Ben,
I'm sure JAG has experience he could boast about, but we don't know if that experience would have anything to do with the thread. He could boast about being the "most annoyingly repetitive DIY poster" and would get my endorsement.
As far as my being available for "pay for design advice", yes, in addition to live sound, recording and lighting, many have hired me for design consultation, every one of the many that have were very satisfied in the value received.
Having worked in a technical capacity yourself, you certainly understand that employers "get what they pay for", experience counts for something.
But on the inter-webs, experience is often just a "post count", and some of those just fly by like fence posts at 100 mph, hard to count, much less keep track of.
Cheers,
Art
If you look harder it's not hard to see.
Your ASSumption again reveals your unbounded ignorance ...
This thread is literally loaded with personal insults, it is amusing but I do take it personally. It's also amusing that the perception of what's going on is so one sided, I talk tech and he throws insults and I'm the bad guy.
I have included more technical info than anyone here. Weltersys has contributed almost nothing technical, it took 727 posts for him to recommend dual subs with mains above or beside the subs. In the meantime it's a steady stream of abuse and contradicting himself with a few glory days stories thrown in. This is supposed to be a place for the free exchange of ideas, not a personal job fair.
Hi Ben. I have linked you to projects and measurement I have done in the past. On the other hand you have never built a speaker of any type in your life, don't know how to use simulators, have repeatedly shown you don't understand the theory being discussed.
Nice to see you included me in your sig line again. I told you last time, all you have to do is stop spreading misinformation and I'll stop correcting you. The reason you seem to think I'm stalking you by responding to a large number of your posts is that no one else ever posts as much misinformation as you do. If there was such a person I would respond to their posts too.
My experience counts about as much as yours for the topics in this thread. I've built horns, measured them, set them up and listened to them.
This is about dual vs single subs and where to place the mains. That's a 3 - 4 speaker system placed outside. If you think you need a degree or years of experience as a stagehand to figure this out you overvalue your experience and undervalue common sense and theory to an alarming degree. OP can figure this out by doing a simple test, that's literally all the experience that's needed here.
Hé guys, this thread is not about who has the biggest 'horn', but about building one. I haven't seen the Entropy dude that started this thread for a while, which I can fully understand in terms of avoidance of pathological minimal social situations.
But I am really interested in what hopefully is going to be build by the OP, and I would like the OP to continue with his work in an environment of positive and knowledgeable support, so that he is encouraged to inform us about his progress in the future.
But I am really interested in what hopefully is going to be build by the OP, and I would like the OP to continue with his work in an environment of positive and knowledgeable support, so that he is encouraged to inform us about his progress in the future.
Hi vacuphile,
Post #745: "...I would like the OP to continue with his work in an environment of positive and knowledgeable support, so that he is encouraged to inform us about his progress..."
Second that.
Regards,
Post #745: "...I would like the OP to continue with his work in an environment of positive and knowledgeable support, so that he is encouraged to inform us about his progress..."
Second that.
Regards,
No doubt after 70+ pages of this
. This is why I'm not a fan of collaborative projects. I can't count how many big projects like this had the OP disappear and the project never realized. It's better to do some reading yourself, perhaps seek out advice from a few select people in private and get something done. It'll all be second guessed and criticized later anyway no matter what but by then it'll be built and being enjoyed so who cares.
My Dad is coming into town to visit his grandkids - thus I've been pretty busy this past week. I'm still here, and the project is still a go. I'm leaning towards building (qty 4) quarter-space 15 Hz straight exponential bass horns, joined together side-by-side, so that two horns act as one half-space stereo channel, and the other two horns are the other half-space stereo channel. I'm shooting for 15 Hz, because it will ensure that my horns will not unload right at 20 Hz - and because it will be fun to occasionally tinker with the signal generator - and because it has the proper degree of over-the-top-ness required for this project.
As I see it, I've got three options for the mains. I can position them to the left & right of the bass horns, position them above the bass horns, or position them out in front of the bass horns (I'm not exactly onboard with putting them inside the bass horns). Nonetheless, I'm sure one of these options will work well enough. Construction will not start until spring - thus we've got time to discuss. . .
FWIW - I am not the slightest bit offended by people arguing their strongly held beliefs - even when it gets personal. Trust me - after spending some time onboard submarines, it takes quite a bit of "stimulus" to get under my skin. . . .
Eric,
Hope your time with your Dad is good- wish I had spent more time with mine prior to his death.
Having spent a lot of time on the above water equivalent to submarines- tour buses, (starting when I was 5 years old with 10 people aboard or repairing Dad's converted pre-WW2 Greyhound, the "Nimrod") figured you were not a thin-skinned kind of guy.
Even though my skin seems to tear and bleed easier every year, no one has yet thought I was thin-skinned, but I don't have the time to participate in endless debates, or provide proof of every system observation spanning more than four decades.
Having built, tested, and listened to each of the four configurations on your short list of placement options, as well as others you have not considered, I have some rather unique insights to offer, should you decide you'd like to consult with me directly.
Cheers,
Art
Welter Systems, Inc.
P.S., just remembered Dad's first bus from when I was four years old- a 1928 straight 8 gasser with about 600 cubic inches. "The Santa Claus Town Circus Caravan Express" name started to appear on it's side after it sat unused for several decades after the Greyhound took it out of service. Dad did not figure his wooden pushrod repair made on our return from Mexico city would last another family vacation, and since the vacations were always done after he had "weathered in" the apartment construction jobs, he wanted something more reliable for those escapes from the frozen north for transport of his wife and 8 kids.
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If you have insight as to where I should best position my mains, or otherwise improve on my initial system design - then why not openly share this information? My question does not exactly require a man-hour-intensive formal engineering analysis. . . Nonetheless, I also acknowledge that intellectual property has value. However in this particular instance, I've 've got a forklift, and I'm more than willing to move my mains around to find the sweet spot - and then post my findings for all to see.
FWIW - the person most deserving of monetary compensation is David McBean - who graciously offers his Hornresp "product" to audio enthusiasts - "free" of charge. . . .
FWIW - the person most deserving of monetary compensation is David McBean - who graciously offers his Hornresp "product" to audio enthusiasts - "free" of charge. . . .
Entropy -
Any table napkins around on which you could sketch your concept and send a picture? With all acoustically relevant highlights?
Ben
Any table napkins around on which you could sketch your concept and send a picture? With all acoustically relevant highlights?
Ben
Eric,
Without a quote, not sure if your questions were directed to me, but I'll answer them:
1) Because I don't want to spend my time participating in endless debates, or provide proof of every system observation spanning more than four decades.
2) If I were to review my time log of the man-hours I have already spent answering your questions thus far, I'd have to kick m yass for doing it.
3) Glad to hear you agreee that intellectual property has value.
I will await your findings, fortunately I will not need to use a re-breather while I await them 😉 .
4) David's engineering gift is certainly the best value you can get in the simulation world, it has been both useful and a frustration when comparing the sim results to the real world.
David seems to have near infinite patience dealing with "audio enthusiasts" that ask endless questions without ever bothering to RTFM he includes with every iteration of the Hornresp program that continues to add more and more features to "spoon feed" folks that are usually in over their head in the wading pool of audio design.
Tools can be used or abused, the manufacturer can't be responsible for the end user's actions or results.
Damn, another half hour I promised myself I would not spend here, where is the DIY anonymous help line...
Cheers,
Art
I came to these boards because I'm going to build some outdoor bass horns. Yes I did some research prior, but I still had several unanswered conceptual (and rather novice) design questions - such as half-space/full-space loading (thank you Just-a-guy), utilizing multiple drivers, desired compression ratios, how to properly use hornresp, etc. I am very grateful for the help I've received thus far on this post. As a result, I believe my understanding is now firm-enough to break ground this spring. I'll be taking lots of pictures, and sharing my project progress during the construction phase.
FWIW, I was NOT the source of your endless debate. I asked you a few pointed questions, and each time you gave me cryptic and rather condescending responses. Then you implied that I could pay you money in exchange for proper answers. Not cool dude. . . And not the proper setting for such solicitations (this is a DIY website). . . .
I'm leaning towards building (qty 4) quarter-space 15 Hz straight exponential bass horns, joined together side-by-side, so that two horns act as one half-space stereo channel, and the other two horns are the other half-space stereo channel. I'm shooting for 15 Hz, because it will ensure that my horns will not unload right at 20 Hz - and because it will be fun to occasionally tinker with the signal generator - and because it has the proper degree of over-the-top-ness required for this project. The horns are going to be built into a decorative concrete/stone-faced wall. I plan to back-fill behind the wall – essentially burying the horns (to reduce the eyesore). I'm going to build a small outbuilding around the horn throats. This will house the electronics, power panel, rear-chambers, generally keep stuff out of the elements.
As I see it, I've got a few options for the mains. (1) I can position them to the left & right of the bass horns. I could actually cast voids into the concrete/stone-faced wall, to house the mid/trebble horns. I like this method best, because it provides the most protection for the mid/high horns. (2) I could position them above the wall, on top of the bass horns.(3) I could position them out in front of the bass horns. This method would probably require building my mains on wheels, and rolling them out into position each time I want to play music - probably not the best long-term solution.(4) I could put the mains inside the bass horns – which I'm not exactly onboard with doing at the moment.
Opinions?
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Your side by side diagram is functionally like a much larger version of the "VIP" updated "Ubangi" bass horns used in the 1970s by a Las Vegas based sound company that was quite successful, in spite of the gross comb filtering the set up engendered. Each tri-amped "VIP" enclosure featured built in BGW amps driving the 2x15" bass section, and two dual driver JBL radial horns topped by an arc of "Bullet" tweeters.
In a side by side set up like that, no two seats in the house or outdoors sound the same. That observation is not just an opinion, it is a measurable fact.
There are no successful live sound reinforcement companies in the USA using the type of setup you propose outdoors anymore, though plenty of DJs still do.
Since I'm not enough of a "cool dude" for your taste, I'll leave you to your own devices from here on out.
Good luck, have fun!
Cheers,
Art
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Another cryptic, and completely useless answer. . . .
My question was where I should place my mains. You respond with - that's not how it's done anymore. Question - that's not how WHAT is done anymore? Please advise? How does the industry typically build their outdoor 15 Hz full-size straight exponential bass horns - to feed a small & focused backyard listening area?
My bass horns will have roughly 450 square feet of mouth area. Are you taking issue with my proposed mouth area geometry? Or are you simply taking issue with my project in general?
No worries - I'm sure others will provide some helpful "constructive" feedback. . . .
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Hi entropy455,
I hope you are still planing on doing some sound checks with your current system, and maybe building an experimental bass horn. That work seems necessary to me to answer any of the question raised so far. Someone has already posted a picture of the Michigan University snow horn. Maybe the season will deliver you with lots of free experimental building material.
Regards,
P.S.: For the important things: today is the start of Karneval in Koeln. 🙂
I hope you are still planing on doing some sound checks with your current system, and maybe building an experimental bass horn. That work seems necessary to me to answer any of the question raised so far. Someone has already posted a picture of the Michigan University snow horn. Maybe the season will deliver you with lots of free experimental building material.
Regards,
P.S.: For the important things: today is the start of Karneval in Koeln. 🙂
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The purpose of taking the wife’s stereo outside was to prove that a 60-foot stereo bass-horn spacing would be more bad, than good (specifically, there’s no stereo separation below 80 Hz, and lobing issues below 80 Hz would be very appreciable). Several simulations were able to clearly show this phenomenon. The other purpose of taking the stereo outside, was to get a first-approximation at how loud of sound I ultimately desire.
I’ve pretty much accepted the fact that a wide (60 foot) stereo bass-horn spacing is overall less-than-desirable. This is why my current plan is to build a pair of stereo bass horns, side-by-side. My unresolved question is purely conceptual – which is, where I should place my mid/high horns in relation to the bass horns? I’m not sure that taking my wife’s system outside will answer this question, because my wife’s stereo is just (qty 4) 18s, in a pair of small 30 Hz bass-reflex enclosures. I say small, because the mouth of my bass horns are going to be magnitudes larger than the bass reflex enclosures. Unless I lift the mains 20 feet into the air (which I can do with my forklift), I cannot simulate them resting on top of 450 square foot bass horns. It’s not a relevant comparison, because the 18s would be essentially point-loading near the ground, whereas bass horns would be effectively loading 450 square feet of horn. The same problem exists for simulating the mains to the sides of the horns. Additionally, there is going to be a concrete wall at the horn's mouth, which does not currently exist outside.
The first horn I build is going to be a single 80 Hz mid-bass / lower mid-range unit (plywood construction). I plan on building more than one iteration, using a handful of different drivers - to see what sounds best. I'll be turning a phase-plug on my lathe. I haven't decided whether or not I'm ultimately going to cast my mid-bass/mid-range horns out of concrete also. If the system is going to last outside for 50 years, I'll probably end up casting them out of concrete also.
I’ve pretty much accepted the fact that a wide (60 foot) stereo bass-horn spacing is overall less-than-desirable. This is why my current plan is to build a pair of stereo bass horns, side-by-side. My unresolved question is purely conceptual – which is, where I should place my mid/high horns in relation to the bass horns? I’m not sure that taking my wife’s system outside will answer this question, because my wife’s stereo is just (qty 4) 18s, in a pair of small 30 Hz bass-reflex enclosures. I say small, because the mouth of my bass horns are going to be magnitudes larger than the bass reflex enclosures. Unless I lift the mains 20 feet into the air (which I can do with my forklift), I cannot simulate them resting on top of 450 square foot bass horns. It’s not a relevant comparison, because the 18s would be essentially point-loading near the ground, whereas bass horns would be effectively loading 450 square feet of horn. The same problem exists for simulating the mains to the sides of the horns. Additionally, there is going to be a concrete wall at the horn's mouth, which does not currently exist outside.
The first horn I build is going to be a single 80 Hz mid-bass / lower mid-range unit (plywood construction). I plan on building more than one iteration, using a handful of different drivers - to see what sounds best. I'll be turning a phase-plug on my lathe. I haven't decided whether or not I'm ultimately going to cast my mid-bass/mid-range horns out of concrete also. If the system is going to last outside for 50 years, I'll probably end up casting them out of concrete also.
As I see it, I've got a few options for the mains. (1) I can position them to the left & right of the bass horns. I could actually cast voids into the concrete/stone-faced wall, to house the mid/trebble horns. I like this method best, because it provides the most protection for the mid/high horns. (2) I could position them above the wall, on top of the bass horns.(3) I could position them out in front of the bass horns. This method would probably require building my mains on wheels, and rolling them out into position each time I want to play music - probably not the best long-term solution.(4) I could put the mains inside the bass horns – which I'm not exactly onboard with doing at the moment.
Opinions?
Hi Eric, in my previous 2 cents post, I said one piece of conventional wisdom I like is an isosceles triangle for stereo..which of course made incomplete sense...I meant equilateral.
Given a width of 32 ft for the sub pieces, and the listening distance ranges you've suggested, I'd guess mains to the sides will give you the mains' separation that might work best for stereo.
In a way, the sub you've laid out seems as much mono as anything. I have run my labsubs stacked together and split L/R...but might as well have just been mono I think (with x-over always <100hz).
With two stereo mains, and steep x-overs to the sub(s) at 100hz or less, I think comb filtering is a non-issue. And my guess is you can put the mains anywhere you want...sides, top, inside...just get time/phase alignment right and all will work well. Having said that though, I'd want the flexibility to try all those placements before I got locked in to one....
And i'd also want to keep my mono main option open....it still surprises me how much better some recorded music sounds mono than stereo..up to 3 cents haha