Details will be confirmed after all drivers are selected and possibly after actual measurements of the drivers.
But it should be quite close to this:
15-1/2" W (394 mm)
26-1/2 to 27 " H (686 mm)
14-15" D (368 mm)
This is 1 to 1-1/2 taller than the JBL L100 which uses a 12", 5" 1"
Estimate for woofer volume is 2.2 cf (62L). May be able to go up to 2.3 cf (65L) as I probably overestimate volume for midrange enclosure and bracing. We can even add an 1" depth if needed, but I don't think it will be needed.
The Peerless SLS 830669 data sheet at Parts Express is from 2017. Here is the most recent (2021) on the Peerless product page. Sensitivity is a little lower, xmax higher.
Here is box model in WinISD using 2.2cf volume, 100W, 0.6 ohm DCR in series, Qa=10.
Old TS parameters in red, Q = 0.91
New TS parameters in blue Q = 0.99 F3/F6/F10 = 46Hz/38/31
Old TS parameters in red, Q = 0.91
New TS parameters in blue Q = 0.99 F3/F6/F10 = 46Hz/38/31
Simulation in VituixCAD at 2.83V
Q = 0.90, Vb = 72.6L (larger than we want)
Blue dot-dash line is 2pi. White line is 2pi with a 2nd order low-pass filter at 350Hz, Q=0.5
Brown line is 4pi with the same LP filter, flat at 87dB.
It would seem a midrange with 86-87dB 2.83v/1m sensitivity is the minimum we should be looking at.
Q = 0.90, Vb = 72.6L (larger than we want)
Blue dot-dash line is 2pi. White line is 2pi with a 2nd order low-pass filter at 350Hz, Q=0.5
Brown line is 4pi with the same LP filter, flat at 87dB.
It would seem a midrange with 86-87dB 2.83v/1m sensitivity is the minimum we should be looking at.
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Maybe the good question to ask is what style do we want to do.
I remember the diy speaker of my father made in the seventies. : a 12 inch beyma, tiny mid and tiny tweet.
To make an old style monkey coffin, i would try to take wide dispersion drivers like 4" mid and an SB 19 or 21.
If making a "New age monkey coffin" I will tend to go with a 5 or 5.5 and would put a tweeter in a waveguide.
There is not "better choice" it's all about compromises and what we WANT to do rather than how.
(I personnaly would go for the 4 just because it is the opposite of my current 8 inch mid and prefer to expérience something different )
I remember the diy speaker of my father made in the seventies. : a 12 inch beyma, tiny mid and tiny tweet.
To make an old style monkey coffin, i would try to take wide dispersion drivers like 4" mid and an SB 19 or 21.
If making a "New age monkey coffin" I will tend to go with a 5 or 5.5 and would put a tweeter in a waveguide.
There is not "better choice" it's all about compromises and what we WANT to do rather than how.
(I personnaly would go for the 4 just because it is the opposite of my current 8 inch mid and prefer to expérience something different )
Again it's alll about logic, for a 4" you need a 12" that climbs cleanly as said several times, so a Sd 50 cm² of a 4" doesn't go low enough !
So >= 5" is needed. But if you find the 12" geme that is cheap and have both low bass enough and clim high straying in the ballpark subject of this thread (cheap... but not worse that those of the 60s'!).
So >= 5" is needed. But if you find the 12" geme that is cheap and have both low bass enough and clim high straying in the ballpark subject of this thread (cheap... but not worse that those of the 60s'!).
@A4eaudio , I see you have showed the baffle step (brown curve), I am surprised it is only - 4 dB at 50 Hz... , but we have indeed the -4dB circa at 100 Hz. You worked with 70 cm x 38cm width (sorry for the cm)
With the data of Dibirama (91.5 sensivity), I have 75L with Qtc 0.8 but 57L with Qtc : 0.86 (Qa: 08 ; Ql:10).
The filter for each is a 180 Hz 12Db Bessel, acoustical cut off near 220 Hz.
If 91.5/2.83V was due to the unconcistency of the unit tested by Dibirama we can indeed targett 88 dB to 90 ?!
The 87 dB after baffle step is a good result for a cheap driver like that.
Too bad no one has one to test ! Because 75L is not 57 liter.
As you can see I chose an heavily damped load with very few leaks.
With the data of Dibirama (91.5 sensivity), I have 75L with Qtc 0.8 but 57L with Qtc : 0.86 (Qa: 08 ; Ql:10).
The filter for each is a 180 Hz 12Db Bessel, acoustical cut off near 220 Hz.
If 91.5/2.83V was due to the unconcistency of the unit tested by Dibirama we can indeed targett 88 dB to 90 ?!
The 87 dB after baffle step is a good result for a cheap driver like that.
Too bad no one has one to test ! Because 75L is not 57 liter.
As you can see I chose an heavily damped load with very few leaks.
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The only 4" driver we have considered is the SB12MNRX2-25-04.
Quick modeling it in VituixCAD with the same diffraction model as the woofer, midrange low-passed at 350Hz, it will be at about 1mm excursion at full 50W power, hitting 104dB.
12" woofer, at full 100W power is hitting about 106dB 4pi (I think).
I'm not saying the SB12MNRX2 will be the selected midrange, but I don't see how it could be ruled out on technical grounds, until someone does more thorough modeling. [My objections at this point wouldn't be technically matching it to the 12", but rather a personal aesthetic preference for a 5" midrange and price.]
I'm going to go out on a limb and state the following controversial analogy.
Its rather important to favor a cast aluminum basket for a midrange for several significant reasons -
All of these are valid practical reasons why a cast aluminum basket is always preferred over stamped steel, especially if the cost is similar. I'm not saying a stamped basket driver is inferior, but in most if not all cases, the cast basket driver will perform better. The effects of this are directly related to FR linearity, lower distortion and overall more consistent performance.
Most inexpensive drivers from Faital have stamped baskets. They're also overrated in power handling, which is further compromised by the decreased cooling ability of stamped steel.
Plastic baskets are hit and miss. SB plastic baskets are fairly flimsy and resonant. They have even more of a disadvantage in terms of cooling and become softer when heated. The plastic is sometimes reinforced with fibers, which helps alot. The main downside is being prone to cracking when torqued down too hard.
Comparing the 5FE120 to the SB12MNRX2 and NE149W, the Faital mid isn't nearly as good in several ways. The main issue is the increased odd order harmonics. The odd basket shape has another strike against it, but thats more of an issue with countersinking it.
Having heard and worked with all 3 drivers, I can report that the NE149W is the best overall performing and sounding mid by a good margine. The SB12MNRX2 is also a very good driver, but not as capable down low. Its main strength is its sensitivity and it has a well behaved FR on and off axis, even slightly better than that of the Peerless.
If the NE149W was readily available, it would be the best candidate for the job. Don't let the small FR wiggles put you off, thinking it has linearity issues. It sounds more balanced than the SB12MNRX2, which is already very smooth and balanced. The SB is more "to the point" sounding than the Peerless. It has a steal away attention from the other drivers, which may give the impression the woofer is lacking in definition. The NE149W is more flexible, capable of blending easier with most woofers. The harmonics in this mid are distributed more evenly across its passband, making it sound more natural IMO than other cone mids. That along with the sonic characteristics of the neo motor and cone make it so well suited as a cone midrange. It can be easily crossed at 3k, but I'd recommend a 4 dB notch at 6.5k regardless of chosen LP.
Here's a cool design with the NE149W -
https://diy.midwestaudio.club/discussion/682/the-juggernauts-a-high-end-large-format-3-way
Its rather important to favor a cast aluminum basket for a midrange for several significant reasons -
All of these are valid practical reasons why a cast aluminum basket is always preferred over stamped steel, especially if the cost is similar. I'm not saying a stamped basket driver is inferior, but in most if not all cases, the cast basket driver will perform better. The effects of this are directly related to FR linearity, lower distortion and overall more consistent performance.
Most inexpensive drivers from Faital have stamped baskets. They're also overrated in power handling, which is further compromised by the decreased cooling ability of stamped steel.
Plastic baskets are hit and miss. SB plastic baskets are fairly flimsy and resonant. They have even more of a disadvantage in terms of cooling and become softer when heated. The plastic is sometimes reinforced with fibers, which helps alot. The main downside is being prone to cracking when torqued down too hard.
Comparing the 5FE120 to the SB12MNRX2 and NE149W, the Faital mid isn't nearly as good in several ways. The main issue is the increased odd order harmonics. The odd basket shape has another strike against it, but thats more of an issue with countersinking it.
Having heard and worked with all 3 drivers, I can report that the NE149W is the best overall performing and sounding mid by a good margine. The SB12MNRX2 is also a very good driver, but not as capable down low. Its main strength is its sensitivity and it has a well behaved FR on and off axis, even slightly better than that of the Peerless.
If the NE149W was readily available, it would be the best candidate for the job. Don't let the small FR wiggles put you off, thinking it has linearity issues. It sounds more balanced than the SB12MNRX2, which is already very smooth and balanced. The SB is more "to the point" sounding than the Peerless. It has a steal away attention from the other drivers, which may give the impression the woofer is lacking in definition. The NE149W is more flexible, capable of blending easier with most woofers. The harmonics in this mid are distributed more evenly across its passband, making it sound more natural IMO than other cone mids. That along with the sonic characteristics of the neo motor and cone make it so well suited as a cone midrange. It can be easily crossed at 3k, but I'd recommend a 4 dB notch at 6.5k regardless of chosen LP.
Here's a cool design with the NE149W -
https://diy.midwestaudio.club/discussion/682/the-juggernauts-a-high-end-large-format-3-way
It was in K&T 5/2007. All Peerless, SLS 12, HDS 134 Nomex and HDS DM 26.
I haven't read the article in detail but I suppose the measurement was as usually free field.
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https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/schwarzweiss.htm
Height 211cm! Kit is not available any more. Popularity was? But the HDS Nomex mids were spectacular!
Height 211cm! Kit is not available any more. Popularity was? But the HDS Nomex mids were spectacular!
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Didn't understood why the 12br70 has been "disqualified" it's true that if you fallow the normal alignements it needs a big enclosure.
But if you put it in 60L closed it gives F3 F6 F12 : 44 36 26. And I think it is possible to cross it at 800. Do a 0.95 qtc so important ?
By the way, I agree that I prefer the look with a true 5.
For global availability, SBA has to be considered tops. (They also feature ROUND mounting frames -- so much easier to deal with for flush mounting compared to some of the odd shapes of FaitalPRO & other brand mids)
To repeat/cull from previous lists the most favored models (by my impressions of comments here)...
SB12MNRX2
NE123
SB15NRX2C30
NE149W
About the sensitivity. I think 87dB speaker sensitivity is the highest we need to go and what I would assume a good target.. It might be that 84dB could be better. I say that solely based on this software room response prediction. The better part of the woofers range may be seriously decreased depending on placement in the room. If this software is accurate then a lot of mid-bass could be missing. This does not take into account where the listening position is.
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I still think the PRV 4MR60-4 or its newer Neo model sibling should be considered. 86dB AFTER BSC, good to 4kHz with great vocal range resolution, and we had the little Synchaetas blasting one year at InDIYana without highpass in a 2 ltr sealed box and they did just fine. I was indeed surprised they took it like they did.
https://www.parts-express.com/search?keywords=Prv 4mr60&order=relevance:desc
If you are worried about the mount, it's simple. Cut a 4" hole, and kiss the rim with a rabbet bit to allow the frame to sit flush. Button head screws to install the thin steel frame, and done.
https://www.parts-express.com/search?keywords=Prv 4mr60&order=relevance:desc
If you are worried about the mount, it's simple. Cut a 4" hole, and kiss the rim with a rabbet bit to allow the frame to sit flush. Button head screws to install the thin steel frame, and done.
Per my posted review, cut and pasted, the ferrite version:
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Decent extension and output in a fairly tiny box![/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Cons:Not much to look at.Not the easiest to mount because of the underside frame lip.Specs measured did not match spec sheet.Fiber gasket ring is glued in and not easily removed.Pros:Specs as measured made for a lot more versatile applications and better results for me, and were fairly close to each other.Cone is fairly pretty, and well designed for good damping and frequency response.Steel pin-cushion frame does not need recessed.Really sensitive.Can be used full range as indicated, plays to 12k+.Decent bass extension in as little as 2 ltrs, and drops into a Minimus 7 cabinet which is about 2 ltrs.Measurements of 2 samples:Vas: 3.0691/2.7544 ltrsRe: 3.5679/3.4416 ohmsFs: 85.5508/88.9848 HzQts: 0.6454/0.6334Le: 0.1784/0.1760 mHMms: 4.4676/4.6014 gBl: 3.4488/3.5340There is an impedance wiggle at about 1.6k, but it is not audible. In 2 ltrs sealed and stuffed, the F3 is modeled to be 105Hz. On a desktop, or against a wall, the bass is satisfying enough to not need a sub, and easily extends below 100Hz without the vocals getting chesty. The suspension/Xmax does not lend well to a vented alignment- IE- PLEASE DON'T! The breakup is easy to deal with in the xover, and I used the ND25FA-4 with the PRV xover'd at 4.2kHz. The PRV has enough detail to satisfy, and can easily get loud enough running on the DTA-120.This is a nice driver, and it's cheap too!! Read Less[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Decent extension and output in a fairly tiny box![/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Cons:Not much to look at.Not the easiest to mount because of the underside frame lip.Specs measured did not match spec sheet.Fiber gasket ring is glued in and not easily removed.Pros:Specs as measured made for a lot more versatile applications and better results for me, and were fairly close to each other.Cone is fairly pretty, and well designed for good damping and frequency response.Steel pin-cushion frame does not need recessed.Really sensitive.Can be used full range as indicated, plays to 12k+.Decent bass extension in as little as 2 ltrs, and drops into a Minimus 7 cabinet which is about 2 ltrs.Measurements of 2 samples:Vas: 3.0691/2.7544 ltrsRe: 3.5679/3.4416 ohmsFs: 85.5508/88.9848 HzQts: 0.6454/0.6334Le: 0.1784/0.1760 mHMms: 4.4676/4.6014 gBl: 3.4488/3.5340There is an impedance wiggle at about 1.6k, but it is not audible. In 2 ltrs sealed and stuffed, the F3 is modeled to be 105Hz. On a desktop, or against a wall, the bass is satisfying enough to not need a sub, and easily extends below 100Hz without the vocals getting chesty. The suspension/Xmax does not lend well to a vented alignment- IE- PLEASE DON'T! The breakup is easy to deal with in the xover, and I used the ND25FA-4 with the PRV xover'd at 4.2kHz. The PRV has enough detail to satisfy, and can easily get loud enough running on the DTA-120.This is a nice driver, and it's cheap too!! Read Less[/COLOR]
As I now PRV is not distributed in Europe.
A pair of 4mr60 is more than 100 eu here in Europe. It's ok if it is the best one. But not a "low cost"
A pair of 4mr60 is more than 100 eu here in Europe. It's ok if it is the best one. But not a "low cost"
Monacor SP-4-60 pro might be a european substitute (30 EUR per piece at TLHP), it's very similar, but 8 ohm and thus lower sensitivity.
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