Hi
apart from some rather upsetting news I have basicaly being doing what Dave said.
I've had rather more time than normal to listen to the CC's and must admit it is an enjoyable experience. I enjoy an ecclatic mix of music from classical to mad house, and have found that the CC's present all of it in a fun and enjoyable fashion. The BLH I found could only realy handle certain dance music, it lost the urgency possibly due to the latency of the bass throuh the horn, where as the CC's have a sense of speed and rythm that make it sound like Dance music!
That is to say it is not all fun and games, a bad CD sounds bad, realy bad, some certain greatest hits live CD's seem to be the worst culprits.
What is more striking is certain songs and CD's that I thought mediocre have shone, its allmost like being slapped acousticly. A big suprise was David Bowies "Rock and roll suicide", and a few others wich I cant remember (wrote a list and left it at home) Ah Enigma MCMXL was another.
Now I am more acustemed to the sound I belive the combination of the clarity that the EnABL provides combined with the BVR and Rons curve combine to provide a fun and enjoyable sound that seems at home with any genere of music, and most importantly its fun. I was watching my daughter (the 8 year old, just starting to learn the guitar) picking out the bass line to a track and air bass playing as she picked the notes out.
The other big thing in thier favour is my beloved has not once moaned about them not being finished.
On the finishing side, thanks to John and Chris for the tip, rubbed down a bit of the baffle with 000 wire wool and wax, the resulting satin finish looks a thousand time better and more classy, no horrible distorted reflections, just the beauty of the grain.
Going to EnABL the baffle shortly, will report back on that.
Again I must appologise for the not very coherent revue of the sound, I start of being a revuer and end up being a listener.
😀 😀
apart from some rather upsetting news I have basicaly being doing what Dave said.
I've had rather more time than normal to listen to the CC's and must admit it is an enjoyable experience. I enjoy an ecclatic mix of music from classical to mad house, and have found that the CC's present all of it in a fun and enjoyable fashion. The BLH I found could only realy handle certain dance music, it lost the urgency possibly due to the latency of the bass throuh the horn, where as the CC's have a sense of speed and rythm that make it sound like Dance music!
That is to say it is not all fun and games, a bad CD sounds bad, realy bad, some certain greatest hits live CD's seem to be the worst culprits.
What is more striking is certain songs and CD's that I thought mediocre have shone, its allmost like being slapped acousticly. A big suprise was David Bowies "Rock and roll suicide", and a few others wich I cant remember (wrote a list and left it at home) Ah Enigma MCMXL was another.
Now I am more acustemed to the sound I belive the combination of the clarity that the EnABL provides combined with the BVR and Rons curve combine to provide a fun and enjoyable sound that seems at home with any genere of music, and most importantly its fun. I was watching my daughter (the 8 year old, just starting to learn the guitar) picking out the bass line to a track and air bass playing as she picked the notes out.
The other big thing in thier favour is my beloved has not once moaned about them not being finished.
On the finishing side, thanks to John and Chris for the tip, rubbed down a bit of the baffle with 000 wire wool and wax, the resulting satin finish looks a thousand time better and more classy, no horrible distorted reflections, just the beauty of the grain.
Going to EnABL the baffle shortly, will report back on that.
Again I must appologise for the not very coherent revue of the sound, I start of being a revuer and end up being a listener.
😀 😀
I want to hear Scotts review of the results. I realize Scott is very loaded with assingments (like me) but i still want to hear his feedback before i devote more time to this application.
Physics and math can only bring you so far, sometimes it requires the human element to bring something to perfection. I live in logic and physics and many times i miss the human element.
ron
(life is more than numbers)
Physics and math can only bring you so far, sometimes it requires the human element to bring something to perfection. I live in logic and physics and many times i miss the human element.
ron
(life is more than numbers)
Marce said: "If anyone has a suggestion for a CD or track to listen to"
Artist: George
Album: Polyserena
Track: 3 and 11
Whole album is well worth looking for, two outstanding vocalists, clean production, meticulous yet unusual arrangement.
Artist: George
Album: Polyserena
Track: 3 and 11
Whole album is well worth looking for, two outstanding vocalists, clean production, meticulous yet unusual arrangement.
Hi
Ron I agree with you I would like others to pass comment on the design. Unfortenatly with my current transport I cant move them anywhere, but hopefuly Scott my get some time and come have a listen as I belive he will be more clinical in his assesment. I will say compared to all my other speakers, these are the most rewarding overall musically previous include TDL Monitor 1M, KEF 104/2, and of course the 166@S in Fostex BLH.
Hi Mike, I'll have a look for that CD, it sounds like one our lass would like as she collects the female vocal CD's. Sorry I havn't replied to your PM, but unfortenatley I am not at work at the moment (redundancy negotiations
and with current UK laws its now a long drawn out PITA as I'm in limbo land at the moment).
As its rather hard to reach me by e-mail at the moment anyone who wants to come have a listen I can be reached on
(+44) 01723 350604
probably one of the kids will answer so just ask to speak to there dad.
Ron I agree with you I would like others to pass comment on the design. Unfortenatly with my current transport I cant move them anywhere, but hopefuly Scott my get some time and come have a listen as I belive he will be more clinical in his assesment. I will say compared to all my other speakers, these are the most rewarding overall musically previous include TDL Monitor 1M, KEF 104/2, and of course the 166@S in Fostex BLH.
Hi Mike, I'll have a look for that CD, it sounds like one our lass would like as she collects the female vocal CD's. Sorry I havn't replied to your PM, but unfortenatley I am not at work at the moment (redundancy negotiations
and with current UK laws its now a long drawn out PITA as I'm in limbo land at the moment).As its rather hard to reach me by e-mail at the moment anyone who wants to come have a listen I can be reached on
(+44) 01723 350604
probably one of the kids will answer so just ask to speak to there dad.
My 207's are rather dull in the upper mids. You've made me all undecided again. I was thinking active bi amped 208 sigma with raal ribbons in some Dallas II, But you are obviously enjoying your EnABLed drivers in Changs so much that perhaps these 207s are worth messing with further. Will be watching closely for when Scott gets time to have a listen. Too bad this cabinet is not quite right for the 208 without huge resistance added.
OzMikeH said:
indeed.
(anyone wants to come round here, i have stock FE127 in Fonken vrs FE127eN in Fonken to demonstrate the kinds of differences EnABL makes)
dave
Scottmoose said:
I don't have to guess... i have a very good idea. You did promise not to do yours until after you'll had the 208/tweeter vrs Curvy Chang w FE207eN, Sachiko FE206eN shootout ... when your bird flu subsides you should make a date with Marc to get a 1st listen.
dave
No worries on that score. Dan's not shipping them over here until after Christmas, to avoid the flood of seasonal parcels & the liklihood of some monkey damaging them in shipping. They'll stay unmodified initially to get used to the sound before any alterations will be made. I'm hoping I'll get chance to hear Marc's speakers at some point in the very near future -maybe over the next week or so if convenient, and once the plague has left. I'm off to take steam in a minute. If I do it quickly, I may yet live. 😱
I know its impratical but there should be an A/B blind test between the standard drivers and the enable modified.
Scott, i didnt get any attachments in your email. Does anybody have a link or explaniation of the physics of the Enable modifications?
1: Is the object to lessen cone breakup?
2: Is it a phase altering process?
3: Does adding mass to the cone change Qms (obvious)
4: Does it affect the wave launch in a specific way?
5: What is the affected frequency spectrum?
6: Is it a collimation effect( i cant see how)?
I am sorry, but after so many years of Voodo i am very cautious .
If someone shows me solid math and physics behind a process then i am more likely to believe in the assumption, patent or not.
ron
(given enough lawyers you can patent a rock)
Scott, i didnt get any attachments in your email. Does anybody have a link or explaniation of the physics of the Enable modifications?
1: Is the object to lessen cone breakup?
2: Is it a phase altering process?
3: Does adding mass to the cone change Qms (obvious)
4: Does it affect the wave launch in a specific way?
5: What is the affected frequency spectrum?
6: Is it a collimation effect( i cant see how)?
I am sorry, but after so many years of Voodo i am very cautious .
If someone shows me solid math and physics behind a process then i am more likely to believe in the assumption, patent or not.
ron
(given enough lawyers you can patent a rock)
Ron,
Chris is picking up the FE166s that will become your FE166eN tonight (and it takes about 10 days to do the whole process) -- black with grey spots (or would you like spots that stand out -- yellow? red? white? blue? sorry i don't have pink 🙂 ... from watching other people's 1st EnABL experience (as long as they don't have a cold ie me), it takes about 30 sec before your body/reptilian brain knows... a little longer maybe for your cognitive brain to catch up.... i'm really hoping once you hear it, you will be able to help solidify the theory.
The answer to your question is:
7/ none of the above (sort of)
As best i can theorize based on what it could be doing and what i am hearing, is that EnABL reduces/removes the "hall of mirrors" we have lived with and gotten used to.
So what is the hall of mirrors? It is the collection of surface waves and their reflections (reflections from the impedance change at surround and voice coil/dustcap) that "sit on the cone". This time smeared haze is largely removed because the surface wave is ejected before it has a chance to reflect. The effect is all WAY down. I'd estimate 30-50 dB down.
Probably the most studied analog would be break waters.
dave
Chris is picking up the FE166s that will become your FE166eN tonight (and it takes about 10 days to do the whole process) -- black with grey spots (or would you like spots that stand out -- yellow? red? white? blue? sorry i don't have pink 🙂 ... from watching other people's 1st EnABL experience (as long as they don't have a cold ie me), it takes about 30 sec before your body/reptilian brain knows... a little longer maybe for your cognitive brain to catch up.... i'm really hoping once you hear it, you will be able to help solidify the theory.
The answer to your question is:
7/ none of the above (sort of)
As best i can theorize based on what it could be doing and what i am hearing, is that EnABL reduces/removes the "hall of mirrors" we have lived with and gotten used to.
So what is the hall of mirrors? It is the collection of surface waves and their reflections (reflections from the impedance change at surround and voice coil/dustcap) that "sit on the cone". This time smeared haze is largely removed because the surface wave is ejected before it has a chance to reflect. The effect is all WAY down. I'd estimate 30-50 dB down.
Probably the most studied analog would be break waters.
dave
sorry i don't have pink
Again sorry i am Hetro. No need for pink. Color means very little to me. The only reason behind the fiberglass mods is purly acoustical physics. Black was the only color we could agree on. She wanted to paint the things some awful shade of green to match the curtins (which she changes about every 6 months?????,go figure).
Now all i have to do is design in a fish tank(into the horns) and a perch for Hubert (the parrot) and i am set. Wait! the tank could mass load the CC. Does anybody have any studies on the effect of high frequency vibrations on fish?
ron
(see what happens when ya hook up with a former hippie)
Again sorry i am Hetro. No need for pink. Color means very little to me. The only reason behind the fiberglass mods is purly acoustical physics. Black was the only color we could agree on. She wanted to paint the things some awful shade of green to match the curtins (which she changes about every 6 months?????,go figure).
Now all i have to do is design in a fish tank(into the horns) and a perch for Hubert (the parrot) and i am set. Wait! the tank could mass load the CC. Does anybody have any studies on the effect of high frequency vibrations on fish?
ron
(see what happens when ya hook up with a former hippie)
It is the collection of surface waves and their reflections (reflections from the impedance change at surround and voice coil/dustcap) that "sit on the cone
I dont think "surface waves" is the correct term. Lets call it an energy that travels over the surface. A true surface wave cannot be introduced into a medium with the frequencies involved or the density/elasticity of a cone material.
A true surface wave evolves from an extrem incident angle coming from a low velocity medium into a higher velocity medium.
Its basically Snells law of angular relationships vrs velocity.
ron
I dont think "surface waves" is the correct term. Lets call it an energy that travels over the surface. A true surface wave cannot be introduced into a medium with the frequencies involved or the density/elasticity of a cone material.
A true surface wave evolves from an extrem incident angle coming from a low velocity medium into a higher velocity medium.
Its basically Snells law of angular relationships vrs velocity.
ron
ronc said:
fine, fine, fine... it is why i want to get a pair into your hands (and your head) so you can come up with a sensible explaination 🙂
dave
ronc said:
Ask her if she has a preference... i can do them blue to match the fish tank... but she doesn't get to change them every six months 🙂
Otherwise i'll just do them so they can attempt a good dissappearing act into the black FG.
dave
fine, fine, fine... it is why i want to get a pair into your hands (and your head) so you can come up with a sensible explaination
Well , i am old, hearin aint what it use to be. About 2 years ago i hooked up my calibrated signal generator to my old Dallas horns with the 208 and a ribbon tweet. It surprised me as i couldnt hear above 12.5 Khz.
Its tough getting old, things like your ear drums get hard (other things dont) and quit flexing.
Combine that with Coreg/Diovan/Nitro just to stay alive and sometimes you wonder WHY?
It all comes down to finding an answer to a quesrtion. I dont quit until i find the solution.
ron
Well , i am old, hearin aint what it use to be. About 2 years ago i hooked up my calibrated signal generator to my old Dallas horns with the 208 and a ribbon tweet. It surprised me as i couldnt hear above 12.5 Khz.
Its tough getting old, things like your ear drums get hard (other things dont) and quit flexing.
Combine that with Coreg/Diovan/Nitro just to stay alive and sometimes you wonder WHY?
It all comes down to finding an answer to a quesrtion. I dont quit until i find the solution.
ron
ronc
1. Yes, though the practice, fully applied eliminates it to all real intents. Obviously it cannot be eliminated, however to the correlated hearing of most folks, it is as good as gone.
2. Yes, at least with the quantitative data we have to date. Qualitatively, high frequencies sound much louder, but measure no change, and struck chimes have the "correct" time train, transients Vs sine wave, components.
3. The mass is added primarily within the confines of the boundary layer laminar flow zone. My measuring equipment shows , perhaps, a slight change in QMS, perhaps not. Seems to depend greatly upon the rest mass of the mechanism.
4. Seems to enforce coherent time emission patterns. With respect to a musical sound field, the various discreet source signatures remain politely uncovered by others that are similar in frequency, in time, and that are coincidental to one another in the sound field.
5. None that we can find, even when bringing high frequency phase to nominal, with respect to 1 kHz (when using the standard beginning and ending pattern ring sets), or actually forcing it forward of that nominal point as you add more ring sets. Extreme care was taken to not alter the physical relationship between driver and microphone during this test. Perhaps indicating that the physical transform of energy from transverse wave to compression wave is happening farther off of the laminar surface of the boundary layer.
6. Perhaps something analogous. There does not appear to be any loss of information, but certainly the event seems to follow what a collimation structure might do, if a third dimension was added, as the resultant signal shows serious signs of being a phase coherent emission, as a compression wave.
7. This is probably voodoo, but it is not the most serious form of it that I have trolled through these waters. Wait till someone offers you an electron pool, that will definitely set your BS meter on full tilt boogie. Ask for one for each EnABL'd driver you sample, just as an added source of disquieting foolishness.
The CSD plots and other test data, provided by various folks, are buried within the EnABL thread. If you want to poke at it, we can provide what we have and where. In addition to the above, there appears to be no effect upon either THD or it's constituent component amounts.
Can you help? It would be deeply appreciated. Hearing to 12.5 K will be more than adequate!
Bud
1. Yes, though the practice, fully applied eliminates it to all real intents. Obviously it cannot be eliminated, however to the correlated hearing of most folks, it is as good as gone.
2. Yes, at least with the quantitative data we have to date. Qualitatively, high frequencies sound much louder, but measure no change, and struck chimes have the "correct" time train, transients Vs sine wave, components.
3. The mass is added primarily within the confines of the boundary layer laminar flow zone. My measuring equipment shows , perhaps, a slight change in QMS, perhaps not. Seems to depend greatly upon the rest mass of the mechanism.
4. Seems to enforce coherent time emission patterns. With respect to a musical sound field, the various discreet source signatures remain politely uncovered by others that are similar in frequency, in time, and that are coincidental to one another in the sound field.
5. None that we can find, even when bringing high frequency phase to nominal, with respect to 1 kHz (when using the standard beginning and ending pattern ring sets), or actually forcing it forward of that nominal point as you add more ring sets. Extreme care was taken to not alter the physical relationship between driver and microphone during this test. Perhaps indicating that the physical transform of energy from transverse wave to compression wave is happening farther off of the laminar surface of the boundary layer.
6. Perhaps something analogous. There does not appear to be any loss of information, but certainly the event seems to follow what a collimation structure might do, if a third dimension was added, as the resultant signal shows serious signs of being a phase coherent emission, as a compression wave.
7. This is probably voodoo, but it is not the most serious form of it that I have trolled through these waters. Wait till someone offers you an electron pool, that will definitely set your BS meter on full tilt boogie. Ask for one for each EnABL'd driver you sample, just as an added source of disquieting foolishness.
The CSD plots and other test data, provided by various folks, are buried within the EnABL thread. If you want to poke at it, we can provide what we have and where. In addition to the above, there appears to be no effect upon either THD or it's constituent component amounts.
Can you help? It would be deeply appreciated. Hearing to 12.5 K will be more than adequate!
Bud
Can you help? It would be deeply appreciated. Hearing to 12.5 K will be more than adequate!
Bud
Yes, all i ask is a fundimental explanation as to the operational principals. I am still confused.
ron
(sorry, i am a Texan (we go to family renunions ta look fer a date))
Bud
Yes, all i ask is a fundimental explanation as to the operational principals. I am still confused.
ron
(sorry, i am a Texan (we go to family renunions ta look fer a date))
ronc said:
Rings of raised bumps arrayed in a regular radial pattern, empirically developed over 20-some years (i'm just doing the math -- Bud says he has been playing with it for 34 years and the patent is ~10 years old).
dave
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