Hi Bernhard,
I have measured a fair few TDA1541 over time (different batches, plants etc.) and they are not as bad as you make them out. At AMR we have production records for hundreds of CD-Players with TDA1541A and they all rather measure rather alike. There are one or two caveats though, you need to implement them correctly.
Please name me the multibit DAC that exceeds the TDA1541A in measured performance and outputs 2V RMS @ 0dBFS with passive I/V conversion, into a 10K or higher load, no post amplification, no stepup transformers, no "tricks", no on-chip Op-Amp's. I want a few.
Philips offered selection grades for low distortion. In production I have not found it necessary to select the TDA1541A we stock, but they are not "R1" spec, which one often sees.
Ciao T
I have measured a fair few TDA1541 over time (different batches, plants etc.) and they are not as bad as you make them out. At AMR we have production records for hundreds of CD-Players with TDA1541A and they all rather measure rather alike. There are one or two caveats though, you need to implement them correctly.
Please name me the multibit DAC that exceeds the TDA1541A in measured performance and outputs 2V RMS @ 0dBFS with passive I/V conversion, into a 10K or higher load, no post amplification, no stepup transformers, no "tricks", no on-chip Op-Amp's. I want a few.
Philips offered selection grades for low distortion. In production I have not found it necessary to select the TDA1541A we stock, but they are not "R1" spec, which one often sees.
Ciao T
Bernhard,
I have used PCM1704 with passive I/V, it works fine. It did have a post amp stage though.
I have build or modifed and tested DAC's / CDP's with:
AD1865
AD1852
AK4397
CS4327
CS4328
CS4329
CS4397
ES9008
PCM56
PCM63
PCM1702
PCM1704
PCM1738
PCM1793
PCM1798
PD2026
PD2028
SM5872
SM5866
TDA1543
TDA1545
TDA1541
UDA1305
WM8740
WM8741
Of all of them I still find the TDA1541A the best to my ears, for CD, if suitably applied. It also does not measure too shabby for 16 Bit.
I did quite like the other Philips Chips as well the Pioneer OEM Chip's with Legato Link, the Burr brown Multibit PCB's and the AD Multibit ones, I though the ESS was pretty good too, but overpriced for what it delivers.
The AD1852, PCM1793 and SM5872 have all surprised me, delivering a better performance subjectively than the more expensive chip's their makers offers.
All comments apply to 16/44.1 material. The deck is stacked differently with many higher sample rate recordings.
Ciao T
I have used PCM1704 with passive I/V, it works fine. It did have a post amp stage though.
I have build or modifed and tested DAC's / CDP's with:
AD1865
AD1852
AK4397
CS4327
CS4328
CS4329
CS4397
ES9008
PCM56
PCM63
PCM1702
PCM1704
PCM1738
PCM1793
PCM1798
PD2026
PD2028
SM5872
SM5866
TDA1543
TDA1545
TDA1541
UDA1305
WM8740
WM8741
Of all of them I still find the TDA1541A the best to my ears, for CD, if suitably applied. It also does not measure too shabby for 16 Bit.
I did quite like the other Philips Chips as well the Pioneer OEM Chip's with Legato Link, the Burr brown Multibit PCB's and the AD Multibit ones, I though the ESS was pretty good too, but overpriced for what it delivers.
The AD1852, PCM1793 and SM5872 have all surprised me, delivering a better performance subjectively than the more expensive chip's their makers offers.
All comments apply to 16/44.1 material. The deck is stacked differently with many higher sample rate recordings.
Ciao T
Hi Thorsten
That means you agree they could be better.
I look at FFT of dithered -60dB 1khz signal. With averaging to see below the noise floor. Most of TDAs I measured, also looked similar.
Perhaps you could enlighten us how to implement correctly, so we can check for "errors".
Can you post measurements ?
1 V single ended should be enough ?
Most S1 chips i had were not much better.
That means you agree they could be better.
What do you measure ?
I look at FFT of dithered -60dB 1khz signal. With averaging to see below the noise floor. Most of TDAs I measured, also looked similar.
Perhaps you could enlighten us how to implement correctly, so we can check for "errors".
Can you post measurements ?
1 V single ended should be enough ?
Most S1 chips i had were not much better.
And now they are all fakes...
I have posted measurements of PCM61 and TDA 1541. PCM61 wins. Sure, I was told that I don't have the "mistical" TDA1541A...
A conflict loving guy eh ? Your comments always breathe a smell of inner conflicts.
But...I wonder how many TDA1541 chips you measured. Nothing special but the A was simply a revision of the older chip and I think the A version is better. AFAIK way more A versions were produced as the non-A version did not exist for long. Please mind that we are discussing and using a chip from the eighties of the former century while living in the year 2012. That fact alone says something. I can not even recall the PCM61.
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It's something on 18 bit that TDA1541A wanted to be with no success
Well, it seems the TDA has had somewhat more success than the PCM61 so you are not well informed.
Why is it that TDA based cdplayers and/or DACs are still being developed ? Even the older ones have some value. I haven't seen or heard from fake PCM61's and I see demand is very high:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=pcm61...
Are you an ex BB employee or what ? I just checked the data sheet and it seems it is something 18 bit (on paper) that did not reach 18 bit.
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I found this:
Today I took the time to measure PCM1704 no K in a CAL CL2500.
Better channel @ -60 dB:
Much worse channel:
The Yamaha CDX-1110 with MSB adjust, I also used that as transport for the CAL:
LSB test disc track 15 PCM1704 better channel:
LSB test disc track 15 PCM56 better channel:
Nothing beats a properly adjusted good PCM56...
PCM61 is an upgraded pcm56 but has mostly been used in low end players without love and care.
Before that time, Denon and Yamaha used the PCM56 in all their expensive players. Marantz and Philips used 1541A.
The high bit chip development was fast and Denon switched to 20 bit, skipping 18 bit, while Marantz Philips and Yamaha switched to bitstream.
Many High End manufacturers who wanted a cd player in their program but did not have the capabilities to develop it themselves, took everything from Philips including laser, servo, and DAC chip.
Maybe Philips was very oem friendly.
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Actually in my player Denon used the Alpha processing to claim 20 bit resolution with 18 bit PCM61 and two bit done via summing in analog domain (external OpAmp). They switched fast to a real 20bit PCM63, PCM1702 and latter PCM1704.
Philips had probably 10 times bigger manufacturing capacity, BB back then was smaller (they where bought by TI only in 2000) but more inovating, rolling a generation after another very fast, while Philips where contend to sell the same cip.
That's why Philips are more prevalent... they did dump more cips on market.
Philips had probably 10 times bigger manufacturing capacity, BB back then was smaller (they where bought by TI only in 2000) but more inovating, rolling a generation after another very fast, while Philips where contend to sell the same cip.
That's why Philips are more prevalent... they did dump more cips on market.
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Bernhard,
In the world in which we find ourselves we can conceive absolute perfection as a concept but cannot physically attain such perfection, thus everything in principle is infinitely perfectible, including the TDA1541A.
A number of parameters, including 0dBfs and -60dBfs FFT.
The areas that need attention are DEM recolocking, powersupplies, I/V conversion and inputs. Many good circuits have been discussed here, use them.
I have, on occasion.
You cannot driver a Speaker with 1V Single Ended. I was expecting something like 20V/4Ohm load", no post amplification, no stepup transformers, no "tricks".
Ciao T
Most S1 chips i had were not much better.[/QUOTE]
In the world in which we find ourselves we can conceive absolute perfection as a concept but cannot physically attain such perfection, thus everything in principle is infinitely perfectible, including the TDA1541A.
A number of parameters, including 0dBfs and -60dBfs FFT.
The areas that need attention are DEM recolocking, powersupplies, I/V conversion and inputs. Many good circuits have been discussed here, use them.
I have, on occasion.
You cannot driver a Speaker with 1V Single Ended. I was expecting something like 20V/4Ohm load", no post amplification, no stepup transformers, no "tricks".
Ciao T
Most S1 chips i had were not much better.[/QUOTE]
More innovating ? Probably ? May I remind you that it was Philips that invented cdplayers ? Did you care to check what DEM is ? Dumping was not a technique used by Philips. They were a popular OEM as they had a total package for producing cdplayers which was very attractive for many customers. There were Phlips cdplayers with only a different faceplate sold under famous brand names back then... The 18, 20 bit thing was like the "MHz war" in the computer CPU world. I think BB was more into that but they made some good products. Too bad some manufacturers used analog summing or only 1 DAC for 2 channels. Philips made the same bloody good chip (never change a winning team) for many years and you might think it is not worth the trouble but tens of thousands of people think otherwise.
I recently threw away my stash of old audio magazines and before I did so I reread cdplayer reviews of many years just for old times sake. In most reviews and tests TDA based cdplayers were chosen as best.
Please mind that I do not even own a NOS DAC (nor a TDA1541A DAC despite the fact that I like it) and that I try to avoid Philips products nowadays but facts are facts.
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Let's calm sirs
Dear sirs, I find this entire discussion unnecessary. Here what matters is the music and what makes us feel. So we are trying to build among all the best system possible. And the TDA1541 chip is chosen, and that is not negotiable or debatable. So, please, go ahead.
I don't find the emoticon to put here that can show what I feel inside when I listen to music, it's too spiritual.
Dear sirs, I find this entire discussion unnecessary. Here what matters is the music and what makes us feel. So we are trying to build among all the best system possible. And the TDA1541 chip is chosen, and that is not negotiable or debatable. So, please, go ahead.
I don't find the emoticon to put here that can show what I feel inside when I listen to music, it's too spiritual.