can anybody model this?
was wondering what impact in terms of load on driver this might have. Rather than mount the driver in the same plane as the internal baffle what about making the driver baffle sit at 45 degree angle at base of the collum with the driver tucked right into the corner tight. The area directly behind the magnet could be blocked off and the tap horn start with an opening equal to driver Sd right at the top edge of the driver. The idea is that the driver is now positioned to intercept the wavefront of the horn at closer to right angles than in the standard configuration. Acoustic coupling should be more intimate. Could anyone here with Akabak model the effect of this type of driver mounting position? Thanks. Moray James.
Freddy: this one of the things that I thinks makes a Karlson work so well. What do you think?
PS: I suppose that the driver could also be placed upon the bottom of the mouth section of the horn and fire into a sub vent with a CSA equal to driver Sd then the throat of the horn could begin at the back edge of the driver firing up. This would place the driver at a right angle to the wave front at the mouth of the horn.
was wondering what impact in terms of load on driver this might have. Rather than mount the driver in the same plane as the internal baffle what about making the driver baffle sit at 45 degree angle at base of the collum with the driver tucked right into the corner tight. The area directly behind the magnet could be blocked off and the tap horn start with an opening equal to driver Sd right at the top edge of the driver. The idea is that the driver is now positioned to intercept the wavefront of the horn at closer to right angles than in the standard configuration. Acoustic coupling should be more intimate. Could anyone here with Akabak model the effect of this type of driver mounting position? Thanks. Moray James.
Freddy: this one of the things that I thinks makes a Karlson work so well. What do you think?
PS: I suppose that the driver could also be placed upon the bottom of the mouth section of the horn and fire into a sub vent with a CSA equal to driver Sd then the throat of the horn could begin at the back edge of the driver firing up. This would place the driver at a right angle to the wave front at the mouth of the horn.
hi Moray - - K's can be fun - not sure of tap but they can make a lot of (good) noise without a lot of cone movement
here's two videos - one of K8 copy with vent - note low pressure area + same Sammi 8" speaker in sealed klam outdoors
t-P K8 fb maybe 80-85Hz - forgot to open up two slits so its only running 4 out od 6
keep audio way down or off on the first vid
http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08pressurek8lc4.flv
klam8 outdoors - mic overloaded up close
http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=04asymmetricprojector1qu2.flv
here's two videos - one of K8 copy with vent - note low pressure area + same Sammi 8" speaker in sealed klam outdoors
t-P K8 fb maybe 80-85Hz - forgot to open up two slits so its only running 4 out od 6
keep audio way down or off on the first vid
http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08pressurek8lc4.flv
klam8 outdoors - mic overloaded up close
http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=04asymmetricprojector1qu2.flv
Re: Re: Tapped horns for dummies
A conical flare is not only the easiest to build, it also offers the lowest F3. How great is that? On the downside, it's the least efficient. But personally I'd rather have a lower F3 than an extra DB of output.
Sabbelbacke said:
A conical flare is not only the easiest to build, it also offers the lowest F3. How great is that? On the downside, it's the least efficient. But personally I'd rather have a lower F3 than an extra DB of output.
Hey Freddy we are done...
this speaker does everything include wipe its own taper!!! Boy that little Klam sure kicks butt all on its own outside. So what do you think about the suggested driver position?
this speaker does everything include wipe its own taper!!! Boy that little Klam sure kicks butt all on its own outside. So what do you think about the suggested driver position?
haha - wipes its own taper !
whacha mean by driver position? - like down low in Ultra-Fidelity type vs the way Karlson mounted a speaker in a Klam? both seem to do something :^)
whacha mean by driver position? - like down low in Ultra-Fidelity type vs the way Karlson mounted a speaker in a Klam? both seem to do something :^)
Hey Freddy....
I was referring to the TAP where the driver is mounted in the mouth at either a 45 degree angle or at 90 degrees right on the bottom of the mouth. I that position the driver cone should be subject to full frontal impact of the wave front in the horn. Considering the effect that microphone diaphragm position has I see this as a significant difference from the standard vertical mounting position we most often see.
I was referring to the TAP where the driver is mounted in the mouth at either a 45 degree angle or at 90 degrees right on the bottom of the mouth. I that position the driver cone should be subject to full frontal impact of the wave front in the horn. Considering the effect that microphone diaphragm position has I see this as a significant difference from the standard vertical mounting position we most often see.
maybe Tom Danley has a half-way easy way to sim (?)
for ~30Hz skinny T-H, I'm looking for a driver which which will work well in ~6ft tall box - that Beyma a bit back looks good but is pricey
will there ever by a kollaborative Karlson thread in my lifetime?
for ~30Hz skinny T-H, I'm looking for a driver which which will work well in ~6ft tall box - that Beyma a bit back looks good but is pricey
will there ever by a kollaborative Karlson thread in my lifetime?
Circlomanen what do you think...
about the 60 Hz Tap that William Cowan built with an 18 Sound 10W400 driver? of all the units he has built with this one has the smoothest anf widest response 50 Hz to 260 Hz. This looks just like a driver that would be excellent in a Ripole design. The Vas is low and it works great. The Bl is also low which I think is a good thing in a TAP horn. Any comments?
THIELE SMALL PARAMETERS (8)
Fs 70 Hz
Re 5,1 Ohm
Sd 0,035 sq.mt. (54,25 sq.in.)
Qms 3,99
Qes 0,44
Qts 0,4
Vas 31 lt. (1,10 cuft)
Mms 27 gr. (0,06 lb)
BL 11,7 Tm
Linear Mathematical Xmax (9) ± 5,5 mm (± 0,22 in)
Le (1kHz) 1,2 mH
Ref. Efficiency 1W@1m (half space) 96 dB
about the 60 Hz Tap that William Cowan built with an 18 Sound 10W400 driver? of all the units he has built with this one has the smoothest anf widest response 50 Hz to 260 Hz. This looks just like a driver that would be excellent in a Ripole design. The Vas is low and it works great. The Bl is also low which I think is a good thing in a TAP horn. Any comments?
THIELE SMALL PARAMETERS (8)
Fs 70 Hz
Re 5,1 Ohm
Sd 0,035 sq.mt. (54,25 sq.in.)
Qms 3,99
Qes 0,44
Qts 0,4
Vas 31 lt. (1,10 cuft)
Mms 27 gr. (0,06 lb)
BL 11,7 Tm
Linear Mathematical Xmax (9) ± 5,5 mm (± 0,22 in)
Le (1kHz) 1,2 mH
Ref. Efficiency 1W@1m (half space) 96 dB
Yes! A lowish VAS and Qts 0,3 - 0,4 seems to work well in tapped horns.
A Eminence Kappa 15LF in a tapped horn.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
A Eminence Kappa 15LF in a tapped horn.
Circlomanen....
are you running HS v16.2? I have V16.2 and I was trying to play with the values that you showed on your screen shot of the Beyma driver but nothing seems to be comming out the same. I am trying to see what happens to the Fr when I play with the size of the throat and the expansion. My input parameters page does not look like yours. I am curious to know what happens to the response in reality after 100 Hz, seems to me that I recall William saying that things were smoother than what HS showed.
are you running HS v16.2? I have V16.2 and I was trying to play with the values that you showed on your screen shot of the Beyma driver but nothing seems to be comming out the same. I am trying to see what happens to the Fr when I play with the size of the throat and the expansion. My input parameters page does not look like yours. I am curious to know what happens to the response in reality after 100 Hz, seems to me that I recall William saying that things were smoother than what HS showed.
Yes, that is Hornresp V.16.20 im running.
Please post your results. I have run these specs on three different computers, all with 16.20, all with the same result.
Johannes.
Please post your results. I have run these specs on three different computers, all with 16.20, all with the same result.
Johannes.
having trouble saving models in version 16 (not 16.2) Your 765 liter horn model looked good with B&C 15trx 100. I already have 15trx40 but need to keep bulk & weight managable for one person to wrestle -have too many junk and vintage speakers taking up space.
Re: Re: Tapped horns for dummies
If I'm not mistaken, the FS won't affect the "smoothness" of the response. It *will* affect the F3. The smoothest response would be achieved by juggling qms, qes, BL, the location of the drive, location of the tap, and the flare rate.
Not only is conical the easiest to build, it also gives the lowest F3. The easiest way to grasp this is to realize that a "real" horn and a bandpass box are just two points on a spectrum. The "real" horn trades F3 for efficiency; reducing it's size lowers the efficiency, but it ALSO lowers the F3. How great is that? This is one of the reasons why "real" horns are a bad idea for subwoofer duty; raising the efficiency raises the F3.
I wrote a paper about this:
http://home.comcast.net/~j.vanommen/speakers/Single_Reflex_Bandpass_vs_Front_Loaded_Horn.pdf
See this too:
http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=62292
Can't we just put a stake in this silly myth and get it over with?
IMHO, Dan Wiggins has written the best debunking of this myth, but it's no longer on his website. I even tried to get it for you from the Wayback Machine, with no luck.
To quote John Janowitz,
"In terms of overall sound, many people feel vented or PR systems sound "slow". There is a very good reason for this. The "speed" of bass is equal only to the frequency. The lower the frequency, the slower the driver moves. Systems described having very "tight" or "fast" bass are the ones that lack in very low output. My favorite Tom Nousaine quote was about a subwoofer that everyone said was so "fast." He said "the bass was so fast it got up and left the room." It sounded fast because higher frequencies are faster."
The original poster was correct. A combination of two tunings may improve the smoothnes of the response. He was also correct that it WILL be difficult to model. Akabak can do it.
There's nothing unorthodox about a single cabinet with two speakers that are tuned to differnt frequencies and that use different alignments. In fact that's exactly what's used for the majority of loudspeakers! (the tweeter is generally in a sealed enclosure, the woofer is generally in a ported enclosure.)
Sabbelbacke said:
If I'm not mistaken, the FS won't affect the "smoothness" of the response. It *will* affect the F3. The smoothest response would be achieved by juggling qms, qes, BL, the location of the drive, location of the tap, and the flare rate.
Sabbelbacke said:
Not only is conical the easiest to build, it also gives the lowest F3. The easiest way to grasp this is to realize that a "real" horn and a bandpass box are just two points on a spectrum. The "real" horn trades F3 for efficiency; reducing it's size lowers the efficiency, but it ALSO lowers the F3. How great is that? This is one of the reasons why "real" horns are a bad idea for subwoofer duty; raising the efficiency raises the F3.
I wrote a paper about this:
http://home.comcast.net/~j.vanommen/speakers/Single_Reflex_Bandpass_vs_Front_Loaded_Horn.pdf
See this too:
http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=62292
Anyone that says this on a subwoofer board should lose their credibility instantly 🙂Sabbelbacke said:
Can't we just put a stake in this silly myth and get it over with?
IMHO, Dan Wiggins has written the best debunking of this myth, but it's no longer on his website. I even tried to get it for you from the Wayback Machine, with no luck.
To quote John Janowitz,
"In terms of overall sound, many people feel vented or PR systems sound "slow". There is a very good reason for this. The "speed" of bass is equal only to the frequency. The lower the frequency, the slower the driver moves. Systems described having very "tight" or "fast" bass are the ones that lack in very low output. My favorite Tom Nousaine quote was about a subwoofer that everyone said was so "fast." He said "the bass was so fast it got up and left the room." It sounded fast because higher frequencies are faster."
Sabbelbacke said:
The original poster was correct. A combination of two tunings may improve the smoothnes of the response. He was also correct that it WILL be difficult to model. Akabak can do it.
There's nothing unorthodox about a single cabinet with two speakers that are tuned to differnt frequencies and that use different alignments. In fact that's exactly what's used for the majority of loudspeakers! (the tweeter is generally in a sealed enclosure, the woofer is generally in a ported enclosure.)
Sabbelbacke said:
In a textbook horn, the high BL smooths ripples in the response. One of the easiest ways to see this is to download Martin King's front-loaded-horn sim, and play with the BL value. You'll see the response flatten quite a bit as BL goes up.
As the size of the horn is reduced, F3 goes down, and sensitivity go down. At the same time, the influence of BL on the response curve goes down with it.
That's one of the reasons that "traditional" horn drivers aren't optimum for a tapped horn.
Re: Re: Re: Tapped horns for dummies
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/WooferSpeed.pdf
Patrick Bateman said:
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/WooferSpeed.pdf
hey guys, as some of you know
( since they have posted in my thread )
i am currently desinging my new house, and my new home theater room
I was siggested by many of you to go with a bass horn for the sub bass section
Circlo pointed me out to a hornresp graphic that was very interesting
since then i have read some on horns, wich didn't interest me much for higher freq reproduction in the past...
Where do i need to start ?
i am missing very important information on design and all, and i've went through a few hundred of pages already linked from members here, from member pages to jbl papers and so on ..
What i know, is that phisically i will have an available dedicated space of around 10 cubic meter per horn
( i want stereo bass )
i need it to be accurate and loud, this will be used for home theater in a 20 by 25 room ( wich non paralell walls, surround setup with alot of drivers and big sound)
Should i start by playing with hornResp using different drivers to get the feel of what is required?
have you guys come to a concensus about what kinf of driver is required to get correct response?
btw, i don't mind using a few drivers on each side,
but my restriction on the mouth size is around 5' large by 9' high ...each ...
thanks
( since they have posted in my thread )
i am currently desinging my new house, and my new home theater room
I was siggested by many of you to go with a bass horn for the sub bass section
Circlo pointed me out to a hornresp graphic that was very interesting
since then i have read some on horns, wich didn't interest me much for higher freq reproduction in the past...
Where do i need to start ?
i am missing very important information on design and all, and i've went through a few hundred of pages already linked from members here, from member pages to jbl papers and so on ..
What i know, is that phisically i will have an available dedicated space of around 10 cubic meter per horn
( i want stereo bass )
i need it to be accurate and loud, this will be used for home theater in a 20 by 25 room ( wich non paralell walls, surround setup with alot of drivers and big sound)
Should i start by playing with hornResp using different drivers to get the feel of what is required?
have you guys come to a concensus about what kinf of driver is required to get correct response?
btw, i don't mind using a few drivers on each side,
but my restriction on the mouth size is around 5' large by 9' high ...each ...
thanks
Okay, .. I'm considering building one of these tapped horn thingys to mate with my line arrays below 80 - 100Hz (mainly because they are cheao / easy to build). I'd like to get an honest 20 - 25 hz out of it for mixed home theater / music use. Before I commit to this endeavour, could someone who has build one answer a couple of questions: My room is about 11' x 14'.
1. Does it sound okay for music or is mostly an effects / home theater sub . I'd like something that works well for both applications.
2. Any comparisons to other subs (pref. horn loaded)
3. Important - does it HAVE to fire into a corner (1/8th space) to fill. I'd rather have something that works into 1/4 space ie. firing at a wall/floor junction .
I have a few drivers available:
A. 1 x shiva mk IV 12" DVC sub
Fs=20.7Hz
Qts=0.35
Qes=0.37
Qms =0.65
Z = 4 ohm nominal
BL = 11.3
Vas = 0.15
B. 2 x MCM 55-2421 8" sub# Impedance: 4ohm
Z: 3.4ohm
Fs: 25Hz (closer to 30Hz in reality)
Qts: 0.22
Qes: 0.22
Qms: 13.62
Vas: 32.46 (liters)
C. 1 x A low Qts vintage university C-15W 15" DVC woofer (light cone, macho motor), as used in some vintage bass horns. I may have specs somewhere, but not with me at the current time.
Which would work best for my application?
1. Does it sound okay for music or is mostly an effects / home theater sub . I'd like something that works well for both applications.
2. Any comparisons to other subs (pref. horn loaded)
3. Important - does it HAVE to fire into a corner (1/8th space) to fill. I'd rather have something that works into 1/4 space ie. firing at a wall/floor junction .
I have a few drivers available:
A. 1 x shiva mk IV 12" DVC sub
Fs=20.7Hz
Qts=0.35
Qes=0.37
Qms =0.65
Z = 4 ohm nominal
BL = 11.3
Vas = 0.15
B. 2 x MCM 55-2421 8" sub# Impedance: 4ohm
Z: 3.4ohm
Fs: 25Hz (closer to 30Hz in reality)
Qts: 0.22
Qes: 0.22
Qms: 13.62
Vas: 32.46 (liters)
C. 1 x A low Qts vintage university C-15W 15" DVC woofer (light cone, macho motor), as used in some vintage bass horns. I may have specs somewhere, but not with me at the current time.
Which would work best for my application?
of the mouth of a horn exits at floor/wall/ceiling junction
taking all of this space
does it makes a 1/8 space??
example
8' high room
the horn mouth is 8' tall
and 8' large ..but the room is 20' large on this wall
the horn mouth touches ceiling, 1 side wall and floor
taking all of this space
does it makes a 1/8 space??
example
8' high room
the horn mouth is 8' tall
and 8' large ..but the room is 20' large on this wall
the horn mouth touches ceiling, 1 side wall and floor