Monacor is not available in the US.
Regarding Peerless NE149W-8 availability in Europe
1) Can someone in Europe who buys frequently at Soundimports inquire whether they have any plans to re-stock this driver?
If the answer to (1) is "yes" not need to continue.
2) What is the attitude toward purchasing on Aliexpress in Europe? In the US I know several people who purchase quite a bit, and I have purchased there also...no problems. I also know plenty of people who don't really know what it is - "it is some Chinese online site" - and would unlikely to use it.
3) Could someone in Europe put a pair of NE149W-8 in an Aliexpress cart and see what it would cost, shipped, to them?
Regarding Peerless NE149W-8 availability in Europe
1) Can someone in Europe who buys frequently at Soundimports inquire whether they have any plans to re-stock this driver?
If the answer to (1) is "yes" not need to continue.
2) What is the attitude toward purchasing on Aliexpress in Europe? In the US I know several people who purchase quite a bit, and I have purchased there also...no problems. I also know plenty of people who don't really know what it is - "it is some Chinese online site" - and would unlikely to use it.
3) Could someone in Europe put a pair of NE149W-8 in an Aliexpress cart and see what it would cost, shipped, to them?
Résumé
Sous-total €109.68
Frais de livraison €35.53
Total estimé €145.21
To France. A bit pricier than to BC, Canada but we are closer.
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Where is the best source for Peerless NE149W for US buyers? Assuming I want 2 of them, not 300...
On Aliexpress I have
66*2+ Shipping = 166 but maybe not the good seller (that have bad comments by the way )
Parts Express shows they'll be in stock in May (with the other Peerless drives that must be on the same slow boat)
I think this link is the one I used for that quote.
@hifijim, I suspect Aliexpress is the best source for you, too.
I'm lucky to have one pair on hand.
so it ican be sourced in 8 ohms. And certainly the best choice,
So >=5" <=6" : paper and more or less flater than many (simplier passive filter)
NE149W-08 : 70 euros / ? USD : are there taiwanese members aware of a source in their country that sell units in a local webshop ?
SB16PFCR25-08 : 31 euros / ?USD : round 6" midwoof; looks like ok for a crossover from 200 Hz
SB15NRX2C30 : 70 euros / ? USD
...
?: non paper 15W8434G00 : 70 euros / 80 USD at Madison
So >=5" <=6" : paper and more or less flater than many (simplier passive filter)
NE149W-08 : 70 euros / ? USD : are there taiwanese members aware of a source in their country that sell units in a local webshop ?
SB16PFCR25-08 : 31 euros / ?USD : round 6" midwoof; looks like ok for a crossover from 200 Hz
SB15NRX2C30 : 70 euros / ? USD
...
?: non paper 15W8434G00 : 70 euros / 80 USD at Madison
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@Lojzek Its rather interesting how I hear quite a few people talking positively about the Peerless Nomex cone HDS drivers, yet they don't measure all that well in the lower mids in terms of HD. I also like these drivers quite a lot, along with the poly cone 830870 (a really good, natural sounding mid). They also made a phase plug model with the nomex cone and HDS motor.
@wolf_teeth The PRV 4MR60 isn't a bad driver, but it has rather low power handling capability with its 19mm VC. PRV makes some interesting stuff and I like their midbass stuff, plus you can get repair parts for most of their drivers. The main problem they have is inconsistent specs.
@wolf_teeth The PRV 4MR60 isn't a bad driver, but it has rather low power handling capability with its 19mm VC. PRV makes some interesting stuff and I like their midbass stuff, plus you can get repair parts for most of their drivers. The main problem they have is inconsistent specs.
At Parts Express, some of the out-of-stock-coming-in-May Peerless drivers show pricing for 1-4 units, but the NE149W is still showing a minimum order of 300... ? Hopefully that changes...
200Hz is too much of a stretch, esp for a plastic frame. Probably need to cross lowish to the tweeter; 6" cone narrows dispersion at lower freq. than 5~4" ones.
US$63 at madisound
CA$93 Solen
seems to me feasible looking the datasheet 200 hz electrical (so more acoustical <300 hz)) to 2K Hz w/o problem. 4.5 mm Xmax; At worst BR (for the venting also)?
It doesn't beam too much at 2 Khz and the break up is high. I just put it here because of the price and in a 3Way Classic it could add some punch due to the Sd ?
The SB15NRX should sound better for twice the price. NE149W-08 if okay to source seems to me the logical choice, it is a Revelator like people said. (and I have 4). The ScanSpeak is a higher (less good option ? maybe at the level of the SB15NRX ?)
It doesn't beam too much at 2 Khz and the break up is high. I just put it here because of the price and in a 3Way Classic it could add some punch due to the Sd ?
The SB15NRX should sound better for twice the price. NE149W-08 if okay to source seems to me the logical choice, it is a Revelator like people said. (and I have 4). The ScanSpeak is a higher (less good option ? maybe at the level of the SB15NRX ?)
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Yeah, I saw this last week but forgot about it before replying. I'll email PE tomorrow and see if they'll provide any info. I'd love to use this driver, but if it isn't also available in Europe then we will still need to pass on it. ...We'll see...
Of course that is in regards to the project. You are probably considering a pair for your own design 🙂
Thank you Juha.
According to the the link, this is a sealed box design with the following dimensions: 36cm wide, 2.1m tall and 24cm deep.
Without design plans, we will need to approximate the internal cabinet volume. If we base it on 3/4" MDF stock and interior cabinet treatments and not taking into account other factors, the internal volume is 133L:
If we assume 1" material, a few liters of bracing and for the driver, the volume is ~115L
Of course, the reality is there is probably come internal deadening and damping and the panels may not all be the same size. But I will simulate the lower limit of 115L and upper limit of 133L
Here is a simulation, in 2pi (infinite baffle), as well as 62L, as suggested by @A4eaudio
The differences between 115L and 133L are within squinting distance. Indeed, you may have heard that in sealed box designs, they are resilient towards small changes in internal volume (115/133 = 0.86 = 86%)
Note that the 62L volume loses 0-3dB below 50Hz, with only slight boost above 50Hz.
The thin dashed line represent the maximum SPL based on the excursion limits and/or thermal power handling.
Under 70Hz, it is straight line.. this represent the maximum SPL based on the volume of air that can be displaced by the cone. (volume displacement = cone diameter x excursion).
On the right of 70Hz the curve has a little valley but then goes above 115dB right of 700Hz. This represent the maximum SPL, based on the specified power handling. This is based on Peerless' rating of 100W, defined by testing for 100 hours continuously with a shaped pink noise signal under the the IEC standard (268-5, cl 18.4 Rated noise test)
(more on power ratings and excursion ratings later)
Now let's have a look at baffle step losses:
The solid line represents the 2pi (infinite baffle response)
The dotted line represents the 4 pi (free space aka anechoic) simulated response of the woofer in a cabinet with a baffle that is 36cm wide and 60cm tall (potential classic 3-way size)
As we can see, the SPL loss occurs when the woofer is mounted in a box of finite dimensions and measured anechoically (10+ meters above the ground, in an anechoic chamber, or via other means) instead of one that is "infinitely large" (eg. suppose you dig a hole in the ground, and place your speaker cabinet into the ground, then fill the hole up, carefully patting all the sand flat and firm, such that your woofer is now sitting sitting flush with the ground. This ground surface is "infinitely large")
In reality, the actually bass response is LARGELY determined by your room, under about ~500Hz.
Depending on your room, and whether you place your speakers, there will A LOT of variation from 20Hz to ~500Hz.
You may have heard people comment that bass response seems to depend on the room. Absolutely.
And as such, the designer has to decide how to tune the speaker, so that they may an appropriate bass response, in room.
(for the moment, let's us forget about subwoofers, but we may revisit that later)
...
So it appears that we've lost all that bass below about 300Hz from putting a cabinet into a sealed cabinet.
Well, by "sacrificing a bit of sensitivity" we can bring the levels above 100 or 200Hz down... so that things sounds more balanced. After all, less bass <-> more midrange.
So let's bring the midrange down a little. Here we have a look at baffle diffraction loss compensation applied for 87dB@200Hz, in the 133L cabinet vs the 62L cabinet.
Note the gain of about 1dB in 70-100Hz, but a loss 1-3dB from 60-30Hz.
(recall that 3dB is that same as twice the power)
Are there other advantages of using such a larger sealed box?
Here is the group delay:
There are some minor reduction in group delay for the larger boxes under between about 40-120 Hz.
The audible significance may be debatable, but the reduction in volume cannot- it is half the size!
Seasoned designers will look at this and say @tktran303 - this is next to insignificant, and I would agree with them. I am merely demonstrating one reason why the designers may have decided on the the larger cabinet volume.
Of course, other reason for the larger cabinet volume is that
a) they wanted a tall cabinet
b) T/S parameters may have shifted somewhat the past 20 years with this driver (possible)
I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, and will make the claim that they wanted the aesthetic of this striking "Black and white" design.
The question, moving forward then.
In a 62L box-
a) Are we satisfied by 87dB/2.83V as a reference sensitivity (~200Hz onwards), and this shaped anechoic bass response below ~200Hz?
b) Max SPL of 106dB dB >200Hz, 100dB @41 Hz (anechoic F6 of 41Hz) with 28.3V (100W in 8 ohms) applied.
Here is the full simulation.
Appendix:
Different SLS drivers in different sized boxes, with maximum SPL, based on volume displacement and/or thermal power ratings
Different SLS drivers in different sized boxes, with maximum SPL, based on volume displacement and/or thermal power ratings
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I just modeled the 12BR70 vs Peerless SLS in a 2.2cf (62L) and they are nearly identical. The Beyma is a little more than twice as expensive in the US.
That is why I posted the specs I measured. Also of note- the sensitivity of 90dB/m was measured at 2V, not 2.83V, so the output is even higher than that. It recommends 12dB/oct at 190Hz for full power output. I wager usage will be 350Hz+ in this usage case, and all said and done used as a midrange will be about 88-89dB (BSC and BP gain) before trying to pad and match a woofer.
I see that it is not available over there in Europe, so now i get why it was not considered further. For those in the USA, I think it'd be hard to find another 4" that is this sensitive and capable.
The PRV 4MR60 looks like a very good driver.
Do you have in box measurements somewhere you can share with us?
Shame it’s not available in Europe.
A similar driver is available on both sides of the coin, the Italian made
Faital Pro 4FE35
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-1123-faitalpro-4fe35-4-specifications.pdf
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/speaker-faitalpro-4fe35-4-ohm-4-inch.html
I have the neo based 4Fe42 and measured it some time ago with a basic electret mic:
And this is the distortion with a basic mic (Sonarworks Xref20) the H2 is likely even lower, for those who care)
But many weren’t enamoured by it’s looks or concerned about mounting the stamped frame.
Do you have in box measurements somewhere you can share with us?
Shame it’s not available in Europe.
A similar driver is available on both sides of the coin, the Italian made
Faital Pro 4FE35
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-1123-faitalpro-4fe35-4-specifications.pdf
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/speaker-faitalpro-4fe35-4-ohm-4-inch.html
I have the neo based 4Fe42 and measured it some time ago with a basic electret mic:
And this is the distortion with a basic mic (Sonarworks Xref20) the H2 is likely even lower, for those who care)
But many weren’t enamoured by it’s looks or concerned about mounting the stamped frame.
I don't know if you considered it, but some fullrange drivers like those from Mark Audio are also excellent midrange drivers i think. The 5.25 (in reality) CHN110 is such one, and very cheap (60€) and worldwide availeble. I know from experience it sounds good fullrange also (off course with the typical limitations), but filtered in the FR band needed it's very neutral and the flat cone make the dispertion better than you would expect from that size of cone. I would consider it at least.
https://www.markaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/CHN110.pdf
https://www.markaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/CHN110.pdf
Exhibit A:
Mark Audio CHN110
€60
Exhibit B:
Faital Pro 4FE35-8
€26
Would you please consider reviewing what I wrote in post “how to read data sheets” and tell me which one you understand to have potential for higher performance/€, as a pure midrange in a budget classic 3- way, targeting sensitivity 87-88 dB/2.83V.
Mark Audio CHN110
€60
Exhibit B:
Faital Pro 4FE35-8
€26
Would you please consider reviewing what I wrote in post “how to read data sheets” and tell me which one you understand to have potential for higher performance/€, as a pure midrange in a budget classic 3- way, targeting sensitivity 87-88 dB/2.83V.