True!
Not trying to ruffle people's tail feathers but let me say this: Yes, I understand the science and math thus the reason for mentioning Bell Labs. I understand the measurements; I understand the theory; I understand pretty much every aspect of what this is all about. So, musicians have a very keen sense of what sounds "exactly" right. Most people that have never studied music or played an instrument usually do NOT have that extra, magic bit of awareness and "sensitivity". The thing is; I like true full-range the best; the best crossover is no crossover. Second to that; I like first order crossovers. The list goes on.
Let's all take a deep breath and back up a few steps. Do yourselves all a favor and listen to live music within a good listening environment. NOT overly loud, NOT amplified; acoustic instruments in a proper setting. Jazz, classical, folk, blues, country; whatever you like. Now, try to listen critically for every note from every instrument. Pretend you are a conductor of a full orchestra performing a symphony. THAT is what I am talking about...perfection? No, but the next best thing.
Cheers and peace!
What would you consider "High quality crossover components"?
I've tried lots from very cheap to very expensive and to my ears, price and sound quality don't go hand in hand.
It's funny but the Jantzen Z Superior that were suggested at the beginning of the thread sound very similar to the Dynaudios that I owned in the past - Detailed and airy but with a dull or flat midrange that doesn't project out of the speakers.
Well, let's all be honest here. EVERYONE has personal preferences and tastes. I prefer the Jantzen Superior Z capacitors as I consider them to be the most neutral and accurate capacitor in that given price range. I prefer the "Zisters" resistors available from Meniscus Audio for the same reasons. I prefer the Hepa-Litz inductors from Solen also for the same reasons. Yes, I keep bringing up musicians; there is a valid reason for that. We tend to be ultra critical and very keen at listening to the most minute details many others may miss entirely. Regardless; if you have accurate drivers to begin with, you can experiment with different components and get varying results. Sometimes, there are no detectable differences, sometimes, the differences are subtle and sometimes the differences are startling!
When I do my experiments; I have an A-B switch or clip leads and can swap between components almost instantly while listening critically to my most familiar recordings. Yes; there are SIGNIFICANT and DRAMATIC improvements "sometimes". Other times; you can barely tell the difference. This is EXACTLY why I ALWAYS experiment; price of a component may not always be a good indicator.
Just trying to make my point. Many people stubbornly refuse to listen if you just have a few words to say then move on. Experience is the greatest teacher. I have done many posts here and elsewhere when people come back and ask me how do I know this or that; what makes me say this or that, etc.
I didn't start out posting within this thread about my background. I felt the need to give more and more background info as the thread became more and more detailed and complicated. It is NOT an ego thing at all; but, I feel the need sometimes to bring this up to add validity to my words.
I find this thread most interesting, especially because we got some excellent info on crossover filter schematic (a couple of educated guesses and we know all the parts values) and the way it is built from inside. Would not make much sense to overargue the opinions on importance of the parts make and model. I think our moderators would appreciate it.
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So let's review a little. I think we can all agree that there a great many variables which affect the sound "quality" of any speaker system. Upgrading a crossover with better components "can" and "do" make significant improvements...BUT...sometimes there is very little or no difference or improvement at all. I never tried to say that it is the most significant improvement one could make. It is one trick in a toolbox full of tricks.
I have shared many ideas and stories with many hobbyists and professionals over a period of many decades. There is rarely ever 100% agreement, especially when it comes to personal tastes and preferences. Again; think of it as a piece of artwork. How many ideas and opinions do you get when discussing a piece of art?
On that High-Resolution-Drivers-Deserve-High-Quality-Crossover-Components statement: I didn't manage to spot any components of inferior quality on the depicted xover board. Yes, there are those 6µ8 and 15µ bipolar 'lytics. But they're in series with resistors of considerable values. Hence their comparable (compared to foil caps) high ESR's are swamped completely by those resistors. All the other components appear to be of appropriate quality.
OTOH: Dynaudio is a well respected loudspeaker manufacturer. Surely we can assume that their employees, engineers and designers know very well what they're doing. I'd call it arrogant if anyone who wasn't involved in the design of this specific product claims he can improve it's properties just by rolling xover components.
To the OP: If you don't like the sonic performance, or sound, of your - supposedly well engineered - speaker pair, it most possibly might not be the right one for you. Go and get another one.
Best regards!
OTOH: Dynaudio is a well respected loudspeaker manufacturer. Surely we can assume that their employees, engineers and designers know very well what they're doing. I'd call it arrogant if anyone who wasn't involved in the design of this specific product claims he can improve it's properties just by rolling xover components.
To the OP: If you don't like the sonic performance, or sound, of your - supposedly well engineered - speaker pair, it most possibly might not be the right one for you. Go and get another one.
Best regards!
Good post!
If they were a very old pair of speakers then maybe some modern replacements caps would give an improvement - But even then I know people who've tried upgrading caps in vintage Tannoys and still prefered the old ones.
I agree!
But I tried "upgrading/improving" speakers too and I still do that, but just because I want to leave my personal touch on that electronic device . It is not worth messing with the values , just swap the oem plastic/polypropylene caps with the same value but higher quality capacitors.
I'm not sure whether you are talking about time signal, or frequency response or something else?
In what way is this different to their normal operation?
How do you compare cone breakup to the effects of a crossover?
Cone break up can be REALLY nasty! Sometimes it is very hard to tame. I generally avoid drivers with large peaks and/or valleys in their response curves; even above my intended crossover point. In my opinion, this is one of the worse distortions there can be because you can get HF ringing, extreme harshness that presents itself even in the pass-band.
As far as signal integrity (spectral purity); if you were to look at the waveform and/or the spectrum, you will see the original signal has been changed. This is true in both the time domain and frequency domain. Obviously, I'm talking again about signals in the intended pass-band that we wish to preserve (not the roll-off effects themselves).
Let's, for example look at the spectrum of a square-wave. What happens is that some harmonics might have a higher amplitude while others may have a lower amplitude when passed through a non-ideal circuit. What I'm trying to say here is that a complex musical signal will be altered in some way that is not desired; ie the spectrum or waveform is no longer an exact replica of the original signal. (again, ignoring the DESIRED [intended] effects of the crossover).
The higher quality crossover components do a much better job of preserving the original signal. Price is not necessarily a good indicator of performance; some inexpensive components do, in fact, out perform more expensive components...thus MY reasonings for so much experimenting...
You seem to be saying that non ideal elements can alter the impedance character versus frequency. Makes sense. Can you show an example of this occurring in the audio band?
I've been looking online to try to find examples of what I'm trying to say here. I have a bare-bones laptop; no fancy CAD, SPICE, etc.
I'l try to describe it better. Using the square-wave spectrum; we see the relative amplitudes of the fundamental and all harmonics.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Spectrum_square_oscillation.jpg
see if you can open this jpg; it is a spectrum of a square-wave.
Lets say the 3rd harmonic get's a higher than expected amplitude and the 5th harmonic get's a lower than expected amplitude after passing through a non-ideal circuit. This would mean that something within the passive device behaves differently at these different frequencies. There could be any number of things that might cause this; I am not an expert at capacitor manufacturing. Any imperfections in the dielectric or "winding" might act as a frequency sensitive impedance mis-match relative to the overall intended specification at these exact frequencies only (like an un-intentionally tuned or resonant circuit). This could cause an artificial peak at one narrow band of frequencies while also possibly causing an un-intended dip at another narrow band of frequencies.
Of course, we are again talking within the intended pass-band and not the desired effects of the filter roll-off.
Again, I'm not an expert at capacitor manufacturing. Since I'm retired and we are currently having a thunderstorm; this gives me a homework assignment for the day. Research capacitor imperfections, etc.
Thanks, I needed an indoors project for the day; let's see if I can get you a much better answer!
Capacitance and Capacitors | Analog Devices
see if this opens; there is a section explaining non-ideal capacitors
As you are an engineer and many of the forum participants are as well or are well versed in engineering terms, maybe it would be helpful if you switched to engineering terminology. I didn't read the AD link but the issues of capacitors don't come from winding imperfections (all, ALL, film capacitors of standard industrial quality are wound as perfect as it gets) and every dialectric has it's own issues. The terms to look up would be "dialectric absorption" and "dissipation factor". None of that introduces "impedance mismatches" nor is there a chance this could happen.
OK guys and gals let's please all back off a minute and take a deep breath! Any in-accuracy in the preservation of the original signal can be considered distortion. I really do not care whatsoever about the chemical or physical properties of an in-perfect electronic component passive or active! Many people just get totally bent out of shape for the most minute details! I am RETIRED, I really do NOT CARE if you believe or not; it will not affect me in anyway whatsoever! Please put your pettish EGOS aside and accept the fact that there will never, EVER be a 100% agreement on what is right and what is wrong!
Do me a favor EVERYONE, go listen to live music and try to hear each and every last note from each and every last instrument!
I am retired; I was a musician over 50 years ago and have been doing speakers almost as long. If you have a problem with that; it is time to re-think the reality of the entire recorded musical industry!
Just think about what is the MOST important!!! end of story!!!
Does the music sound clearer to you at lower volumes (sit closer to equalise and toe the speakers in)? The reason I ask is whether the drivers are simply losing their composure when driven harder.
What amplification are you using? Especially peak RMS power capability? Just checking we're not dealing with clipping.
Which particular recordings seem muddy or complex? I ask since I might tell you my experience with those on my KEF 2 ways (muddy) vs. my metal 3 ways (clean and distinct) If I can use those subjective terms.
Let's get VERY specific for a few moments. Can you tell a difference between various designed bows for a cello or an acoustic bass? Can you tell the difference between different types of reeds on a Baritone or Tenor Saxophone? Can you tell the difference between different shaped mouth pieces of a French Horn? Well, I CAN and DO...WHY?...the whole basis for accurate reproduction can be extremely complex...obviously! If YOU cannot tell the different sounds made by a specific bow, or reed or mouthpiece than this discussion is ended!
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