Hi Lineup,
Products with 'honey pot attractant' appearances and tropospheric prices certainly bring out the wannabes? Why is that, Hugh - you're the full bottle here?
What I see is a very ordinary design that probably started out as 100W 8 ohm AB and, through necessity morphed into something else again.
Look at the first stage for example. Complementary emitter followers referenced to the rails ( say 45V). Straight away power supply hash is going to enter the signal path at -65 dB. That means if it was run in AB from the get go, you'd be listening to PS commutation artefacts at every level. UGh!
Solution ( here we go again) , turn up the wick so it runs in Class A for 20W. that should do it., no more PS artefacts. Add 105W of heat and big heatsinks and continuous duty PS to accomodate that. Oh and better add lots of PS C to keep the ripple inaudible. Let's see as 20W rms 8 ohms it'll need 1.125A continuous so those nasty AB commie artefacts dont add to the input signal. To get that input stage ripple down to industry standard levels is going to need some 100,000 uF of PS C as well, so better put that in. Now there's some pretty heavy charging spike currents running around the ether. Better machine the chassis out of a solid metal block to shield things and double as a massive heatsink for those single pair of output devices. They're running at junctions of 35C above ambient just idling and the output stage is temp derated to 400W - still capable of 100W into 8, and 160+W into 4 at a pinch?
Yes folks this is pinnacle design in pinnacle design clothing?
Isn't it interesting how these audio hacks whose 'raison d'etre' is to wax lyrical and pick a yearly prize can do so with such integrity? And so different from prior?
Cheers,
Greg
Products with 'honey pot attractant' appearances and tropospheric prices certainly bring out the wannabes? Why is that, Hugh - you're the full bottle here?
What I see is a very ordinary design that probably started out as 100W 8 ohm AB and, through necessity morphed into something else again.
Look at the first stage for example. Complementary emitter followers referenced to the rails ( say 45V). Straight away power supply hash is going to enter the signal path at -65 dB. That means if it was run in AB from the get go, you'd be listening to PS commutation artefacts at every level. UGh!
Solution ( here we go again) , turn up the wick so it runs in Class A for 20W. that should do it., no more PS artefacts. Add 105W of heat and big heatsinks and continuous duty PS to accomodate that. Oh and better add lots of PS C to keep the ripple inaudible. Let's see as 20W rms 8 ohms it'll need 1.125A continuous so those nasty AB commie artefacts dont add to the input signal. To get that input stage ripple down to industry standard levels is going to need some 100,000 uF of PS C as well, so better put that in. Now there's some pretty heavy charging spike currents running around the ether. Better machine the chassis out of a solid metal block to shield things and double as a massive heatsink for those single pair of output devices. They're running at junctions of 35C above ambient just idling and the output stage is temp derated to 400W - still capable of 100W into 8, and 160+W into 4 at a pinch?
Yes folks this is pinnacle design in pinnacle design clothing?
Isn't it interesting how these audio hacks whose 'raison d'etre' is to wax lyrical and pick a yearly prize can do so with such integrity? And so different from prior?
Cheers,
Greg
amplifierguru said:
Excellent Christmas, got "bashed" by all the kids. Uncle Greg seems to become a punching bag once the kids get their dose of sugar.
I thought you were Greg #1, I'm happy to be sidelined - waiting to help
You've been in such fine form lately, I think you deserve the #1. Maate, some of your commercials were sooooo subtle.
Hope you had a good one.
regards
greg
amplifierguru said:
You got a nice scenario plotted out for how it all went down, and that comes from someone that has been know for expressing strong opinions here once or twice.
Out of pure and sincere curiosity, would you mind pointing me to a couple of solid state designs that are, in your guru's opinion, "extraordinary"?
Knowledge and learning .......leads to Wisdom?
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all.
We have some more bashing going on here. Maybe we should note that over time we have moved 'on' and made better amps from previous years.
Lots of design , experimentation and listening . Each one of those takes time. So in all fairness we should respect others for what they have done just like we want others to respect us for what we are doing.
Some average products get to the market and make money because a great design alone is not enough to make money. There are lots of components to it which are just as important as the design.
Manufactureability, marketing strategy , sales capability , support are just some of them. Some average products are a great success because of a great marketing team. That's LIFE !
If I design the best products in the world and can't sell them or make any money out of it , I cannot complain about others being no good and selling poor designs. They just got their ACT together which I could not do !
So one should sit back and look at what is really happening. If you understand how one can make a success out of an average product , you can apply those methods to market a great design/product and it will surely be successful.
You can learn from EVERYONE around you whether they are successful or not in life. Absorbing knowledge from everyone and everything around you is Wisdom. It helps one rise above our usual mundane average life. Its a great way to be Happy !.
Find out how your competition is successful with a poorer product and apply those methods to your product. No one can stop you from becoming successful.
Happy 2006 to ALL.
Cheers,
Ashok.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all.
We have some more bashing going on here. Maybe we should note that over time we have moved 'on' and made better amps from previous years.
Lots of design , experimentation and listening . Each one of those takes time. So in all fairness we should respect others for what they have done just like we want others to respect us for what we are doing.
Some average products get to the market and make money because a great design alone is not enough to make money. There are lots of components to it which are just as important as the design.
Manufactureability, marketing strategy , sales capability , support are just some of them. Some average products are a great success because of a great marketing team. That's LIFE !
If I design the best products in the world and can't sell them or make any money out of it , I cannot complain about others being no good and selling poor designs. They just got their ACT together which I could not do !
So one should sit back and look at what is really happening. If you understand how one can make a success out of an average product , you can apply those methods to market a great design/product and it will surely be successful.
You can learn from EVERYONE around you whether they are successful or not in life. Absorbing knowledge from everyone and everything around you is Wisdom. It helps one rise above our usual mundane average life. Its a great way to be Happy !.
Find out how your competition is successful with a poorer product and apply those methods to your product. No one can stop you from becoming successful.
Happy 2006 to ALL.
Cheers,
Ashok.
Hi Ashok,
Appreciate your comments and seasons Greetings.
As I sit here in record temps I wonder if Herve ever considered to eliminate the PSRR achilles heel of this design so the 'less romantic' than proffered course of events might not have taken place and a really nice Class AB that consumed only 40-60W of power was born rather than a 225W + behemoth.
Am I close Herve?
Imagine if every product we western consoomers are deemed to need, consoomed 225W instead of 50W? We've only one planet.
Let's act responsibly, and cleverly lower our footprint!
Cheerrs,
Greg
Appreciate your comments and seasons Greetings.
As I sit here in record temps I wonder if Herve ever considered to eliminate the PSRR achilles heel of this design so the 'less romantic' than proffered course of events might not have taken place and a really nice Class AB that consumed only 40-60W of power was born rather than a 225W + behemoth.
Am I close Herve?
Imagine if every product we western consoomers are deemed to need, consoomed 225W instead of 50W? We've only one planet.
Let's act responsibly, and cleverly lower our footprint!
Cheerrs,
Greg
Hi Greg,
I agree fully on the need to save power or any other resource on planet Earth. We are just driving ourselves to doomsday if we don't slow down.
You can't stop anyone from doing anything they want to. In this case one should make a better product that consumes less power , sounds better or just as good , costs less and market it well. It will kill the gas guzzlers and save the planet and make someone a lot of money !
But some people like Fantastic looks and they will PAY for great looking packaging on products. Such products are for them and not those who want most bang for the buck. Every product has its own market !
So you can see how classD also has a great opportunity . Low power consumption, low cost , and already beginning to sound decent ( I have three kits !) and potential to improve pretty fast.
It will also come out in great garb and be sold for astronomical prices ! That's how things work on Mother Earth .
Cheers,
Ashok.
I agree fully on the need to save power or any other resource on planet Earth. We are just driving ourselves to doomsday if we don't slow down.
You can't stop anyone from doing anything they want to. In this case one should make a better product that consumes less power , sounds better or just as good , costs less and market it well. It will kill the gas guzzlers and save the planet and make someone a lot of money !
But some people like Fantastic looks and they will PAY for great looking packaging on products. Such products are for them and not those who want most bang for the buck. Every product has its own market !
So you can see how classD also has a great opportunity . Low power consumption, low cost , and already beginning to sound decent ( I have three kits !) and potential to improve pretty fast.
It will also come out in great garb and be sold for astronomical prices ! That's how things work on Mother Earth .
Cheers,
Ashok.
Greg,
Not true at all. You reveal rather more about yourself than Herve or his design. Why not sit back dispassionately and observe the situation?
You seem to need the approbation of others here; your self-title amp guru moniker, the airing of your knowledge and your calling on the arcane engineering priesthood shows that. You want to sell your own product, but you make the mistake of bashing others' creations to do it. You don't seem to understand that many people have electronics skills without the formal math background, but you must give credit where it's due. Amps must be designed from an engineering standpoint, it's true; but it's true that amps should be designed from a sonic viewpoint too. I believe you realise that designing a better mousetrap is only half the battle, the tough part is convincing others to shell out their cash for your designs. I truly wish you luck, Greg, because I know how difficult this is. Incidentally, I claim no particular success here, and prefer to concentrate on the sound qualities and the issues of human aural perception rather than the technology; and I emphatically compete with no-one except myself.
I like the NHB design, but I'm hardly gushing, as I've not yet heard the NHB108. But I do know enough about SS electronics to realise this design would sound very different to most that I have heard. It may not sound better, but it will certainly sound different, and in this market that is a valuable differentiator. Read what the reviews say; it can't all be bad, or corrupt, or concocted; there must be something to it. And if you think the circuit you've seen on the web is actually the one used, think again; surely you, as a past manufacturer, wouldn't be so naive as to believe that the input emitter followers are not adequately decoupled?
In any event, this is not a flame, Greg. I really would like you to consider looking at every design you see and trying to pick out the best features of each, then perhaps synthesizing them into a completely new design. Your SKA is good, but there might be other circuit blocks which would be better still. Even you believe this, as your patented circuit is evidently, in your estimation, superior.
So, you have the patent in the bag, the pcb is designed and elegant, let's see a nice chassis, a retail product out there, reviews and all, praised and criticised along with all the other designs you decry.
Cheers,
Hugh
Not true at all. You reveal rather more about yourself than Herve or his design. Why not sit back dispassionately and observe the situation?
You seem to need the approbation of others here; your self-title amp guru moniker, the airing of your knowledge and your calling on the arcane engineering priesthood shows that. You want to sell your own product, but you make the mistake of bashing others' creations to do it. You don't seem to understand that many people have electronics skills without the formal math background, but you must give credit where it's due. Amps must be designed from an engineering standpoint, it's true; but it's true that amps should be designed from a sonic viewpoint too. I believe you realise that designing a better mousetrap is only half the battle, the tough part is convincing others to shell out their cash for your designs. I truly wish you luck, Greg, because I know how difficult this is. Incidentally, I claim no particular success here, and prefer to concentrate on the sound qualities and the issues of human aural perception rather than the technology; and I emphatically compete with no-one except myself.
I like the NHB design, but I'm hardly gushing, as I've not yet heard the NHB108. But I do know enough about SS electronics to realise this design would sound very different to most that I have heard. It may not sound better, but it will certainly sound different, and in this market that is a valuable differentiator. Read what the reviews say; it can't all be bad, or corrupt, or concocted; there must be something to it. And if you think the circuit you've seen on the web is actually the one used, think again; surely you, as a past manufacturer, wouldn't be so naive as to believe that the input emitter followers are not adequately decoupled?
In any event, this is not a flame, Greg. I really would like you to consider looking at every design you see and trying to pick out the best features of each, then perhaps synthesizing them into a completely new design. Your SKA is good, but there might be other circuit blocks which would be better still. Even you believe this, as your patented circuit is evidently, in your estimation, superior.
So, you have the patent in the bag, the pcb is designed and elegant, let's see a nice chassis, a retail product out there, reviews and all, praised and criticised along with all the other designs you decry.
Cheers,
Hugh
Hi guys well said
if you have a look at the design it is in the lines of hiraga and
borberly a symmetrical one i think i should leave the details to
work out for yourselves it leans more towards hiraga simplicity
rather than borberly overkill ,the hart of the circuit is the multi
stage vas where fb is incorporated also of note is the bias of
the output stage beutifully thought out, overall a design so innovative (what you think?) that is up there with those of the
legends mentioned, i dont know how it sounds but i like it
Regards
if you have a look at the design it is in the lines of hiraga and
borberly a symmetrical one i think i should leave the details to
work out for yourselves it leans more towards hiraga simplicity
rather than borberly overkill ,the hart of the circuit is the multi
stage vas where fb is incorporated also of note is the bias of
the output stage beutifully thought out, overall a design so innovative (what you think?) that is up there with those of the
legends mentioned, i dont know how it sounds but i like it
Regards
Hugh,
Don't psycho-analyse me, you're out of your depth - or are you qualified in that too? Stick to schmoozing.
If I see poorly conceived or inappropriate engineering in my field I'll say so. I am infinitely more qualified than you to judge something like this. And with a more worldly perspective, it appears.
You criticise my moniker, why? What on earth's an AKSA. Have I seen a CRO photo, a distortion residual? are they secret. Oh I get it, you've listened and their superior. Please.
My Eidetic amplifiers sold themselves on sheer sound quality against the creme de la creme. No push, no schmooze. I can do it again but I care for my family.
My kit's are a service to DIY, not designed to make money, just to cover costs. Sounds like you're hurting?
I really care what you think.
Hi Mastertech,
Thanks, I say it like I see it, without spin.
You get excited by this? Really? My experience allows me to home straight in on weaknesses - it's my strength.
Cheers,
Greg
Don't psycho-analyse me, you're out of your depth - or are you qualified in that too? Stick to schmoozing.
If I see poorly conceived or inappropriate engineering in my field I'll say so. I am infinitely more qualified than you to judge something like this. And with a more worldly perspective, it appears.
You criticise my moniker, why? What on earth's an AKSA. Have I seen a CRO photo, a distortion residual? are they secret. Oh I get it, you've listened and their superior. Please.
My Eidetic amplifiers sold themselves on sheer sound quality against the creme de la creme. No push, no schmooze. I can do it again but I care for my family.
My kit's are a service to DIY, not designed to make money, just to cover costs. Sounds like you're hurting?
I really care what you think.
Hi Mastertech,
Thanks, I say it like I see it, without spin.
You get excited by this? Really? My experience allows me to home straight in on weaknesses - it's my strength.
Cheers,
Greg
amplifierguru said:
Greg,
Why didn't you say this a long time ago so I could have stopped reading this thread? Since you evidently don't produce anything commercially (for a real profit), you are therefore somewhat disqualified from rendering an opinion on how or why a particular product costs what it does. Herve either has massive bills to pay to justify the 20k price tag, or he's sticking 18k at a time in his wallet. After wasting so much of his life just to bring a single amplifier to market, I would admire him just as much either way.
Now where is the link to your kits or other offerings that should be in your sig?
Hi Mt Biker,
As long ago as 1974 I had my own manufacturing company employing 17 staff, producing a range of amplifiers, mixing desks, loudspeakers, active crossovers, equalizers, theatrical lighting desks, and high rise apt fire alert/alarm/evac systems all designed by myself . All staff were young people multiskill trained by myself in sscreen printing, spray painting, metal fabrication, PCB assembly, soldering, testing, etc...
We took in raw sheet metal and PCBs were made to my design next door and turned out packaged products. I did the artwork for PCB's , and faceplates, I did the chassis design, and wrote operation manuals. Then I wen't out and quoted on installations and ensured timely completion.
I was proudest of the fact that I took 17 unemployed youth and trained them in valued skills. Many went on to do courses in related technical areas. Staff turnover was near zero.
Thanks for your interest.
Cheers,
Greg
As long ago as 1974 I had my own manufacturing company employing 17 staff, producing a range of amplifiers, mixing desks, loudspeakers, active crossovers, equalizers, theatrical lighting desks, and high rise apt fire alert/alarm/evac systems all designed by myself . All staff were young people multiskill trained by myself in sscreen printing, spray painting, metal fabrication, PCB assembly, soldering, testing, etc...
We took in raw sheet metal and PCBs were made to my design next door and turned out packaged products. I did the artwork for PCB's , and faceplates, I did the chassis design, and wrote operation manuals. Then I wen't out and quoted on installations and ensured timely completion.
I was proudest of the fact that I took 17 unemployed youth and trained them in valued skills. Many went on to do courses in related technical areas. Staff turnover was near zero.
Thanks for your interest.
Cheers,
Greg
Hi Greg,
What happened to your company ?
Maybe it's time to start a new one.
Steve Jobbs of Mac computers fame was kicked out of his own company and lolled around dejected for a while till he started another successful company .
Just trying to say it is never too late to start another company!
Another thing........something I've always been told by experienced elders:
NEVER give away anything free , it will never be appreciated .
You don't have to sell kits at cost . Most people buying them are making money working and can afford to pay a markup on cost price. Youngsters will find ways to rustle up the money and they will eventually be making money in any case.
Why should you do all the hard work and not expect any returns on investment of Knowledge, Time and Money ?
STOP posting here for a while and get your new company going ! Wish you all the best and I'm sure you have the best wishes from everyone else on this forum.
Make it a Great New Year!
Cheers.
Ashok.
What happened to your company ?
Maybe it's time to start a new one.
Steve Jobbs of Mac computers fame was kicked out of his own company and lolled around dejected for a while till he started another successful company .
Just trying to say it is never too late to start another company!
Another thing........something I've always been told by experienced elders:
NEVER give away anything free , it will never be appreciated .
You don't have to sell kits at cost . Most people buying them are making money working and can afford to pay a markup on cost price. Youngsters will find ways to rustle up the money and they will eventually be making money in any case.
Why should you do all the hard work and not expect any returns on investment of Knowledge, Time and Money ?
STOP posting here for a while and get your new company going ! Wish you all the best and I'm sure you have the best wishes from everyone else on this forum.
Make it a Great New Year!
Cheers.
Ashok.
Hi Greg, i welcome your critisim, ive seen photos of your eidetic
amps and they looked really cool, youve mentioned that you were
manufacturing in the seventies an era where solid state
were king,do you know something, i like your amp why dont you
publish it at stereophile.com to see what respond you'll get
also if you have any other technical things to say about this amp
please enlighten us, you seem like a bright fellow
Regards
amps and they looked really cool, youve mentioned that you were
manufacturing in the seventies an era where solid state
were king,do you know something, i like your amp why dont you
publish it at stereophile.com to see what respond you'll get
also if you have any other technical things to say about this amp
please enlighten us, you seem like a bright fellow
Regards
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