Indeed, that looks good too. It has higher Mms than M5N12: 11.7g vs 8.2g, lower Bl (10.5 vs 11.3), lower Re (6 vs 7.2 ohm), same [very low!] Le of 0.15mH. So higher motor strength (18.4 vs 17.7) which is good, and 40% higher motor strength/Mms (3.07 vs 2.16) which is not as good.
The relatively ragged impedance curve makes me wonder a bit, particularly the blip arount 1700Hz or so. Doesn't make it bad by any means, but relative to the M5N12 is not as nice.
A VERY important factor in my mind is also that Pooh has a lot of experience with midrange horns, has tried many that have been discussed here, and highly endorses the M5N12.
Finally, the higher sensitivity and impedance of the M5N12 make it a nicer candidate for use with flea-power SETs.
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Thinking through this, I thought it would be good to write down where I'm at at this stage:
Compression drivers are out of my list, for this decision. They are tempting for sure, particularly the M200, but too far away from what I know and I can see myself making an expensive mistake.
5-6.5" cones: I guess the Faital Pro M5N12-80 looks best overall, while the Beyma 605Nd looks even better on paper to my unexperienced eyes. Both are available here. The need for a rear enclosure and/or phase plug is strongly recommended by one very experienced user and noted as not really making such a big difference by another very experienced user who has tried one of these vs a CMCD-81.
JBL CMCD-61 seems the safest bet, but alas...I'm not finding a way to source it in the mid term here.
8" drivers: I was considering these as direct radiators, and the B&C 8PE21 was in that short list. It was now recommended for horn use. Sourcing the P.Audio SN8 here seems a challenge. I also have the impression 8-inchers would do best if I wanted them to reach 350Hz, but would have a harder time above 1500Hz, while I intend to xo somewhere 2-2.5kHz. Even the CMCD-81, with the optimized rear chamber and phase plug is recommended up to 2kHz. Maybe setting my expectations to equal what JBL achieved would be too ambitious...or even foolish on my part.
It's probably time to focus more on the horn/waveguide, like Scott and wheigher suggested, and decide with a driver+horn in mind. I've started trying Hornresp, but I haven't gotten far at all...another source of embarrassment
Oh, well...I'll post my ignorance shortly.Cheers!
Hi Scholl,
Have you perhaps measured the characteristics of the JBL 2250? In JBL's list of driver T/S parameters Fs is listed as 188Hz. What is not clear is whether this is with or without the rear chamber.
The Jubilees seem too large to work well in my living room. Let alone have my wife let them stay
I sit 10 feet away from the front baffle of the speakers. 24" deep (Jubilees) might be acceptable to her, but soundwise I have a hard time understanding how such a tall horn could integrate well with the TPL-150H above it in 10 feet. I'm happy to be pointed out wrong.
Assuming the TPL is stacked above the midrange horn, my rough size constarints for the horn would be about 20" wide, 24" deep, and 16" tall. From an aesthetic point of view.
I've been assuming rectangular mouth shapes to limit height, also assuming the TPL is stacked on axis above the midrange horn. But I've seen Avantgarde Trio uses round horns and places the tweeter horn to the side of the vertical axis between midrange and bass. Different frequency ranges and drivers, though. But...would a round midrange horn above the bass direct radiators and the TPL off axis be a good idea for me?
Yes, I think it's a what it's designed to do. but - The one thing about these CMCD drivers that can be good or bad is the built in back chamber. In that size horn I think 400-500 Hz is more likely where you will need to bring it in
Thanks for that mate. Do you see any issues with shortening the horn to suit the 4 inch throat?
Did you just cut yours down? Did you do any modeling, or plug it into Hornresp? Or just listen?
The other option that sounds good for what I want is the Community m200, are these still in production? I haven't been able to find any.
Thanks mate.
The Sierra Brooks horns I have (3 pair, big, bigger and little) were made where they screw together (brass screws sound best lol) in segments so you can lengthen and shorten in pre determined throat sizes. It's pretty slick.
I didn't design them and they were built by a fellow horny Victor Sierra. I have them modeled in horn response and it's pretty accurate on the low end to try drivers out without actually having them but it's better to have the set paired up to see if you like the sound. The Community drivers can be bought through Compass sound in Amerika for around $300 each
I don't think it should be any problem to get the 165H driver. But the phase plug is near possible to get as it's discontinued. Sveinung and I is looking for a solution and 3D printing the phase plugs may be the choise. Before that we will need drawings...
Thank you! It's encouraging to know you also see it as an interesting candidate. Too bad there is almost no experience with it mentioned in this forum (or others, for that matter).
I have a couple of Beyma cone drivers here that work well in a horn an 8" and a 12.. mainly for upper bass and low midrange duty - That 6" should be close to the B&C 6pev13
Interesting. 605Nd should be close to the 6pev13, and M5N12 was superior to the 6pev13 in your setup. Mmmm. So M5N12 should be superior to 605Nd...
6 inch, horn ready
What the world needs is a 6 inch driver, with "bullet" phase plug,
a slightly lighter cone, and all the rest of the features of this one:
(especially the ALUMINUM DEMODULATION RING FOR A FLATTER RESPONSE & LOWER DISTORTION)
Faital Pro 6PR122 6.5" Speakers - Faital Pro 6PR122 midrange speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 6PR122 240 watt 6.5" has an efficiency of 97dB SPL woofer for all high quality midrange applications. Faital Pro 6PR122
What the world needs is a 6 inch driver, with "bullet" phase plug,
a slightly lighter cone, and all the rest of the features of this one:
(especially the ALUMINUM DEMODULATION RING FOR A FLATTER RESPONSE & LOWER DISTORTION)
Faital Pro 6PR122 6.5" Speakers - Faital Pro 6PR122 midrange speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 6PR122 240 watt 6.5" has an efficiency of 97dB SPL woofer for all high quality midrange applications. Faital Pro 6PR122
or this one
But I guess you would have to install your own phase plug. darn it !!
0025 6ND410 - 6ND410 : Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
But I guess you would have to install your own phase plug. darn it !!
0025 6ND410 - 6ND410 : Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
If you really believe that the 6ND410 can act as a midrange then try it. The cone is light for cone driver but very heavy for a compression driver.
Mr. Rewind,
If you don't think this mid range unit will respond to the mid range, please share as to why not (?)
I was pretty much sure we are discussing possible candidates for a cone driven mid range horn, and not so much how a compression driver compares....
BECAUSE, we would like to get much lower in response to where a compression driver is comfortable. For me that would be 250Hz,
for Mr. Lewinski he is thinking around 400Hz.
Thanks !!
Okay, thanks then I am up to speed. I agree, 250Hz is a bit low. I tried it and even if my compression driver can do it in a large enough horn, I don't like to push the limits in everyday use. It may sound amazing in one song but not so good in another.
My only objections is based on my own tastes, which is: don't use a big and heavy cone driver above 500-600Hz. The only reason for using a cone driver up to 2000-4000Hz is if you want the sound of a regular speaker without horns, which can be pleasing in some ways. I just listened the Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage tonight and it sounds more complete and balanced than my horns. The horns separates the sound stage somehow. I would never use it for detailed jazz and solos in classical music, but for Metallica and Crystal Castles it was really nice.
My only objections is based on my own tastes, which is: don't use a big and heavy cone driver above 500-600Hz. The only reason for using a cone driver up to 2000-4000Hz is if you want the sound of a regular speaker without horns, which can be pleasing in some ways. I just listened the Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage tonight and it sounds more complete and balanced than my horns. The horns separates the sound stage somehow. I would never use it for detailed jazz and solos in classical music, but for Metallica and Crystal Castles it was really nice.
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