because they are from the german canton of Schweitzerland.
While 20,000 for the dartzeel are alot of USDs, I can understand the prices. While the circuitry may classic the instrumentation-level build costs alot of money. I don't know where they get the machining and custom finishing done done but based upon the swiss manifacturing costs I would guesstimate each case alone would cost a couple of thousand dollars to make. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole amp cost 5k in materials alone.
grataku said:
Can you point to the reasons why ?
Anodising the front plate and heatsink can be done in any color without much added costs.
Some audio companies in Europe have offered their models with red anodised heatsinks and chromed fronts for an additional few hundred dollars.
The transformer pans do not impress me, and putting them on vibration dampers does not add up to 5 big bills, the components on the boards look pretty standard stuff to me.
Adding a lot of cash to the price tag by using golden buss bars in order to spread the power supply capacitors more efficiently is a waste of money.
If you ever go to "Die Schweiz", "La Suisse" or "Svizzera Italiana", visit Franco Sbarro in a village called Grandson. He builds one-off cars, or rebuilds production models. They look great, but the price is staggering. Only part of the money is justified, the large part goes to limited production number cost and " Swiss made".
Personally, i favor a Breil Ducati watch. Italian, not Swiss.
The usual margin for consumer products is around five to one, retail to manufacturing costs. If you factor in foreign importation, you could adjust this upwards to six times.
I can easily see about $US3K in the DarTZeel, particularly when you account for patent protection, R&D, warranty, marketing and UL/CE certification.
Sure, it's expensive, but it's beautifully made, it's original design, according to 6Moons it performs up there with the best in the world, it's probably very well serviced and supported, and it will probably be a collectible within a few years.
Besides, if you were a multimillionaire, what proportion of your wealth would be absorbed by this purchase? 0.05%, 0.5%, whatever???
Cheers,
Hugh
I can easily see about $US3K in the DarTZeel, particularly when you account for patent protection, R&D, warranty, marketing and UL/CE certification.
Sure, it's expensive, but it's beautifully made, it's original design, according to 6Moons it performs up there with the best in the world, it's probably very well serviced and supported, and it will probably be a collectible within a few years.
Besides, if you were a multimillionaire, what proportion of your wealth would be absorbed by this purchase? 0.05%, 0.5%, whatever???
Cheers,
Hugh
Apart from wages (which are quite high in this part of the world) such certifications do indeed cost a lot of money, the cost of which are then spread over a much smaller quantity of equipment than mass-market products.
I haven't seen the DarTZeel from close up but I have seen the Soulution from close up (it sounds fine as well BTW !) and it is a serious kind of equipment I can assure you. There is definitely more material (and enginnering work) in this one than in the DarTZeel but it is in the same price-range approx. But the manufacturer is in the comfortable situation of beeing part of a large supplier to the automotive industry and has therefore access to generous production facilities (maybe including certification labs) that the small manufacturer of the DarTZeel doesn't have.
Would I buy one of these ? Definitely no. Would I like to have a listen to the DarTZeel ? Definitely yes.
Regards
Charles
jacco vermeulen said:
It's not fair to compare diy with commercial products and say that commercial products are too expensive. People here spend 5-600 USD easy to build your run of the mill Aleph clone and endup with chassis put together with aluminum L's cut with a hacksaw. So I'd do the reverse and say diy creations are too expensive.
I look at what it costs me to start a project from scratch, the time it takes and the money it costs me. I had to make a sizeable investiment in instruments and materials so now I can pretty much build whatever amp I feel like because I have tons of trafos, caps, semis and resistors etc. I didn't do that on purpose but rather it was the way the hobby evolved in time. In the end if I look at what I spent through the years I could have probably bought the DartZeel over.
jacco vermeulen said:
Personally, I would not buy this Swiss amp (too expensive), but Jacco, I do favor some Swiss items as for your watch suggestion, I like the "Sub" line of watches from Doxa (made in Switzerland) just got my first "real" watch, a reissue Sub 600 T-Graph and love it. Its actually not that outrageously priced....I don't think.
this just in
By the way, the DarTZeel is really a DIY amplifier. Stereophile chronicled its creation in a six part series.
Search their web site for "DIY Chronicles Part" and you will get the 6 articles.
or click here
Don't know if someone else brought this up or not, but sorry if its a reapeat, I don't recall it on this thread.
By the way, the DarTZeel is really a DIY amplifier. Stereophile chronicled its creation in a six part series.
Search their web site for "DIY Chronicles Part" and you will get the 6 articles.
or click here
Don't know if someone else brought this up or not, but sorry if its a reapeat, I don't recall it on this thread.
Well , I can recall when I was supervising an installation in the ME for 3 months. We'd go down to the souk and watch the evening parade past window after window of gold and diamond encrusted jewellery and watches.. and I thought how gauche, is that what people here aspire to, trying to understand the culture.
These days I don't wear a watch. They're uncomfortable to me and a hazard for electrocution when working on amplifiers. My computer has a clock, our car has a clock, even the mobile phone has a clock ... and they all tell the time to the nearest 10 minutes.
But I do really enthuse over some new energy saving measure or environmental protocol... can really see the worth of that. Or trying to change the odds for survival of these plover chicks born in our street last week against being eaten by domestic cats -
Cheers,
greg
These days I don't wear a watch. They're uncomfortable to me and a hazard for electrocution when working on amplifiers. My computer has a clock, our car has a clock, even the mobile phone has a clock ... and they all tell the time to the nearest 10 minutes.
But I do really enthuse over some new energy saving measure or environmental protocol... can really see the worth of that.
Or trying to change the odds for survival of these plover chicks born in our street last week against being eaten by domestic cats - Cheers,
greg
Attachments
phase_accurate said:
If you own a Rolex and visit Hong Kong or Thailand at some point: buying a reproduction can be a dissapointment!
A fake Oyster is more reliable and ticks more accurate, save the real one for a night at the opera. A relative of mine has been wearing soap box watches for the last 15 after her Omega dying on her five times.
Nice Doxa ticker, Mr Green.
All of the audio designers i've had the fortune to speak to had a passion. I can not recall a single one who did not roll into it from a hobby, and i've met quite a few. The ones i read about tell the same tale.
The Krell KSA was received very well 20 years ago, and still is a collectible. An amplifier with plenty hardware, it did not cost 20 bills then, would it have been launched now it would not cost that much.
Also, 20 years ago, the Hiraga Le Classe A occupied shop window displays.
That one was a remarkable amplifier too at the time. Also carried a lot of expensive hardware, some of the parts were even red like the DarTZeel's. But like the Krell, did not cost the equivalent of a 2005 Mustang either. And you could even visit a shop in Paris and buy some or all the parts needed to build one yourself, as i did.
The DIY Hiraga later pulled a fully commercial trigger with the EL34 tube pushpull JH50 amplifier. Also well received, enjoyed by me, and cost less than 3 US big ones. I can not vision Jean-boy asking 20K for something he'd put on the market for Christmas 2005.
I happen to live in a millionaire street, i've met more guys with normal jobs blowing their cash on audio money pits than witnessing a big timer open his wallet. My neighbor divides his time driving his M AMG and restoring an old VW Beetle, his wife between her Beamer convertible and the hairdresser. One of these days he'll catch me and i have to listen to hours of Volkswagen tales.
Mr Ball, those chickens look very tasty.
I want front row seat for the DarTZeel show, but i've spent way too much on amplifier components to buy ready-made.
Mr Deletraz probably woke up one morning screaming, realising he blew all of his cash on a hobby too and figured he had to find a way to get it back, lots of it.
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