The DarTZeel is even more expensive here, about $25.000.
In England list price is 14.000 pounds.
That kind of money buys a Pass Labs set, X1 and X350.5/XA100.
Aquiring audio gear with green leaves no room for the pleasure of creativity.
My girlfriend calls me a triple Dutch screap.
Does not mean i think it is a bad amplifier, the design philosophy of Mr Herve as described in the tech manual of the amplifier is right up my alley.
Just bad business, and a spenderish "investment".
e.g., putting a frame web insert in the chassis gives the same rigidity and shielding, yet at a fraction of the cost of machining from solid.
In England list price is 14.000 pounds.
That kind of money buys a Pass Labs set, X1 and X350.5/XA100.
Aquiring audio gear with green leaves no room for the pleasure of creativity.
My girlfriend calls me a triple Dutch screap.
Does not mean i think it is a bad amplifier, the design philosophy of Mr Herve as described in the tech manual of the amplifier is right up my alley.
Just bad business, and a spenderish "investment".
e.g., putting a frame web insert in the chassis gives the same rigidity and shielding, yet at a fraction of the cost of machining from solid.
Jacco, and others interested in the DarTZeel,
I took the opportunity to write to Herve Delatraz, the designer of the DarTZeel as I was very interested in the process by which he arrived at the design and production of this exceptional product. He seems a most sincere and urbane man. There is no doubt he is passionate, too. Here is his reply, reproduced here with his permission.
Are our machines too expensive? Why do they cost so high with so few components inside? Is the sound worth the price? Did we buy the awards we received? And so on... Of course not all of these topics are covered in all forums, but these cover the general trend.
Most of adverse comments on forums are generated by people who never had a good listen, or never had a close look inside, or never even tried to figure out how much it would cost to make one sample of this machine in their kitchen... My first DIY project shown in Stereophile cost me more than CHF 14'000 at the time, in 1999-2000. I don't care if nobody believes me, or if a DIYer tells me he can build the very same for a fraction of the price. It would barely look the same, but I know it wouldn't be the same. It's 30 years I'm in the audio field, so I begin to know about this hobby.....
There are close to 600 electronic components in the darTZeel amplifier, so I simply don't understand how a guy who'd never dismantled one of our machines can say "other Swiss guys put a lot more inside for the money". And part counts has little to do with sound quality, anyhow.
Also, if we could apply a worldwide patent on the schematic design, it is just because I didn't copy it from Mr. Hiraga, Pass, Otala, or whomever. Maybe US or English people don't know, but here in Europe - and especially in Switzerland - patent attorneys make a lot of research, just knowing if a patent claim has already been patented or not. I did patent my design because it was an original one, never officially designed before.
Well, all in all, I frankly think that people in audio forums should rather directly ask me (moreinfo@dartzeel.com ; I will answer any pertinent message, provided that a valid reason and name is given) instead of chatting about things little known or understood, thus too often leading to false conclusions. Or maybe they should take some time to listen to our products. I personally don't pretend to design the best audio gear in the world. We just offer what we wanted to. We are very happy that an increasing number of passionate audiophiles buy our machines. Believe us, if we could make them cheaper, with the very same level of quality, we would do it.
So there you have it. You get unimpeachable quality, and like most things in life, you get what you pay for. Only a very few products are absolute bargains; perhaps, after hearing Herve's amplifier, I might think it's an absolute bargain anyway!
Cheers,
Hugh
I took the opportunity to write to Herve Delatraz, the designer of the DarTZeel as I was very interested in the process by which he arrived at the design and production of this exceptional product. He seems a most sincere and urbane man. There is no doubt he is passionate, too. Here is his reply, reproduced here with his permission.
Are our machines too expensive? Why do they cost so high with so few components inside? Is the sound worth the price? Did we buy the awards we received? And so on... Of course not all of these topics are covered in all forums, but these cover the general trend.
Most of adverse comments on forums are generated by people who never had a good listen, or never had a close look inside, or never even tried to figure out how much it would cost to make one sample of this machine in their kitchen... My first DIY project shown in Stereophile cost me more than CHF 14'000 at the time, in 1999-2000. I don't care if nobody believes me, or if a DIYer tells me he can build the very same for a fraction of the price. It would barely look the same, but I know it wouldn't be the same. It's 30 years I'm in the audio field, so I begin to know about this hobby.....
There are close to 600 electronic components in the darTZeel amplifier, so I simply don't understand how a guy who'd never dismantled one of our machines can say "other Swiss guys put a lot more inside for the money". And part counts has little to do with sound quality, anyhow.
Also, if we could apply a worldwide patent on the schematic design, it is just because I didn't copy it from Mr. Hiraga, Pass, Otala, or whomever. Maybe US or English people don't know, but here in Europe - and especially in Switzerland - patent attorneys make a lot of research, just knowing if a patent claim has already been patented or not. I did patent my design because it was an original one, never officially designed before.
Well, all in all, I frankly think that people in audio forums should rather directly ask me (moreinfo@dartzeel.com ; I will answer any pertinent message, provided that a valid reason and name is given) instead of chatting about things little known or understood, thus too often leading to false conclusions. Or maybe they should take some time to listen to our products. I personally don't pretend to design the best audio gear in the world. We just offer what we wanted to. We are very happy that an increasing number of passionate audiophiles buy our machines. Believe us, if we could make them cheaper, with the very same level of quality, we would do it.
So there you have it. You get unimpeachable quality, and like most things in life, you get what you pay for. Only a very few products are absolute bargains; perhaps, after hearing Herve's amplifier, I might think it's an absolute bargain anyway!
Cheers,
Hugh
Greg,
I dunno about that. I don't see it as patronising; I do see it as a bit elitist, but I don't believe it's the same, and from where he's standing, he's done the R&D and all the listening tests, so I feel he should be permitted to answer his critics.......
I for one would be most interested in a double blind test of your patent pending amp against his NHB108. I have no axe to grind, but somehow it might be difficult to arrange. Why don't you email him, ask directly?
As for the emperor's new clothes, I honestly believe that the differences between good amps and exceptional ones are buried so finely in the detail you'd hardly be able to tell from the schematic. This is what you are paying for.
David,
No, I didn't ask about the offset. Would you like me to?
Merry Christmas, Gang. You are an entertaining, intelligent lot.....
Cheers,
Hugh
I dunno about that. I don't see it as patronising; I do see it as a bit elitist, but I don't believe it's the same, and from where he's standing, he's done the R&D and all the listening tests, so I feel he should be permitted to answer his critics.......
I for one would be most interested in a double blind test of your patent pending amp against his NHB108. I have no axe to grind, but somehow it might be difficult to arrange. Why don't you email him, ask directly?
As for the emperor's new clothes, I honestly believe that the differences between good amps and exceptional ones are buried so finely in the detail you'd hardly be able to tell from the schematic. This is what you are paying for.
David,
No, I didn't ask about the offset. Would you like me to?
Merry Christmas, Gang. You are an entertaining, intelligent lot.....
Cheers,
Hugh
amplifierguru said:Hi Hugh,
How patronising is that?
What's Swiss for pretentious? I'd happily put my 'patent pending' amp up against his offering. Winner takes all! Double Blind.
the Emperor's new clothes?
Cheers,
greg
You may be surprised Greg.
Most people who design these esoteric 0 x FB amps such as Pass
etc have been the route of high FB very low THD measuring designs
and moved on.
I am not dismissing your design, I think it is brilliant and a breath of
fresh air amongst most others currently being offered. I would love
to hear it some day.
Have you compared your amp to any big $ class A designs or
open loop designs? It can be quite an eye opener.
Cheers,
Terry
Hi Terry,
Thanks for your appreciation.
Yes I've done that well and truly and they were left wanting - the big Class A's that is. So I can only conclude that there's more money to be made out of selling oversize, overbuilt 'low or no NFB', 'low TIM', 'Class A' or whatever else is in vogue..... or even worse... that they don't know how to do a good Class AB! Perhaps that's it - Class AB is simply harder to do well!
Whatever it is, the audio world and the world in general will be poorer for it. Such engineering excess in the thin disguise of audio nirvana is unsustainable.
Merry Christmas all
remember those less fortunate
Greg
Thanks for your appreciation.
Yes I've done that well and truly and they were left wanting - the big Class A's that is. So I can only conclude that there's more money to be made out of selling oversize, overbuilt 'low or no NFB', 'low TIM', 'Class A' or whatever else is in vogue..... or even worse... that they don't know how to do a good Class AB! Perhaps that's it - Class AB is simply harder to do well!
Whatever it is, the audio world and the world in general will be poorer for it. Such engineering excess in the thin disguise of audio nirvana is unsustainable.
Merry Christmas all
remember those less fortunate
Greg
If they were still made i would love to own a Lagonda.
For the sunday afternoon drive i'd strap a Vacherin Constantin watch around my wrist and put on a decadent smile.
That car manufacturer did not make money, or made the best cars in the world at any time.
The Swiss watch manufacturer was the first, and does not make the best watches in the world either.
But both the car and the watch are/were the epidome of lavish beauty.
If Mr Herve spreads the overhead of r&d and worldwide patenting on a limited series amplifier then he is producing something that is bought because it is exclusive, and value for money does not hold.
Produce a second series for half the price or sell the patent to a big fish and the customers who bought a first series model will not have value for money and exclusivity either.
Doubtfull that a DarTZeel will become a collectible in that case.
Unlikely that someone will buy a DarTZeel because it is good and worth the Swiss Francs.
As are the watches of Audemars Piquet, Patek Philippe and Vacherin Constantin, it will be sold because of high price exclusivity and Swiss made.
Mr Hugh, thank you for the pleasant pun and pointers.
Wishing you, Mr Ball, and Anthony Tagg a Merry Christmas and good fortune.
(remember that the fortunate fortune ones not allways were )
For the sunday afternoon drive i'd strap a Vacherin Constantin watch around my wrist and put on a decadent smile.
That car manufacturer did not make money, or made the best cars in the world at any time.
The Swiss watch manufacturer was the first, and does not make the best watches in the world either.
But both the car and the watch are/were the epidome of lavish beauty.
If Mr Herve spreads the overhead of r&d and worldwide patenting on a limited series amplifier then he is producing something that is bought because it is exclusive, and value for money does not hold.
Produce a second series for half the price or sell the patent to a big fish and the customers who bought a first series model will not have value for money and exclusivity either.
Doubtfull that a DarTZeel will become a collectible in that case.
Unlikely that someone will buy a DarTZeel because it is good and worth the Swiss Francs.
As are the watches of Audemars Piquet, Patek Philippe and Vacherin Constantin, it will be sold because of high price exclusivity and Swiss made.
Mr Hugh, thank you for the pleasant pun and pointers.
Wishing you, Mr Ball, and Anthony Tagg a Merry Christmas and good fortune.
(remember that the fortunate fortune ones not allways were )
Jacco,
Your taste always impresses me. And your delightful gesture to 'put on a decadent smile' is something deeply intellectual which greatly appeals, hinting at the amused indulgence which seems the hallmark of thinkers.......
I would choose the Hispano Suiza, in my view an infinitely better vehicle than a Roller, though I don't know the Lagonda. The American engineer who developed and commissioned the first FM radio station in NYC owned an H-S for 28 years, and no, it didn't have a radio in it!
Many years ago I drove a 300SEL 6.3. That impressed me greatly, too. Recently I drove a BMW 760, and while the engine and drive train were deeply impressive, I couldn't stand the look of it.
Never cared for timepieces, sadly.
My problem is that I just don't love money enough......
Merry Christmas, all!
Cheers,
Hugh
Your taste always impresses me. And your delightful gesture to 'put on a decadent smile' is something deeply intellectual which greatly appeals, hinting at the amused indulgence which seems the hallmark of thinkers.......
I would choose the Hispano Suiza, in my view an infinitely better vehicle than a Roller, though I don't know the Lagonda. The American engineer who developed and commissioned the first FM radio station in NYC owned an H-S for 28 years, and no, it didn't have a radio in it!
Many years ago I drove a 300SEL 6.3. That impressed me greatly, too. Recently I drove a BMW 760, and while the engine and drive train were deeply impressive, I couldn't stand the look of it.
Never cared for timepieces, sadly.
My problem is that I just don't love money enough......
Merry Christmas, all!
Cheers,
Hugh
I don't understand all the hostility toward HD, the comments about attitude, price, even Mr AKSA unusual interest in the matter.
It looks to me like there's a lot of envy for someone that made it among the big boys. Contrary to most self proclaimed audio gurus around here the guy is the real deal, an actual engineer, that worked hard and was smart enough and passionate enough about audio to work on his own and make it a good business.
Knowing a few things about Switzerland, and a few things about machining and the cost of parts I have no doubt believing how much the prototype cost. Take it or leave it. One thing I know is that HD must have been damn certain is circuit was good before embarking in the chassis costruction.
In any case, the price doesn't seem all that much higher than any other top of the line product out there so I really don't get it.
It looks to me like there's a lot of envy for someone that made it among the big boys. Contrary to most self proclaimed audio gurus around here the guy is the real deal, an actual engineer, that worked hard and was smart enough and passionate enough about audio to work on his own and make it a good business.
Knowing a few things about Switzerland, and a few things about machining and the cost of parts I have no doubt believing how much the prototype cost. Take it or leave it. One thing I know is that HD must have been damn certain is circuit was good before embarking in the chassis costruction.
In any case, the price doesn't seem all that much higher than any other top of the line product out there so I really don't get it.
HI Grataku,
Just to be very clear on my position, I admire and commend HD for his NHB108. I recognise the approach he has made, and the privations he went through to produce what I suspect is one of the world's best amplifiers.
My aim in contacting him was to give him the opportunity to answer some of the criticisms in this forum. I believe his answers demonstrate passion and commitment, and while the product is expensive, I suspect it's more than reasonable considering the quality of the sonics and the excellence of the construction.
Cheers,
Hugh
Just to be very clear on my position, I admire and commend HD for his NHB108. I recognise the approach he has made, and the privations he went through to produce what I suspect is one of the world's best amplifiers.
My aim in contacting him was to give him the opportunity to answer some of the criticisms in this forum. I believe his answers demonstrate passion and commitment, and while the product is expensive, I suspect it's more than reasonable considering the quality of the sonics and the excellence of the construction.
Cheers,
Hugh
Hehe, I have not heard the NHB-108 so I cannot comment on it. I do, however, compliment and congratulate Mr. Deletraz for taking DIY as far as he did.
What I always find amusing is Stereophile's component reviews (I won't go further into this, it's off-topic). Ironically, it is also the main reason I keep my subscription.
Back to the amp, can one pair of output devices deliver 200W @ 4 ohms? Mr. Deletraz did say he does not use exotic devices nor even match the transistors.
What I always find amusing is Stereophile's component reviews (I won't go further into this, it's off-topic). Ironically, it is also the main reason I keep my subscription.
Back to the amp, can one pair of output devices deliver 200W @ 4 ohms? Mr. Deletraz did say he does not use exotic devices nor even match the transistors.
Arius said:
According to the review in HiFi+ magazine, the amp's actual 4 ohm rating is 160W, or 9A peak. This is certainly possible with a single output pair, assuming the devices have adequate SOA protection.
One way they are protected in this circuit is that the base current available to drive the output stage is limited by the two constant current sources that load the final drive stage. Together with the declining beta of the output transistors with increased output current, this limits the current the output stage can pass even with the output terminals shorted.
While not shown on the schematic, it seems likely that these CCSs are adjustable to allow the builder to independently set the idle current in each half of the output stage. This would avoid the need for matched output devices and provide a means off nulling output DC offset voltage. I also think that the CCSs would need to be temperature compensated to cancel the tendency of the output stage idle current to rise as the heat sink warms up.
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