My buddy, Eldam !!
In the grand scheme of all things speaker driver-related, a Qms of 4 is not considered "high" at all, but rather, right in the midst of low-average. It's right close to the optimum range for bass reflex. For my mid range application, I do NOT want a long horn. IMO a long horn for mid range raises the chances of horn colouration. I do indeed want a driver with a stiff suspension, because I want to use very little back chamber (almost none, but then again , not exactly an open baffle, either) I don't want to have to need an air restoring force to the driver, as I do not wish any reflections back through the driver cone at all. Thanks for chiming in. As usual, good to hear from you !!
What is the "midrange" band?
Of course if you want to cover the entire midrange in a horn it must be long - maybe people consider the midrange as something else? I see it as 150 to 1.2K or so. This requires a long horn with a large mouth. It can be possible to use short horn with big driver and large throat but those tend to perform more like a direct radiator and lose the horn super fast transient response, definition and dynamics. What is midrange to you? Short horn above 1.2K is OK but that is low treble.
My buddy, Eldam !!
In the grand scheme of all things speaker driver-related, a Qms of 4 is not considered "high" at all, but rather, right in the midst of low-average. It's right close to the optimum range for bass reflex. For my mid range application, I do NOT want a long horn. IMO a long horn for mid range raises the chances of horn colouration. I do indeed want a driver with a stiff suspension, because I want to use very little back chamber (almost none, but then again , not exactly an open baffle, either) I don't want to have to need an air restoring force to the driver, as I do not wish any reflections back through the driver cone at all. Thanks for chiming in. As usual, good to hear from you !!
Of course if you want to cover the entire midrange in a horn it must be long - maybe people consider the midrange as something else? I see it as 150 to 1.2K or so. This requires a long horn with a large mouth. It can be possible to use short horn with big driver and large throat but those tend to perform more like a direct radiator and lose the horn super fast transient response, definition and dynamics. What is midrange to you? Short horn above 1.2K is OK but that is low treble.
back burner
In my system, I am set for the mid range section to cover 250-to at least 3.5K.
This covers the female vocal range and well into the harmonics. Bass vocals do indeed plunge lower. Your definition of mid range is just as valid, maybe even more so, since it includes almost the entire male vocal range. Only a very tall drink of water type of bass vocalist can get lower.
In light of the seemingly impossible task of covering even my definition of mid range, with a single, manageable sized horn, I am placing the project on the back burner and have decided to finish my multiple-stack, pentagon- shaped, speaker system first.
In my system, I am set for the mid range section to cover 250-to at least 3.5K.
This covers the female vocal range and well into the harmonics. Bass vocals do indeed plunge lower. Your definition of mid range is just as valid, maybe even more so, since it includes almost the entire male vocal range. Only a very tall drink of water type of bass vocalist can get lower.
In light of the seemingly impossible task of covering even my definition of mid range, with a single, manageable sized horn, I am placing the project on the back burner and have decided to finish my multiple-stack, pentagon- shaped, speaker system first.
WIKI: Vocal range is the measure of the breadth of pitches that a human voice can phonate. The most common application of the term "vocal range" is within the context of singing, where it is used as one of the major defining characteristics for classifying singing voices into groups known as voice types.
The following are the general vocal ranges associated with each voice type using scientific pitch notation where middle C=C4. Some singers within these voice types may be able to sing somewhat higher or lower:
Soprano: C4 – C6 (262-1047Hz)
Mezzo-soprano: A3 – A5
Contralto: F3 – F5
Tenor: C3 – C5
Baritone: F2 – F4
Bass: E2 – E4 (82-330Hz)
In terms of frequency, human voices are roughly in the range of 80 Hz to 1100 Hz (that is, E2 to C6) for normal male and female voices together.
Fundamental Speech frequency
The voiced speech of a typical adult male will have a fundamental frequency from 85 to 180 Hz, and that of a typical adult female from 165 to 255 Hz.
The following are the general vocal ranges associated with each voice type using scientific pitch notation where middle C=C4. Some singers within these voice types may be able to sing somewhat higher or lower:
Soprano: C4 – C6 (262-1047Hz)
Mezzo-soprano: A3 – A5
Contralto: F3 – F5
Tenor: C3 – C5
Baritone: F2 – F4
Bass: E2 – E4 (82-330Hz)
In terms of frequency, human voices are roughly in the range of 80 Hz to 1100 Hz (that is, E2 to C6) for normal male and female voices together.
Fundamental Speech frequency
The voiced speech of a typical adult male will have a fundamental frequency from 85 to 180 Hz, and that of a typical adult female from 165 to 255 Hz.
No I haven't. But in free air without chamber it does a very nice 500-2500hz no big peaks.
I'm looking for a horn if anyone has suggestions. Otherwise I may venture into a conical project.
Attached is the same simulation, with plots for Tools>Directivity>0 degree off axis response. That looks good to me. What do you think?
Considering the "Warning S1<Sd". I guess S1 should be same or larger than Sd. Any best practice to consider?
I'm also masking back chamber reflections
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WHen I look at this it makes sense there is a lot of power spl below 250-300 Hz in classical event (percusions kick & snare for instance)
Finally my definition of mid-bass is 80-700/800 Hz a little lier an Altec VOTT A7 could do with a single driver ! But in fact a 50-250/300 Hz non XOed standalone driver makes sense as most of the Fundamentals from powerfull (highest spl) acoustical instruments are here! At least in theory ! Capacit dynamique d'un systme audio
For the pleasure : (low efficienty but nicely Full range for a 8" : http://www.audax.com/archives/HM210C0 - Catalogue 1994.pdf
For Lewinski, the B&C 98 dB PE21 seems a good one : 8" : good behavior at 2500 Hz XO for the TPLH, and why not in a MMT to win +3 dB and half the moves of the cones too match the speed of the AMT ? Then his two 10" Beyma he has already ? WWMMT ?
POOH, Scott : with the high aera covered by yours respective horn, no danger of cone break up even if low deplacement in the horn ?
We can also see from the link than a 60/80 Hz to 700-1000 Hz by a single fronted horned driver makes sense in a VOTT A5 ! But not enough spl if grand concert and the dynamic of a direct horn like yours !
When I see the link of classical instrument and the spl power they can radiate in the fundamental in a concert or grand concert : 28 TO 250 hZ seems to be the most difficult range to cover for both the spl and from a unique driver ! It's below the main distorsion sensivity; the behavior of the F&M curve is also changing a lot here when you raise the spl and there is also the room ! Bingo, here is the challenge ? 120 dB to 130 db is what a grand orchestral can target below 250 Hz ! (of course peaks !) !
Last night I dreamed of a vertical array of multiples 10" (Seas LROY despite the ringing in the highs, but distorsion,Xmax and Le are good) for the 30 Hz to 250 Hz, then a mid horn for range above ! Of course here, human voices are cutted.
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120 to 1K 107 db with a watt, no problem reproducing the fundamentals at live levels. Covers most instrument fundamentals and voice - I used to crossover higher on the low end but this sounds better.
A 2/1 compression ratio (Sd/S1) is fairly conservative. Higher compression ratios increase efficiency, but put more pressure on the cone which can lead to higher distortion and even cone buckling at high drive levels if taken too far. A lower compression ratio will give a bit wider dispersion, you can "see" the cone further off axis.
Nothing wrong with S1 smaller than Sd, but Vtc (volume of throat chamber) should be estimated for an accurate simulation. Hornresp assumes a flat piston, while speakers are generally cone shaped, the volume of the cone when S1 is smaller than Sd should be included as Vtc, plus any spacer depth required to eliminate the cone surround hitting the baffle.
Hornresp has a cone volume estimator, the Vtc would be at minimum the volume of the depth of the cone if S1 is smaller than Sd.
Art
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Given that the CMCD 61 is basically the Audax PR170M0, you couyld search for advice by a character called Magnetar who has used it open baffle and in a tractrix.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-280.html#post1370877
POOH knows this guy quite well I believe...
Cheers,
Mike
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-280.html#post1370877
POOH knows this guy quite well I believe...
Cheers,
Mike
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From what I remember; having read many of your posts over the years, is that you have tried many different configurations. Your current implementation of one section covering 120-1K @ 107 is pretty cool, I think.
This is obviously done with a devoted horn, but what driver will do this ?
I've settled on the B&C 8PE21. I did find a NOS pair of Fane studio 8M 8" to see if they're any better. They should be here in a couple of days. I will compare the two in my HLCM thread with measurements. The 8PE21 will be difficult to beat. I finished up my my horn array frames yesterday where they are adjustable so i can move the treble and upper treble horns around vertically. The 1K is the upper limit in these horns and the 8Pe21 and 800 Hz is where I'll probably end up at - maybe lower if I keep the low pass first order
Thank you!! That was very helpful.
Attached is an updated simulation with a 2:1 Sd:S1 (changed S1 to 47.2).
Using the volume estimator, but not having the driver with me to take measurements, I estimated dimensions and came up with a 200cm3 Vtc. So I want to strive for a Vtc as low as possible.
Estimating Atc brought me to a confusion about the definition of Sd. I believe Sd is the cone area plus dust cap area. Like if we cut the cone out of the driver, lay it flat on a table and measure that surface. So Sd has to be larger than Atc. But when I estimate Atc (as the size of the throat = size of the cone, perpendicular to the driver axis) I get larger figure for Atc than Sd...Could you please explain?
BTW, I also estimated Atc for another driver and also came up higher than Sd. Must be a misunderstanding on my part.
Increasing Vtc and Atc (larger than 0) worsened the simulated frequency response. Maybe I should compensate by increasing the Sd:S1 ratio to 3:1?
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The measurements of the little Faital posted earlier will be very close to what you'll get in the Edgar midrange horn - the Horn used in the measurements has 260 cycle tractrix flare with 4" throat. a smaller throat will be better - try 3" diameter
If this is what i get in these horns I'll probably stick with the B&C. They are the antithesis of rough. Thanks
Fane is still very clear for a PA speaker and great for your type of horn. I wonder if B&C is any better - maybe if it has a lighter cone. I think the Fane sounds powerful and sturdy, but obviously without the deep bass, and less crystalline midrange than many vintage 8" drivers with thin paper cone and with a voice coil that is smaller in diameter.
Speaking of vintage 8" drivers, any other drivers worth mentioning that is similar to PHY-HP, Supravox, and Saba? I am always on the hunt for more drivers.